Could Brown Lenox Be Related To AB 460?

[Pat R]

They're so scarce it could just be a coincidence but all 22 confirmed Brown
Lenox subjects are among the 75 AB 460 subjects.

[Pat R]

Yes I am bumping a thread that is over 8 years old with no posts in it but it's to finally share some information that I have been keeping to myself mostly for selfish reasons.

When I posted this thread I already knew that a large percentage of the confirmed brown Lenox were from the group of the 28 350/460 subjects that were printed with both the American Beauty 350 no frame and American beauty 460 backs. I think at the time it was it was 17 of the 22 confirmed brown Lenox cards, as of today I have it at 22 of 31 confirmed brown Lenox that are from that group of 28 subjects.

What I didn't know at the time but discovered in a week or two after posting this thread is that (in my opinion) that specific group of 28 subjects were only printed with brown Lenox backs and were not printed with a black Lenox back. I have yet to see one of those subjects with a black Lenox back.


Here is my list of confirmed brown Lenox with the subjects from the group of 28 in bold. Except for Doyle and Davis the rest of the subjects are from the 460 only series and are found with both brown and black Lenox backs.

Bradley (with bat)
Burch (fielding)
Chase (holding trophy)
Cobb (bat off)
Conroy (with bat)
Crawford (with bat)
Davis (Davis on front)
Doyle (with bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (both hands)
Jordan (batting)
Lajoie (with bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (bending over)
Leifield (batting
Manning (pitching
Marquard (pitching)
Mcquillan (with bat)
Merkle (throwing)
Overall (hands at face level)
Pfeister (throwing
Schlei (portrait)
Seymour (throwing
Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Steinfeldt (with bat)
Tinker (bat off)
Wagner (bat on right)
Willetts
Willis (batting)
Wiltse (portrait)


I have images of the following that are possible brown Lenox but I would have to see better scans or have them in hand to be sure.

Bender (no trees)
Downey (batting)
Griffith (batting)
Schlei (batting)
Tinker (bat on)
White (pitching
Willis (throwing)

The Griffith and Schlei I'm more sure of than the rest the images I have of the others are not very good.

[Leon]

Nice research, Pat!
.

[tedzan]

Back in July 2017, I posted my theory regarding the Brown LENOX phenomena. And this is it, Check-it-out......


The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects was with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT cards was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the
printing of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......


350/460 series....Group B



Brown LENOX......a total of 25 (or 26) subjects have been confirmed.


350/460 series.....19 (or 20) subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder) ..................remains to be seen ?
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)



T80 cards




So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.


The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)


Let's see your T206 brown LENOX cards. Show them if you have them.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

Furthermore......

Since my above stated theory (circa 2017), I'm batting 1.000. Approx. 7 (or 8) new Brown LENOX cards have been discovered....all of which having conformed to my theory.

NOTE....74 T206's in the set were printed with the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back, however only these 28 guys from the [B]350/460 series are printed with the AB 460 back.

350/460 series....Group B (AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards). The remaining 46 are from the 460-only series.





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Back in July 2017, I posted my theory regarding the Brown LENOX phenomena. And this is it, Check-it-out......


The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects was with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT cards was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the
printing of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......


350/460 series....Group B



Brown LENOX......a total of 25 (or 26) subjects have been confirmed.


350/460 series.....19 (or 20) subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder) ..................remains to be seen ?
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)



T80 cards




So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.


The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)


Let's see your T206 brown LENOX cards. Show them if you have them.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Tinker (bat off)
Tinker Bat Off.jpg

[tedzan]

Ryan

You provided Brown LENOX confirmation regarding Tinker and Jennings (one hand), and I forgot to include them in my list.

Stay young my friend......my mind is beginning to slip.


So, here is the current complete lists of 27 brown LENOX cards with respect to their Series......

350/460 Series......

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jennings (two hands)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

460-only Series......

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


My expectations are that 8 more will eventually be discovered.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Leon

Nice research, Pat!
.

Thanks Leon but apparently it's Ted's thread and theory now I guess.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Thanks Leon but apparently it's Ted's thread and theory now I guess.

It's your thread, Pat. Ted had information prior also.
You have done more research than 99.5% of collectors. Likewise, with Ted.
I have always considered the forum a collaborative effort.
.

[FrankWakefield]

Ted, Pat, double thanks to both of you.


As to the printer failing to change the ink for the backs... I'd think it was a conscious decision. It's a pain to scrape the previous ink out of the pan, and then clean everything. And then put different ink in there. It would be easier, take less time, and slightly more cost effective to use what brown ink you had in the pan, and then add black as the brown was used. There may be cards out there that are mainly black, but just ever so slightly brownish black.

