|
|
#1
|
||||
|
||||
Proof that the market value for PSA and 'conserved' cards have dropped
Some say that the values for PSA cards with all those altered and 'conserved' cards mislabelled will stay the same.
But the obvious facts before our faces just dawned on me: If you want market proof otherwise, all those cards revealed to be mislabelled on BO are being returned for refunds, which is proof that the card owners (and hobby) say they are worth less. I know of no one on any board or anywhere who claims those cards are worth the same and have don't gone down in market value. Even PSA's official advice is that those cards should be returned for refund, because the cards are worth less than what collector paid. Joe O's PR line on one hand is "Just ignore it you whiners. The rest of you continue going on this wonderful ride with us." However, with the actual specific instances, PSA is saying "The values of these cards has gone down. " Even on the PSA board, a common question is "If my cards are shown to be altered, what do I do to get my money back?" So don't anyone give me this theory that all the mislabelled altered cards will remain the same in value and the hobby will 'absorb and forget' about it. Collectors, card owners, PWCC, the PSA board, all the chat boards and PSA itself have unanimously proclaimed in statement and pocketbook that these cards have already gone down in value, and that mislabelled altered and "conserved" cards are worth less than their previous market valuation and less than cards with the same but correct label grade. With the clear and PSA's admitted inability to correctly label cards and identify altered cards and that a very large number of holdered cards are currently mislabelled, to try to calculate accurate values for PSA cards/grades you have to include the current market values of all these cards that have been returned for refunds. With the plethora of such mislabelled, if yet unknown as such, PSA cards on the market, these outed and devalued cards aren't outliers or to be dismissed from market value calculation but examples of the market value of PSA label grades. Last edited by drcy; 09-20-2019 at 04:29 PM. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Agree !!! Not taking anything away from the BO Board Detectives they have done a amazing job exposing this.... The issue to me is the tens of thousands of altered cards still residing in PSA Holders with number grades which haven't been exposed by blowout. Never buy a holder buy a card :-) |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
You are more likely to get a trimmed card by buying it graded by PSA vs buying it raw. |
#4
|
||||
|
||||
Assuming it's just total incompetence and not being complicit, how does Reza live with himself at this point? It must take a big dose of cognitive dissonance to get up and go to work.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Who said that outed cards have/will hold their value? I've read where some people believe that PSA cards, in general, will hold their value but nowhere did I read that outed cars would..... except for the T206 Wagner which is an anomaly in and of itself.
|
#6
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
If, for a completely arbitrary example, 50 percent of PSA cards are misgraded, you don't calculate the value of cards per label grade by removing the misgraded cards and calculating only the cards that are correctly graded, but calculating the value of all the cards. The margin of error in grading and authenticating isn't removed from financial calculations but an integral part of it. As an admittedly very extreme example, you don't calculate the values of autographs with Coaches Corners COAs by calculating the values as if they were correctly authenticated or only by the ones they got correct. You calculate the values based on what they COAed and their worth. Thus, the misauthenticated PSA cards and the realization of the true market value are market examples of the values of cards in PSA holders and at that label grade. If representative of the accuracy/reliability/true identities and grades of the cards currently in PSA holders (and I'll let others on this and other boards debate that point), a "$1000" PSA 9 card that turns out the be altered and is really worth $30 that is an example or data point where the PSA is worth $30. Many $1000 PSA9 cards out there and currently being bought and sold are actually worth $30, so you cannot say the average value of a PSA 9 is $1000. And as it's realized that more and more PSA9 cards out there are really worth $30, the known value of a PSA9 moves further and further down from the $1,000 and closer to the $30. If PSA can get accurate at grading and alteration detection, then this will change. And maybe they will. But if they can't or don't or won't, the mistakes and BO outed cards are to be calculated into the market values of cards that are currently in PSA holders at a certain labeled grade. In fact, it's right now a nonsensical exercise on its face to try to calculate the condition value of cards in PSA holders because no one knows what are the condition grades of the cards. One certainly can't go by the number on the labels. One might as well try to calculate the condition values of cards in black boxes. However, it is a logically objective, financial and mathematical fact that the average value of the cards themselves are worth less than the values of the grades on the labels. That we know with certainty. Last edited by drcy; 09-20-2019 at 06:10 PM. |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Agree. I have not seen anyone say the outed cards would retain their same value. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Nick and I were thinking the exact same thing Peter.....sad isn't it. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Yes Chuck !!
IMO...Post War is for the most part is at Massive Bubble Levels |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
It's all fun and games...baseball cards LOLOL
Until someone gets hurt. Too bad, so sad. I know, it's only ONE card. What's 15K between collectors for a 64'. There you go, now it's centered!
