Who are your Inner Circle Hall of Famers?

[skelly423]

I think the general hobby consensus is that cards of the inner circle hall of famers are most likely to appreciate in value. These are the guys who are always included in the "best ever" lists, and are generally famous enough to be known to non-baseball fans. There's always a great debate over who is an inner circle guy, and who is a "regular" hall of famer. Johnson, Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Robinson, and Cobb are obvious inner circle players. I think Gehrig, Mantle, Clemente, and Cy Young are a step behind, but are probably included on most lists.

The next tier is the one that's interesting to me. Is Wagner an inner circle guy, or is he Tris Speaker with a famous baseball card (and is that significant enough to keep him among the inner circle)? Does Mathewson miss the cut because he wasn't as good as Walter Johnson? Does Satchel Paige's Negro League fame overcome the obstacles placed in front of him? Joe DiMaggio had a great career, but was it long enough (I will accept arguments that Marilyn Monroe tips the scales in his favor)? Same question for Koufax (albeit minus Marilyn Monroe)? Are Ted Williams and Warren Spahn's obvious talents enough to overcome the years lost to military service? Does Barry Bonds make the list?

Who are the "fringe" guys you would include on your inner circle list? How many players are on your list?

[Carter08]

I feel like you have it right. I wouldn’t have Gehrig anywhere but in the super core of hall of famers though. I think Wagner makes to cut too but a fair question. Musial is at least on the fringe. In terms of more modern players, Rickey Henderson makes my fringe list. I of course put Spahn there too but I am beyond biased there.

[Carter08]

Let me just add 3 more: Foxx, Ott and Greenberg for the fringe. I put Plank there too but I think that’s a famous card effect.

[Jstottlemire1]

Ruth, Cobb, Wajo, Wagner, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Robinson seems to be most peoples. Ruth, Cobb, Wagner to me.

[ClementeFanOh]

I realize we are dealing with opinion here. It's been my experience that
Mickey Mantle and Roberto Clemente belong, without question, at the
cream of the crop point. They are "1a" not 1b". Their values go only 1
direction- up. Here's an intriguing one as we sit in 2022- Nolan Ryan??

Trent King

PS- in terms of value, Wagner is 1a as well.

[skelly423]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

I realize we are dealing with opinion here. It's been my experience that
Mickey Mantle and Roberto Clemente belong, without question, at the
cream of the crop point. They are "1a" not 1b". Their values go only 1
direction- up. Here's an intriguing one as we sit in 2022- Nolan Ryan??

Trent King

PS- in terms of value, Wagner is 1a as well.

Every baseball player I knew growing up wanted to be Nolan Ryan. Fastest pitcher ever, most strikeouts, most no-hitters, general badass. That said, I don't think he belongs at the very top. The career wins aren't quite there, he never won a major award, and you can't ignore the overwhelming number of walks. In terms of collectability and hobby appeal he's right at the top, but in terms of merit as a Hall of Famer, I don't think he is an inner circle guy.

[ClementeFanOh]

Sean- right. I was talking about increasing card values, which you mentioned
in the original post. The reason I think Ryan is interesting is that, through
card values alone, he's been a recent steady climber. The others have been
decades long climbers. Just talking about card values. Trent King

[skelly423]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Sean- right. I was talking about increasing card values, which you mentioned
in the original post. The reason I think Ryan is interesting is that, through
card values alone, he's been a recent steady climber. The others have been
decades long climbers. Just talking about card values. Trent King

I wasn't intending to go in this direction, but it's an interesting corollary. Strictly from a card collecting perspective, you're 100% correct to include him as an inner circle guy. Excluding rookies and error cards, he's the most expensive card in almost every set he appears in. That's doubly impressive when you consider he's a pitcher, and they always to lag behind hitters when it comes to value.

[Topnotchsy]

If your angle is the hobby, there are some other names that warrant mentioning.

I have an interesting vantage point because I collect game-used lineup cards of just about every player. I have bought collections from umpires and managers, and often look to sell some of them to recoup a portion of the cost.

Admittedly the vast majority are from 1980's on so it is skewed towards more recent times, but there are two names who come up all the time: Don Mattingly and Nolan Ryan.

For every mention of Griffey, Bonds, McGwire, etc there are 10 requests for Mattingly and Ryan. Next behind those two are probably Mariano Rivera, Jose Canseco and Ivan Rodriguez. Frank Thomas as well.

It's not remotely the list of the best players, but they seem to be the most popular and then ones that people are the most interested in.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

If your angle is the hobby, there are some other names that warrant mentioning.

I have an interesting vantage point because I collect game-used lineup cards of just about every player. I have bought collections from umpires and managers, and often look to sell some of them to recoup a portion of the cost.

