"The Scandal" Turns 3

[Peter_Spaeth]

This week marks the third anniversary of the Blowout thread on the PWCC 1952 Topps Mantle that quickly morphed into a far-reaching scandal with every day seeming to bring new accusations against card doctors and their enablers, and outed cards in droves. There were stories in the national press, an FBI investigation, subpoenas at the National, astonishing ostrich acts by TPGs and the culprits themselves, and so forth.

So, where are we after 3 years? The cynic in me is tempted to say, exactly as we were before.

To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, there have been no indictments or guilty pleas.

Speculation is that Brent Huigens, who had been cooperating with the FBI, decided not to. But again, I don't know that.

I also don't know the status of the investigation itself. I certainly hope it's ongoing, although I can understand why some would think otherwise.

More importantly, though, how many have changed their behavior as a result of all the revelations? Have you stopped buying from people who were outed? Have you increased your research on cards before buying? Have you changed what you buy? Or are you still pretty much relying on the flip to tell you the card is unaltered (if you even care)?

Personally, I had high hopes this would bring about major changes to the hobby or the graded card segment anyhow. Now, I think not.

As you were.

[Johnny630]

Well stated.

Sadly it is my opinion that this has passed over, nobody will be held accountable, many are still setting up at the major shows or walking the floor. Every Major Auction Realizes Higher and Higher Sales, it’s an Investors Market Now, all that matters is the grade. Many could care less, they just want the number on the slab.

[parkplace33]

Nothing has changed… scratch that, investors got wealthier.

And those subpoenas from the National? Forget about it.

[parkplace33]

The whole thing saddens me sometimes. But most collectors could care less.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Nothing has changed… scratch that, investors got wealthier.

And those subpoenas from the National? Forget about it.

+1 agreed.
Their should have been accountability but not surprised there was not

[aconte]

Before that there was the t206’s with bad autographs. Right? How did that one get resolved?


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[vintagetoppsguy]

Like it or not, Jake was 100% right and most here were wrong.

[Natedog]

I'm sure a lot of those "outed" PSA cards have been bought and sold many times over since, and as long as money is being made, nobody seems to care.

[Keith H. Thompson]

I wish calvindog was on my side. Keith H Thompson

[robw1959]

Although nothing has changed in the hobby with regard to buying and selling, I think many buyers may still be looking more closely at graded cards, especially PSA cards. I know I do. I do think PSA has adopted a more rigorous grading process to earn that public trust back again, but that's about it.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Although nothing has changed in the hobby with regard to buying and selling, I think many buyers may still be looking more closely at graded cards, especially PSA cards. I know I do. I do think PSA has adopted a more rigorous grading process to earn that public trust back again, but that's about it.

I saw a great deal of high priced SGC cards listed as being altered on the Blowout threads so the issue seems to be far from isolated to PSA. I am a nothing in the hobby but to those I spoke with about a year ago many of the guys mentioned on Blowout are still submitting to PSA so dunno that PSA has earned the trust back as much as their graded material sells for strong prices...still.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I saw a great deal of high priced SGC cards listed as being altered on the Blowout threads so the issue seems to be far from isolated to PSA. I am a nothing in the hobby but to those I spoke with about a year ago many of the guys mentioned on Blowout are still submitting to PSA so dunno that PSA has earned the trust back as much as their graded material sells for strong prices...still.

Possibly the change in ownership?

[Johnny630]

The New AI Grading Machine I think is going to be the game changer. I’m glad they’re using it.

[Rich Klein]

Ryan between his book and his videos on you tube is doing great work on helping us find fakes

https://www.amazon.com/Spotting-Fake.../dp/B09MYST97Q

and his you tube chanel

https://www.youtube.com/c/BreakoutSportsCards



Rich

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Ryan between his book and his videos on you tube is doing great work on helping us find fakes

https://www.amazon.com/Spotting-Fake.../dp/B09MYST97Q

and his you tube chanel

https://www.youtube.com/c/BreakoutSportsCards



Rich

Maybe because I do vintage I am less worried about fakes than I am altered. The bulk of bad cards are altered than fake, no?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Maybe because I do vintage I am less worried about fakes than I am altered. The bulk of bad cards are altered than fake, no?

