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Who are your Inner Circle Hall of Famers?
I think the general hobby consensus is that cards of the inner circle hall of famers are most likely to appreciate in value. These are the guys who are always included in the "best ever" lists, and are generally famous enough to be known to non-baseball fans. There's always a great debate over who is an inner circle guy, and who is a "regular" hall of famer. Johnson, Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Robinson, and Cobb are obvious inner circle players. I think Gehrig, Mantle, Clemente, and Cy Young are a step behind, but are probably included on most lists.
The next tier is the one that's interesting to me. Is Wagner an inner circle guy, or is he Tris Speaker with a famous baseball card (and is that significant enough to keep him among the inner circle)? Does Mathewson miss the cut because he wasn't as good as Walter Johnson? Does Satchel Paige's Negro League fame overcome the obstacles placed in front of him? Joe DiMaggio had a great career, but was it long enough (I will accept arguments that Marilyn Monroe tips the scales in his favor)? Same question for Koufax (albeit minus Marilyn Monroe)? Are Ted Williams and Warren Spahn's obvious talents enough to overcome the years lost to military service? Does Barry Bonds make the list? Who are the "fringe" guys you would include on your inner circle list? How many players are on your list? |
I feel like you have it right. I wouldn’t have Gehrig anywhere but in the super core of hall of famers though. I think Wagner makes to cut too but a fair question. Musial is at least on the fringe. In terms of more modern players, Rickey Henderson makes my fringe list. I of course put Spahn there too but I am beyond biased there.
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Let me just add 3 more: Foxx, Ott and Greenberg for the fringe. I put Plank there too but I think that’s a famous card effect.
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"inner circle" value appreciation
I realize we are dealing with opinion here. It's been my experience that
Mickey Mantle and Roberto Clemente belong, without question, at the cream of the crop point. They are "1a" not 1b". Their values go only 1 direction- up. Here's an intriguing one as we sit in 2022- Nolan Ryan?? Trent King PS- in terms of value, Wagner is 1a as well. |
Ruth, Cobb, Wajo, Wagner, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, Robinson seems to be most peoples. Ruth, Cobb, Wagner to me.
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Sean- right. I was talking about increasing card values, which you mentioned
in the original post. The reason I think Ryan is interesting is that, through card values alone, he's been a recent steady climber. The others have been decades long climbers. Just talking about card values. Trent King |
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Sean- yes indeed. Nolan's not my favorite, but he was the man. "The Express".
I'll never forget him showing Robin Ventura why it's not smart to charge the mound:) Trent King |
I presume betting with the current hobby consensus is a pretty bad strategy for ROI. If you could predict which players will be considered much better a generation from now than they currently are, that's the real trick. But if you're asking me who the best players ever were? Babe Ruth, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, and Roger Clemens.
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Opinions only when it comes to these questions.
For me, Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Williams, Koufax are the innner circle all-time greatest, whose cards I value over all the others. IMO, after about 1970, no one can carry these guys' jock straps. Baseball went straight to Hell from that point on. In my opinion. |
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Bonds, Ruth and Williams are the three best hitters in history (yes, I know Bonds isn't in the HOF, just saying) so Teddy Ballgame is an automatic for me. I'd say the no-brainers are
Position Players: Ruth Gehrig Foxx Williams Musial Aaron Mays Henderson Hornsby Collins Lajoie Wagner Schmidt Bench Berra Robinson: Jackie and Frank Morgan Cobb Mantle Ott Speaker Brett Pitchers: Johnson: Walter and Randy Spahn Grove Mathewson Young Alexander Seaver Carlton Maddux Gibson Rivera I've probably forgotten a few. |
Robinson...
The one with a WAR over 100, with almost 3000 hits, and almost 600 home runs? I think you guys are talking about the one with a WAR just over 60, with just over 1500 hits and just under 150 home runs.... Jackie was a gentleman (not that Frank wasn't), well educated, and the right man for Rickey's integration movement. Jackie went through hell. But that's not to say that Frank Robinson didn't. Frank about doubled the baseball results that Jackie did. They're both HOFers, but if one of them is gonna be in the inner circle I'd lean toward that being Frank. Wagner, W Johnson, Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Hornsby, Mathewson, C Young, E Collins. Williams, Mays, Musial, Ott, Foxx, Spahn, Speaker, Lajoie, and Old Pete Alexander. Tempting to add McGraw, he was everything. Much of it was long ago and not remembered. Someone who gets no love in all of these comparisons is Eddie Collins. A third of his At Bats resulted in hits. Add for consideration 1499 walks. He was a hitting, walking, base stealing, run scoring, fielding machine. All time leader in sacrafice hits. He was a White Sox good guy when the Black Sox were throwing the World Series; more people would remember him if he'd been among the Black Sox. |
Wagner is absolutely inner circle. He was the greatest player of his age and one of the inaugural 5 inducted into the HOF. He is much much more than a good player with a baseball card. And, I think Joe Jackson is deep “inner circle” re cards, even though he is not an HOFer
With respect to Pre-War (WWII), I think these are your top tier, and almost every iconic/most expensive card contains one of these people Ruth Cobb Jackson Wagner Mathewson Johnson Gehrig Young DiMaggio (goes into vintage) Williams (goes into vintage) |
I would agree with McGraw, Eddie Collins too. Collins continues to get respect far below his statistical performance.