Admittedly the vast majority are from 1980's on so it is skewed towards more recent times, but there are two names who come up all the time: Don Mattingly and Nolan Ryan.

For every mention of Griffey, Bonds, McGwire, etc there are 10 requests for Mattingly and Ryan. Next behind those two are probably Mariano Rivera, Jose Canseco and Ivan Rodriguez. Frank Thomas as well.

It's not remotely the list of the best players, but they seem to be the most popular and then ones that people are the most interested in.

Mattingly strength makes sense to me - was the Yanks main guy during some tough times for people now in their 40s. Do Doc and Straw get similar love or not from what you’ve seen?

[Touch'EmAll]

I like Satchell Paige. Nolan Ryan. Aaron & Mays. The first 5 into HOF. Cy Young. Ted Williams. Mantle. Maybe Dimaggio. I feel Lefty Grove & Foxx are somewhat under appreciated in the card collecting world. Oh, yeah, for sure put in Gehrig.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by Carter08

Mattingly strength makes sense to me - was the Yanks main guy during some tough times for people now in their 40s. Do Doc and Straw get similar love or not from what you’ve seen?

The 80's Mets have a big following as a team, including Doc and Strawberry. They might have the most rapid fanbase of any team. For some reason, Mets lineup cards also seem to show up less than any other team in my experience.

[oldjudge]

I believe that the inner circle is Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Mays and Aaron. I don’t think a pitcher can be in the inner circle. Next group would include DiMaggio, Williams, Hornsby, Mantle, Jackson, Lajoie, Delahanty, Gehrig, Foxx and Trout.
I think the pitchers have to be grouped separately. Their inner circle would be Young, Johnson and Mathewson.

[Mungo Hungo]

Kid Nichols seems to be unjustly forgotten. Nine straight years of 27 wins or more. Yes, this was 19th Century, but he was still the best pitcher of his time, aside from Cy Young.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I believe that the inner circle is Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Mays and Aaron. I don’t think a pitcher can be in the inner circle. Next group would include DiMaggio, Williams, Hornsby, Mantle, Jackson, Lajoie, Delahanty, Gehrig, Foxx and Trout.
I think the pitchers have to be grouped separately. Their inner circle would be Young, Johnson and Mathewson.

I struggle with the idea that just 25% of the inner circle HOF have played in the last 85+ years. Major league baseball is 146 years old but 75% of the best players played their entire careers in the first 40% of its lifetime? And just one player in the inner circle or next group debuted in the last 65+ years?

[LincolnVT]

I would agree with this, but would put Jackson (non-HOF) in the inner outer circle collectibility wise.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I believe that the inner circle is Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Mays and Aaron. I don’t think a pitcher can be in the inner circle. Next group would include DiMaggio, Williams, Hornsby, Mantle, Jackson, Lajoie, Delahanty, Gehrig, Foxx and Trout.
I think the pitchers have to be grouped separately. Their inner circle would be Young, Johnson and Mathewson.

[the 'stache]

Within the Hall of Fame, these guys reside in my “pantheon of the immortals”. I might forget a player or two-getting old and senile is the suck-but this should be pretty close:

Babe Ruth
Walter Johnson
Ty Cobb
Honus Wagner
Christy Mathewson
Rogers Hornsby
Lou Gehrig
Lefty Grove
Stan Musial
Jackie Robinson
Joe DiMaggio
Yogi Berra
Ted Williams
Mickey Mantle
Hank Aaron
Roberto Clemente
Willie Mays
Bob Gibson
Tom Seaver
Johnny Bench
Joe Morgan
Mike Schmidt
Pedro Martinez
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson

Just as an aside, anybody compiling a list without #42 needs to go back to the beginning again, and re-think who they’re putting on it, and who is being excluded. Respectfully, Jackie Robinson is an all-time great. Beyond the unquantifiable levels of grace and courage he exhibited in being confronted by the most repugnant form of racism imaginable, turning the other cheek and maintaining his promise of silence to Branch Rickey, enduring taunts, slurs, and physical abuse from opposing players (I’m looking at you, Enos Slaughter), Robinson was a transformative talent. So much is made about how Babe Ruth transformed the game-and he did. Ruth was smart enough, and physically gifted, to recognize and take advantage of the changes made to the game, when the ball started getting changed out, when the spitball was outlawed, etc. Ruth would have been an all-time great in any era. But so would Jackie. Jackie’s play, representative of what was going on in the Negro Leagues for so long, completely changed the Major League games. He was a runaway train that couldn’t be stopped. He was a monster offensive player, and a plus defender. The man reached the Majors at age 28, retired after his age 37 season, playing a comparatively short time in the Majors (1,416 games and 5,949 plate appearances), and he still put up 63.9 bWAR. A single season of 7-8 WAR is considered MVP caliber. Robinson was a top 2-3 player in baseball.