I think there are many cards that are altered and are difficult to discern as altered. I think there are basically no outright fakes that are difficult to discern as outright fakes. There's a ton of fakes, but I've yet to find any that are very difficult to tell are not original cards. I would say altered cards are the problem right now, but fakes may well be the bigger problem long term. It seems almost inevitable that there eventually will be fakes we basically can't tell apart. There's simply too much profit for the first person to manufacture a convincing T206 fake for it not to happen eventually. Someone who can figure out how to use c. 1910 equipment with the right ink and the right stock can create instant retirement money off printing a handful of cards. Considering PSA can't even separate Dover reprints from originals, it seems likely something like this will eventually happen, be authenticated, and be a serious problem for the high rollers.

[egri]

Originally Posted by aconte

Before that there was the t206’s with bad autographs. Right? How did that one get resolved?


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I remember that as well, but I haven't heard anything about it in years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think there are many cards that are altered and are difficult to discern as altered. I think there are basically no outright fakes that are difficult to discern as outright fakes. There's a ton of fakes, but I've yet to find any that are very difficult to tell are not original cards. I would say altered cards are the problem right now, but fakes may well be the bigger problem long term. It seems almost inevitable that there eventually will be fakes we basically can't tell apart. There's simply too much profit for the first person to manufacture a convincing T206 fake for it not to happen eventually. Someone who can figure out how to use c. 1910 equipment with the right ink and the right stock can create instant retirement money off printing a handful of cards. Considering PSA can't even separate Dover reprints from originals, it seems likely something like this will eventually happen, be authenticated, and be a serious problem for the high rollers.

And when fakes become a major issue, people will probably bury their head in the flip then too.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by aconte

Before that there was the t206’s with bad autographs. Right? How did that one get resolved?


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Originally Posted by egri

I remember that as well, but I haven't heard anything about it in years.

That one was getting hushed up very quickly. I was amazed at how many people wanted that to go away and not be talked about. It worked to because it was like "poof" and it was swept under the rug.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by G1911

I think there are many cards that are altered and are difficult to discern as altered. I think there are basically no outright fakes that are difficult to discern as outright fakes. There's a ton of fakes, but I've yet to find any that are very difficult to tell are not original cards. I would say altered cards are the problem right now, but fakes may well be the bigger problem long term. It seems almost inevitable that there eventually will be fakes we basically can't tell apart. There's simply too much profit for the first person to manufacture a convincing T206 fake for it not to happen eventually. Someone who can figure out how to use c. 1910 equipment with the right ink and the right stock can create instant retirement money off printing a handful of cards. Considering PSA can't even separate Dover reprints from originals, it seems likely something like this will eventually happen, be authenticated, and be a serious problem for the high rollers.

Agreed which is why I was wondering why a reference was being made to a guy who identifies fakes is on a thread having to do with a massive issue of altered graded cards that seems far from resolved.

[JLange]

I’ve decided that if I’m going to keep collecting cards, that one of the risks is that they might be altered. I won’t knowingly buy a graded card that is trimmed but it just goes with the territory now. I recently purchased a graded card where I had a raw example. The raw card was bigger all around than the graded version. I’m at a point where my expectations are much lower now for TPGs. I only trust that I’m getting an authentic card and not much else.

J@son L@nge

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And when fakes become a major issue, people will probably bury their head in the flip then too.

100% guaranteed. Reality only matters if people decide reality is what matters and not the narrative. If PSA says it's a 10, it's a 10 no matter if it's trimmed, creased, or was an 8 last week.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

100% guaranteed. Reality only matters if people decide reality is what matters and not the narrative. If PSA says it's a 10, it's a 10 no matter if it's trimmed, creased, or was an 8 last week.

There's a great line by Wallace Stevens I'm fond of quoting: And what we said of it became a part of what it is.

[chriskim]

I honestly forgot what this is all about and googled it and found the scandal

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1298306

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by chriskim

I honestly forgot what this is all about and googled it and found the scandal

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1290614

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1298306

Those are just two threads. There are more than a dozen I believe, with each one featuring a high profile dealer who is slicing and dicing cards. There might even be a thread that serves as a table of contents and lists all the applicable threads.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by egri

I remember that as well, but I haven't heard anything about it in years.

One thing which came out of that event was SGC Closed down their autograph authentication service. That was a significant reaction in my opinion.

Rich

[ALBB]

Not much has changed..and those doctored cards are still out there..in somebody's collection...and they know it....and someday will try to pass them on to another collector

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

One thing which came out of that event was SGC Closed down their autograph authentication service. That was a significant reaction in my opinion.