Robinson, Clemente and Ryan are hobby inner circle, but not performance inner circle. Clemente has almost the same statistical value as his contemporary Al Kaline. Obvious HOFer but nobody wants to put him in the inner circle. Jackie ends up being overrated and underrated at the same time somehow. He’s not the best 2B of all time, but he’s probably like 7-12 off resume, an obvious statistical hall of famer but his actual performance is rarely discussed and the focus almost solely put on being a historical first instead. |
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I would change just one player from each... * Replace Henderson with DiMaggio, Greenberg or Griffey Jr. * Replace Rivera with Walsh, Plank or Hubbell Just my meager .02 |
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Maranville, not the small village in France, the shortstop.;)
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Luca Doncic
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DiMaggio, Griffey and Plank are top-tier. Pujols is not eligible yet. I forgot about King Carl and I collect him. D'oh! Sorry about that, your majesty. https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20Hubbell.jpg ETA: heh, that's exactly what I did, Mark. |
Ah I was thinking all time greats so was premature on a couple of the additions. Nice Hubbell, that's a work of art.
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If your angle is the hobby, there are some other names that warrant mentioning.
I have an interesting vantage point because I collect game-used lineup cards of just about every player. I have bought collections from umpires and managers, and often look to sell some of them to recoup a portion of the cost. Admittedly the vast majority are from 1980's on so it is skewed towards more recent times, but there are two names who come up all the time: Don Mattingly and Nolan Ryan. For every mention of Griffey, Bonds, McGwire, etc there are 10 requests for Mattingly and Ryan. Next behind those two are probably Mariano Rivera, Jose Canseco and Ivan Rodriguez. Frank Thomas as well. It's not remotely the list of the best players, but they seem to be the most popular and then ones that people are the most interested in. |
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I like Satchell Paige. Nolan Ryan. Aaron & Mays. The first 5 into HOF. Cy Young. Ted Williams. Mantle. Maybe Dimaggio. I feel Lefty Grove & Foxx are somewhat under appreciated in the card collecting world. Oh, yeah, for sure put in Gehrig.
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Within the Hall of Fame, these guys reside in my “pantheon of the immortals”. I might forget a player or two-getting old and senile is the suck-but this should be pretty close:
Babe Ruth Walter Johnson Ty Cobb Honus Wagner Christy Mathewson Rogers Hornsby Lou Gehrig Lefty Grove Stan Musial Jackie Robinson Joe DiMaggio Yogi Berra Ted Williams Mickey Mantle Hank Aaron Roberto Clemente Willie Mays Bob Gibson Tom Seaver Johnny Bench Joe Morgan Mike Schmidt Pedro Martinez Greg Maddux Randy Johnson Just as an aside, anybody compiling a list without #42 needs to go back to the beginning again, and re-think who they’re putting on it, and who is being excluded. Respectfully, Jackie Robinson is an all-time great. Beyond the unquantifiable levels of grace and courage he exhibited in being confronted by the most repugnant form of racism imaginable, turning the other cheek and maintaining his promise of silence to Branch Rickey, enduring taunts, slurs, and physical abuse from opposing players (I’m looking at you, Enos Slaughter), Robinson was a transformative talent. So much is made about how Babe Ruth transformed the game-and he did. Ruth was smart enough, and physically gifted, to recognize and take advantage of the changes made to the game, when the ball started getting changed out, when the spitball was outlawed, etc. Ruth would have been an all-time great in any era. But so would Jackie. Jackie’s play, representative of what was going on in the Negro Leagues for so long, completely changed the Major League games. He was a runaway train that couldn’t be stopped. He was a monster offensive player, and a plus defender. The man reached the Majors at age 28, retired after his age 37 season, playing a comparatively short time in the Majors (1,416 games and 5,949 plate appearances), and he still put up 63.9 bWAR. A single season of 7-8 WAR is considered MVP caliber. Robinson was a top 2-3 player in baseball. 1951, 9.7 WAR 1949, 9.3 WAR 1952, 8.4 WAR 1950, 7.3 WAR 1953, 6.9 WAR Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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I'm not taking anything away from Robinson or his historical significance, just saying Rickey was the one who had the ability and the will to break the color line, and he had several viable options. He chose Robinson and it was an excellent choice. But there were other black players, some who were better talent wise. On talent, Ruth was the most important baseball player in history. |
Just for fun, I asked five guys at my gym (one was actually a 2nd round MLB draft pick in 2006) if they knew who Walter Johnson is, and if so, what is his occupation. All of the guys are in their late 20's/early 30's and none of them knew him. Their occupation guesses included Politician/Senator and NASCAR driver.