1951, 9.7 WAR
1949, 9.3 WAR
1952, 8.4 WAR
1950, 7.3 WAR
1953, 6.9 WAR


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[skelly423]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Just as an aside, anybody compiling a list without #42 needs to go back to the beginning again, and re-think who they’re putting on it, and who is being excluded. Respectfully, Jackie Robinson is an all-time great. Beyond the unquantifiable levels of grace and courage he exhibited in being confronted by the most repugnant form of racism imaginable, turning the other cheek and maintaining his promise of silence to Branch Rickey, enduring taunts, slurs, and physical abuse from opposing players (I’m looking at you, Enos Slaughter), Robinson was a transformative talent. So much is made about how Babe Ruth transformed the game-and he did. Ruth was smart enough, and physically gifted, to recognize and take advantage of the changes made to the game, when the ball started getting changed out, when the spitball was outlawed, etc. Ruth would have been an all-time great in any era. But so would Jackie. Jackie’s play, representative of what was going on in the Negro Leagues for so long, completely changed the Major League games. He was a runaway train that couldn’t be stopped. He was a monster offensive player, and a plus defender. The man reached the Majors at age 28, retired after his age 37 season, playing a comparatively short time in the Majors (1,416 games and 5,949 plate appearances), and he still put up 63.9 bWAR. A single season of 7-8 WAR is considered MVP caliber. Robinson was a top 2-3 player in baseball.

1951, 9.7 WAR
1949, 9.3 WAR
1952, 8.4 WAR
1950, 7.3 WAR
1953, 6.9 WAR


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Couldn’t agree more. On talent alone he’s a top 20 player. On historical importance he is number 1, and the gap between him and Number 2 would make Secretariat blush.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by skelly423

Couldn’t agree more. On talent alone he’s a top 20 player. On historical importance he is number 1, and the gap between him and Number 2 would make Secretariat blush.

I know this is an unpopular take on it, but Robinson was historically important largely because he was selected by Branch Rickey to be so. Could've been one of several black ballplayers with superior talent and extreme mental toughness, and there were guys like that who came later, like Doby, Aaron, Mays, Campanella, Newcombe, George Crowe, and later Clemente, Frank, Gibson, and etc.

I'm not taking anything away from Robinson or his historical significance, just saying Rickey was the one who had the ability and the will to break the color line, and he had several viable options. He chose Robinson and it was an excellent choice. But there were other black players, some who were better talent wise.

On talent, Ruth was the most important baseball player in history.

[skelly423]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I know this is an unpopular take on it, but Robinson was historically important largely because he was selected by Branch Rickey to be so. Could've been one of several black ballplayers with superior talent and extreme mental toughness, and there were guys like that who came later, like Doby, Aaron, Mays, Campanella, Newcombe, George Crowe, and later Clemente, Frank, Gibson, and etc.

I'm not taking anything away from Robinson or his historical significance, just saying Rickey was the one who had the ability and the will to break the color line, and he had several viable options. He chose Robinson and it was an excellent choice. But there were other black players, some who were better talent wise.

On talent, Ruth was the most important baseball player in history.

I won’t argue he was more talented than Ruth, and I don’t think anyone does. I’ll give you Aaron and Mays as well (again I don’t think you’ll get any debate there). I think my claim he is top 20 talent is legitimate. He put up 61 WAR in 10 MLB seasons, under the most extreme pressure a player ever faced, and those years don’t include any of his prime age 22-27 years. His WAR in his 10 seasons beat Joe DiMaggio’s WAR over the last 10 seasons of DiMaggio’s career (which began at age 24). His pioneer status rightfully draws the attention, but Robinson was a much better player than he gets credit for.

[obcbobd]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I know this is an unpopular take on it, but Robinson was historically important largely because he was selected by Branch Rickey to be so. Could've been one of several black ballplayers with superior talent and extreme mental toughness, and there were guys like that who came later, like Doby, Aaron, Mays, Campanella, Newcombe, George Crowe, and later Clemente, Frank, Gibson, and etc.

I'm not taking anything away from Robinson or his historical significance, just saying Rickey was the one who had the ability and the will to break the color line, and he had several viable options. He chose Robinson and it was an excellent choice. But there were other black players, some who were better talent wise.

On talent, Ruth was the most important baseball player in history.

Robinson broke the color line. None of the others did. Maybe they could have maybe not. But they didn't.

Maybe another guy could have painted the Sistine Chapel. They didn't, Michelangelo did - because the Pope selected him. Perhaps, like Rickey, the Pope knew what he was doing.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by obcbobd

Robinson broke the color line. None of the others did. Maybe they could have maybe not. But they didn't.