Rich

Yes.... and far fewer (meaning hardly any) signed T206 have hit the market since then. I'd say it was a positive outcome.

Perhaps not so much for the altered card scandal (which is waaaaay larger in scope). Perhaps the FBI is still on it, but it's looking like the only real casualty is PWCC, who was booted from ebay.

If nothing else, the sleuths at Blowout helped us to steer clear of a whole bunch of dishonest sellers. That's some consolation, anyway.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I will be beyond disappointed if there are no consequences for the card doctors who have polluted this hobby. But even if that’s the case, it’s certainly been interesting and an education.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I will be beyond disappointed if there are no consequences for the card doctors who have polluted this hobby. But even if that’s the case, it’s certainly been interesting and an education.

+1. Hopefully those who committed so much fraud will get their just dues. And that means some type of punishment other than only giving refunds of cards they altered and sold to deceive.
.

[Flintboy]

Originally Posted by robw1959

Although nothing has changed in the hobby with regard to buying and selling, I think many buyers may still be looking more closely at graded cards, especially PSA cards. I know I do. I do think PSA has adopted a more rigorous grading process to earn that public trust back again, but that's about it.

You’re kidding right?

[ullmandds]

I admit I was wrong...I thought for sure somebody would pay a big price/do some jail time.

If that didn't derail the hobby I'm not sure anything can?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I admit I was wrong...I thought for sure somebody would pay a big price/do some jail time.

If that didn't derail the hobby I'm not sure anything can?

And little Sir John and the nut-brown bowl
Proved the strongest man at last

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

More importantly, though, how many have changed their behavior as a result of all the revelations?

As a result of all of this, I have started buying more modern cards. With vintage cards, you can soak them, remove stains, whiten the paper stock, press out light creases, press down corners, recolor them, etc. Now, try doing all of this on modern card stock - you can't!

The only thing that I have to look out for when I buy modern is a) trimming and b) to make sure the jersey patch wasn't switched. However, most of the modern cards that I buy don't have patches, and so this isn't much of an issue.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And little Sir John and the nut-brown bowl
Proved the strongest man at last

yes...john barleycorn MUST DIE!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

yes...john barleycorn MUST DIE!!!

The "three men" are the BODA guys, I think.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The "three men" are the BODA guys, I think.

haha...good one!

[Stampsfan]

The scandal may not even be known to folks who were not in the hobby three years ago, of which I think there are many.

[edhans]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And little Sir John and the nut-brown bowl
Proved the strongest man at last

Love it! My favorite Traffic tune.

[Snowman]

Ironically, the 52 Mantle that started it all wasn't even altered. It was just soaked in water.

I've been saying since the beginning that nobody is going to be prosecuted for any of this. Not even the most egregious of trimmers. I can just imagine a criminal trial where some guy is accused of trimming cards, sending them off to a 3rd party to have them graded, having those grades come back as 10s, and reselling them for a profit. I think people in this hobby seem to have a difficult time wrapping their heads around the fact that to the rest of the world, this is an absolute nothing burger.

I wouldn't even care if a card in my collection was trimmed unless it presents as clearly having been. I have a centered 54 Topps set. There's a ton of variance in size with these. Are some of them trimmed? Maybe. Perhaps even probably. But I couldn't tell you which ones if so, and neither could anyone else. As long as they look right and measure to within the tolerance of specs, then I'm happy.

Someone from the Blowhard forums contacted me outside the forum after reading some of my comments on the topic a couple years back. He claimed to have sent hundreds of trimmed cards to both PSA and BGS and said he has never had a single card get rejected for it. I don't know how true that is, maybe the guy was just trolling me or trying to get a rise out of me? I don't know. Although, I have pack-pulled cards falsely get rejected as "trimmed" probably at least 1% of the time), But I wouldn't be surprised if what he claimed was mostly true. I just don't see how it's possible to detect that 1/128th of an inch has been trimmed off of a modern card that already has super sharp edges to begin with.

I highly doubt the investigation is still ongoing. I think the FBI probably saw this as a bunch of collectors mad at other collectors for doing things to their cards that they don't approve of. Basically, I think they view it as a small group of bitter septuagenarians and a handful of millenial cancel culture heroes with nothing better to do than to try to cancel people for not following the unwritten "rules" of the hobby. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those FBI agents are now trimming cards for a little extra cash lol.