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1231 Let's all collect what we like and support the fraud!!!!I like Koufax! Come on guys lets go buy buy buy and submit to PSA and watch it POP!!!!!! Last edited by Fuddjcal; 09-21-2019 at 12:18 PM. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Million dollar question to me....Are they, PSA this awful at their Job or is there possibly something bad is going on behind closed doors ? Last edited by Johnny630; 09-21-2019 at 12:44 PM. |
#13
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
That said... this particular Koufax card is so obviously trimmed, that it should be the "poster child" for PSA's ineptitude. Seriously, PSA couldn't even measure it? Even more disturbing is the fact that 80 - 90% of these documented "astounding value gains" apply to preferred customer PWCC. I would really love to know the true relationship PWCC had with PSA. Hopefully the FBI can figure it out. Last edited by perezfan; 09-23-2019 at 02:53 PM. |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
I am going to be amazed if PSA doesn't already know how it is going to prevent previously-graded cards from ever being regraded without disclosure. Their business model cannot survive repeated outings ala Blowout IMO. They may continue to struggle to discern all doctoring, but once they grade a card, they must retain the ability to identify it if it comes in raw again.
Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#16
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I see a paradigm shift in the making. PSA sitting on their hands won't solve the problem and may exacerbate the problem if collectors and the hobby see them as dismissing and ignoring facts and problems. Why would the hobby trust or go to the grading/authenticity opinions of a service that dismisses facts that everyone sees. I think the horse has left the barn as far as PSA's "Move along, nothing to see here" philosophy goes. At this point, I do not believe anyone with knowledge of this, including collectors who still collect and advocate for PSA, will buy and consider PSA cards in the same way as before. Even a PSA collector pausing or saying "let me double-check before I place a bid" or saying "I'll put off buying high-end cards until this settles" affects valuations and the hobby. Exuberant bidding and bidding psychology is an integral part of hobby pricing and bidding, and a slight tapping on the break or "Let me think about this first" affects things. I also think a good number of big spenders are going to change, and likely have changed, their buying, there likely will some big exposures in major auctions, and some Registry folks will likely quit buying high end cards. If, for example, you've had several of your five or more figure cards identified as condition fakes now worth a small fraction of the value, it's going to make you pause if not quit. I don't care how much money you have, and who's going to invest in that system? All you have to do is to go to PSA's own forum, full of PSA homers and advocates who have posted they are either not buying high end graded cards or at least pausing their buying. It's already affected their buying and valuation/consideration of PSA cards-- and that's PSA's home field. Duly note that posters on PSA's board were as disappointed with Joe. O's "Learn to live with it, quit whining" letter as anywhere else. They are PSA fans, but see a major problem and want PSA to fix or seriously address it. The funny thing is there likely will be a buyer's renaissance for early GAI cards. They were long left for dead, but now aren't looking so bad, at least in comparison. Last edited by drcy; 09-23-2019 at 02:20 PM. |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I don't think PSA will change. Or SGC, Or Beckett. They're all in the same group as far as I'm concerned. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
That is the #1 thing that let's me know that they are privy to the scam and probably in on it themselves. Trying to sweep it under the rug is not a good look, IMHO but people continue to eat them up in a love fest. Are people really that dopey? I personally have never seen anything like it in my lifetime yet others could care less. THAT's what I find fascinating. Maybe, just maybe time will tell? Last edited by Fuddjcal; 09-25-2019 at 09:11 AM. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Going to say "Show me the carDfax'
Any accidents? I mean trimming. When did this card/car change hands. What auctions were they sold at Ok guys what would the CardFox look like? Maybe wearing a cardigan sweater and smoking pipe? |
#20
|
||||
|
||||
shockingly...cardfax type service is actually a good idea.
|
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Ahh the days are long over right sir ! Was a lot of fun |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
The ritual satanic abuse panics of the late 80's- early 90's, where people were convicted on testimony that was often wildly absurd. And which probably ended up making some real but less wildly insane acts go unpunished. |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Now it looks like a lot of posters are failing to see what Mr. Cycleback is arguing here. He is stating that we can't exclude altered cards in PSA holders when trying to determine the value of PSA graded cards. He uses a PSA 9 as an example below: Quote:
Another thing that would make it difficult to create a formula is that the number of restored cards varies depending on the grade. IMO, the higher the grade, the more likely the card has been altered. Now I am not saying that you can't find a PSA 3 Frank Robinson rookie that has been altered. Sure, there are some out there, but I believe the percentage is less than a PSA 8. Again, how do we come up with a number here? |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
FS/BO: 14 PSA American Beauty Cards! 460's & 350's - Prices Dropped 5/17 | swanstars | T206 cards B/S/T | 4 | 05-17-2016 01:51 PM |
Various T206s for sale --cards added 2/09 and prices dropped | Kenny Cole | T206 cards B/S/T | 4 | 02-09-2014 05:20 PM |
Lot of 19 1972 Topps cards Price dropped. | buymycards | 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T | 1 | 04-13-2013 06:47 AM |
Price dropped on various cards | Archive | 1920 to 1949 Baseball cards- B/S/T | 0 | 01-15-2009 01:02 PM |
Proof the market is drying up !!!! | Archive | Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions | 20 | 11-16-2002 04:59 PM |