Maybe another guy could have painted the Sistine Chapel. They didn't, Michelangelo did - because the Pope selected him. Perhaps, like Rickey, the Pope knew what he was doing.

Your analogy is flawed because the Sistine Chapel's fame is 100% due to the skill employed by the best artisan of the day... not because it was painted. Integration is a watershed moment in baseball because somebody did it.

If Rickey chooses to make Campanella the guy to break the color line, Robinson would be a borderline HOFer. Roy won 3 MVP awards and was the better player, and that's just one example.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Within the Hall of Fame, these guys reside in my “pantheon of the immortals”. I might forget a player or two-getting old and senile is the suck-but this should be pretty close:
Babe Ruth
Walter Johnson
Ty Cobb
Honus Wagner
Christy Mathewson
Rogers Hornsby
Lou Gehrig
Lefty Grove
Stan Musial
Jackie Robinson
Joe DiMaggio
Yogi Berra
Ted Williams
Mickey Mantle
Hank Aaron
Roberto Clemente
Willie Mays
Bob Gibson
Tom Seaver
Johnny Bench
Joe Morgan
Mike Schmidt
Pedro Martinez
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson

Just as an aside, anybody compiling a list without #42 needs to go back to the beginning again, and re-think who they’re putting on it, and who is being excluded. Respectfully, Jackie Robinson is an all-time great. Beyond the unquantifiable levels of grace and courage he exhibited in being confronted by the most repugnant form of racism imaginable, turning the other cheek and maintaining his promise of silence to Branch Rickey, enduring taunts, slurs, and physical abuse from opposing players (I’m looking at you, Enos Slaughter), Robinson was a transformative talent. So much is made about how Babe Ruth transformed the game-and he did. Ruth was smart enough, and physically gifted, to recognize and take advantage of the changes made to the game, when the ball started getting changed out, when the spitball was outlawed, etc. Ruth would have been an all-time great in any era. But so would Jackie. Jackie’s play, representative of what was going on in the Negro Leagues for so long, completely changed the Major League games. He was a runaway train that couldn’t be stopped. He was a monster offensive player, and a plus defender. The man reached the Majors at age 28, retired after his age 37 season, playing a comparatively short time in the Majors (1,416 games and 5,949 plate appearances), and he still put up 63.9 bWAR. A single season of 7-8 WAR is considered MVP caliber. Robinson was a top 2-3 player in baseball.

1951, 9.7 WAR
1949, 9.3 WAR
1952, 8.4 WAR
1950, 7.3 WAR
1953, 6.9 WAR


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You can't leave Grover Alexander off any list of pitchers, IMO. Or Tris Speaker off any list of everyday players. Probably Collins. Foxx.

[VoodooChild]

Just for fun, I asked five guys at my gym (one was actually a 2nd round MLB draft pick in 2006) if they knew who Walter Johnson is, and if so, what is his occupation. All of the guys are in their late 20's/early 30's and none of them knew him. Their occupation guesses included Politician/Senator and NASCAR driver.

I'm not sure that I 100% understand the question, but your average non Pre-War card collectors probably consider the following as "tier 1" HOFers: Ruth, Cobb, Cy Young, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Jackie Robinson, Mantle, Clemente, Mays, Aaron, Nolan Ryan, Henderson, Ripken, Griffey, and Jeter. Basically guys who are known in pop culture. Rose, McGwire, Bonds, and Clemons would count too if they were in.

My best guess for "tier 2" from average fans today could include Yogi Berra, Seaver, Reggie Jackson, Schmidt, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and Mariano Rivera. They might know Wagner for the "million dollar" card but I doubt they know how good he actually was.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by VoodooChild

Just for fun, I asked five guys at my gym (one was actually a 2nd round MLB draft pick in 2006) if they knew who Walter Johnson is, and if so, what is his occupation. All of the guys are in their late 20's/early 30's and none of them knew him. Their occupation guesses included Politician/Senator and NASCAR driver.

I'm not sure that I 100% understand the question, but your average non Pre-War card collectors probably consider the following as "tier 1" HOFers: Ruth, Cobb, Cy Young, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Jackie Robinson, Mantle, Clemente, Mays, Aaron, Nolan Ryan, Henderson, Ripken, Griffey, and Jeter. Basically guys who are known in pop culture. Rose, McGwire, Bonds, and Clemons would count too if they were in.

My best guess for "tier 2" from average fans today could include Yogi Berra, Seaver, Reggie Jackson, Schmidt, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and Mariano Rivera. They might know Wagner for the "million dollar" card but I doubt they know how good he actually was.

That is so true about Wagner. I have collected for around 35 years and if not for this site I considered him the Billy Ripken of old cards. A nobody player known for one card.