I'm not sure that I 100% understand the question, but your average non Pre-War card collectors probably consider the following as "tier 1" HOFers: Ruth, Cobb, Cy Young, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Jackie Robinson, Mantle, Clemente, Mays, Aaron, Nolan Ryan, Henderson, Ripken, Griffey, and Jeter. Basically guys who are known in pop culture. Rose, McGwire, Bonds, and Clemons would count too if they were in. My best guess for "tier 2" from average fans today could include Yogi Berra, Seaver, Reggie Jackson, Schmidt, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and Mariano Rivera. They might know Wagner for the "million dollar" card but I doubt they know how good he actually was. |
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I believe that the inner circle is Cobb, Ruth, Wagner, Mays and Aaron. I don’t think a pitcher can be in the inner circle. Next group would include DiMaggio, Williams, Hornsby, Mantle, Jackson, Lajoie, Delahanty, Gehrig, Foxx and Trout.
I think the pitchers have to be grouped separately. Their inner circle would be Young, Johnson and Mathewson. |
Kid Nichols seems to be unjustly forgotten. Nine straight years of 27 wins or more. Yes, this was 19th Century, but he was still the best pitcher of his time, aside from Cy Young.
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The list would be different if steroid users were included. Then Bonds would have made the inner circle and Aroid the next level.
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My inner sanctum players are the guys I rooted for as a kid. TP Terry Puhl, Jose Cruz, Bob Watson, JR Richard, Cesar Cedeno, etc. Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio are not in my inner circle, because they are my age, and I view them as peers, and not heroes.
Here's the top 10 in WAR...(the inner circle) Ruth Johnson Young Bonds Mays Cobb Aaron Clemens Speaker Wagner The problem with Bonds, Aaron and Clemens is that they don't have any cool cards to collect. The story at the gym where no-one knew who Walter Johnson was, was the point I was trying to make about Doncic in the other thread, not that he's not good, he's not famous. George Washington is famous, and even he has a Q-rating of about 44. |
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https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...es%20Aaron.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...an%20Aaron.JPG https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ps%20Aaron.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...stolen%201.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0Aaron%201.JPG https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0Aaron%201.JPG https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...0Super%201.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...3%20HRLDRS.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ron%20num1.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ry%20Aaron.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...n%20Royale.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...es%20Bonds.jpg https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Pettitte.jpg |
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Maybe another guy could have painted the Sistine Chapel. They didn't, Michelangelo did - because the Pope selected him. Perhaps, like Rickey, the Pope knew what he was doing. |
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There was a time when Aaron's 1976 RB was the best card in my collection. It's almost like they made the list, and created a stat called "WAR" to back it up with a math formula. 15 Alexander 16 Arod 17 Nichols 18 Gehrig 19 Rickey Henderson 20 Ott 21 Mantle |
58 First Ballot Hall-of-Famers
David Ortiz became the 58th player elected to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot. Here's a link to the list: https://www.mlb.com/news/first-ballo...ers-c300943350
Why not decide how many you want in your Pantheon and start striking names off this list? It would be the "eyeball test HOF," but maybe also the "vote-with-your-heart HOF" too. Interesting that, according to the list, there were no first ballot HOFer's between 1936 and 1962. Can this be true? Not DiMaggio? Answer in supplementary article from MLB on ten greats not selected on first ballot: https://www.mlb.com/news/hall-of-fam...t-first-ballot |
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How "tight" is the "inner-circle" supposed to be? I look at any player that has reached the basic milestones (500HRs, 3000H, 300W) are inner-circle. I'm sure other milestone criteria could be used. I suppose PED users are considered if you don't mind adding them.
Then there are those that haven't hit any of the milestones like Gehrig or DiMaggio that some might consider for their inner-circle. Bottom line, it would be fun to put together a survey of this board to see who their top 50 or even 100 players are. Provide a rank number and the end result would be the highest ranking players. My guess is that a lot of the players selected by the old veterans committee wouldn't make the cut. |
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Chad |
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If Rickey chooses to make Campanella the guy to break the color line, Robinson would be a borderline HOFer. Roy won 3 MVP awards and was the better player, and that's just one example. |
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