[tedzan]

A "true-blue" Brown OLD MILL back which most likely resulted when the printer was running tests with the brown ink
he printed the brown HINDU Southern Leaguers.
Furthermore, on this card he also ran printer's tests using the red Factory #649 overprint.


Incidently, this card was in my collection years ago. I believe Ryan is the current owner now.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

The brown Old Mills are very different when comparing them to Brown Lenox.
The Old Mills are a consistent brown while the Lenox are found in several different shades of brown.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

A "true-blue" Brown OLD MILL back which most likely resulted when the printer was running tests with the brown ink
he printed the brown HINDU Southern Leaguers.
Furthermore, on this card he also ran printer's tests using the red Factory #649 overprint.


Incidently, this card was in my collection years ago. I believe Ryan is the current owner now.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted I'm curious when did you have the Greminger? This is the info that I have on it.
It was purchased by a collector many years ago from Lew Lipset. That collector had it until it was sold in a 2010 REA auction where it was purchased by David Hall who had it until it was sold in a 2019 Heritage auction where it was purchased by Ryan.

Were you the person that purchased it from Lew Lipset?

[Pat R]

Mike emailed me about his Schlei, he louped it and he is going to post about that.

Here is his Schlei on the right compared to this Schlei black Lenox on the left in the 2nd image.

Schlei Black.jpg

Schlei Black back.jpg

[MVSNYC]

Prior to 24 hours ago, my son and I were very happy with our "Black" Lenox Schlei. I had never thought of it being Brown, thus had never thoroughly looked at it under a loupe. After seeing Pat's comments about the card potentially being Brown, I decided to look at it more closely. It wasn't the typical Jet Black you see with Lenox, or Carolina Brights. It definitely leaned dark dark Brown, not a true Black. It had a warm hue to it, and felt more "espresso". Pat's side by side comparison above with a true Black example is an accurate visual. I've owned many Lenox's over the years, Black and Brown, after my close analysis in hand, under a loupe, this one leans dark Brown.

Here's a few more images, one is next to a Carolina Brights (true Black), and the others are close ups of the Schlei, adjacent to the black insert in the SGC holder.

(Thanks to Pat for pointing it out and encouraging me take a deeper look at it. If I sell or trade it (which I may, as I already have another Brown Lenox), I will give Pat a little something, as a gesture.)

[Pat R]

Hey Mike happy to help no need to give me anything if you sell or trade it.

The brown Lenox especially the ones with the shade/tint like your Schlei can be difficult to tell until you compare them with a Black Lenox.

[Pat R]

Now that the auction is over I will re-post some of the information that several people asked to remove.

I believe that all of the 350/460 print group 3 subjects were printed with brown ink only and that any of them in the pop reports listed as black are incorrectly labeled.

Davis - Copy.jpg

Doyle (with bat) - Copy.jpg

Lake (no ball) - Copy.jpg

Davis comparison.jpg

Doyle comparison.jpg

Lake comparison.jpg

The 460 only print group 4 subjects however were printed with both black and brown.

Schlei (portrait) - Copy.jpg

Schlei (portrait) back - Copy.jpg


I also want to add that I think it's wrong to create a fake provenance or ownership of any card but especially a card like the Greminger. I know if I owned the Greminger I would want to know the history of the card.

I don't know the exact year but it was originally sold in a Lew Lipset auction many year ago and was purchased by Louis Despres who had it until it was sold in a 2010 REA auction where it was purchased by David Hall who had it until it was sold it in a 2019 Heritage where it was purchased by Ryan who as far as I know still has it.

Originally Posted by tedzan

A "true-blue" Brown OLD MILL back which most likely resulted when the printer was running tests with the brown ink
he printed the brown HINDU Southern Leaguers.
Furthermore, on this card he also ran printer's tests using the red Factory #649 overprint.


Incidently, this card was in my collection years ago. I believe Ryan is the current owner now.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Leon]

Nice comparison of the backs, Pat.

Originally Posted by Pat R

Now that the auction is over I will re-post some of the information that several people asked to remove.

I believe that all of the 350/460 print group 3 subjects were printed with brown ink only and that any of them in the pop reports listed as black are incorrectly labeled.

Attachment 594389

Attachment 594391

Attachment 594392

Attachment 594393

Attachment 594394

Attachment 594395

The 460 only print group 4 subjects however were printed with both black and brown.

Attachment 594396

Attachment 594397


I also want to add that I think it's wrong to create a fake provenance or ownership of any card but especially a card like the Greminger. I know if I owned the Greminger I would want to know the history of the card.

I don't know the exact year but it was originally sold in a Lew Lipset auction many year ago and was purchased by Louis Despres who had it until it was sold in a 2010 REA auction where it was purchased by David Hall who had it until it was sold it in a 2019 Heritage where it was purchased by Ryan who as far as I know still has it.