As far as my buying behavior goes, it hasn't changed much for me. I'm more aware of how widespread it is now, so I keep an eye out for cards that look obviously trimmed, but other than that, it has no effect on my collecting habits. If anything, I think it has pushed some of the Blowhard junkies away from perfectly good cards. All those conspiracy theory enthusiasts at Blowhard now think every edge of every card that gets posted has been trimmed. It's absolutely hilarious reading some of those threads. And despite the fact that it gets pointed out multiple times in every thread that card sizes vary significantly direct from the manufacturer, somehow all of these clowns still think that all you need is a ruler to catch a trimmed card.

This will not bring about any changes to the hobby. Nobody cares. Or rather, not enough people care.

[Johnny630]

I've been saying since the beginning that nobody is going to be prosecuted for any of this. Not even the most egregious of trimmers. I can just imagine a criminal trial where some guy is accused of trimming cards, sending them off to a 3rd party to have them graded, having those grades come back as 10s, and reselling them for a profit. I think people in this hobby seem to have a difficult time wrapping their heads around the fact that to the rest of the world, this is an absolute nothing burger.

Snowman agree it’s rich people who have been getting conned who really cares….it’s obviously the government doesn’t. Trimmers alterers will never be prosecuted, never, won’t happen, to hard to prove. It’s the wild Wild Wild West in this hobby always has been and always will be…you have to be informed if you aren’t Shame on you. All the info is out there. Mastro didn’t go to jail for trimming it was shilling. Card doctors will continue to thrive they still set up at shows, buy from most major actions auction houses, (who cares if they pay, AH doesn’t, they take their business I would to if they pay, they haven’t been convicted of anything, just shady allegations which is large percentage of this hobby anyway)consign, and walk the floor of all major shows.

Now I hear about from a collector the he has an account with PWCC..he stated he is getting 1% monthly interest on a capital loan against portfolio w free vault storage. What the hell is this ?

The rich get richer the poor get poor and middle pay more and spend less. The FOMO is over....

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I've been saying since the beginning that nobody is going to be prosecuted for any of this. Not even the most egregious of trimmers. I can just imagine a criminal trial where some guy is accused of trimming cards, sending them off to a 3rd party to have them graded, having those grades come back as 10s, and reselling them for a profit. I think people in this hobby seem to have a difficult time wrapping their heads around the fact that to the rest of the world, this is an absolute nothing burger.

Snowman agree it’s rich people who have been getting conned who really cares….it’s obviously the government doesn’t. Trimmers alterers will never be prosecuted, never, won’t happen, to hard to prove. It’s the wild Wild Wild West in this hobby always has been and always will be…you have to be informed if you aren’t Shame on you. All the info is out there. Mastro didn’t go to jail for trimming it was shilling. Card doctors will continue to thrive they still set up at shows, buy from most major actions auction houses, (who cares if they pay, AH doesn’t, they take their business I would to if they pay, they haven’t been convicted of anything, just shady allegations which is large percentage of this hobby anyway)consign, and walk the floor of all major shows.

Now I hear about from a collector the he has an account with PWCC..he stated he is getting 1% monthly interest on a capital loan against portfolio w free vault storage. What the hell is this ?

The rich get richer the poor get poor and middle pay more or spend less. The FOMO is over....

Great points!

Doctoring or altering a card you own is in no way, shape, or form a crime in and of itself. And neither is submitting such an altered card to a TPG for grading. And the TPGs only give their "opinions" on graded cards, and among all of them have no consistent, standardized, and agreed upon grading standards. And supposedly they don't disclose exact reasons for given grades to submitters, nor keep grader's notes and records. If ever hauled into court, there is no detail to point to, and given the volume of cards they grade, they can honestly say they most likely can't remember any one specific card.

A card doctor submitting altered cards to TPGs and getting them passed and into numerically graded slabs is akin to a form of legalized money laundering. It's almost a perfect, what should be illegal, business. Kind of reminds me of an old saying by an anonymous hooker, "You got it, you sell it, you still got it. What a business!!!"

[japhi]

Late to the party here, but I have changed the way I collect since learning how many altered cards are in slabs. Always new that trimmed cards were getting by, but the sheer number of cards beating the TPG's was pretty surprising.

My response has been to focus on my raw sets, and to buy mid grade / under-graded vintage that is victim of the new and mostly inconsistent grading standards. While there has always been discrepancy between grades, it is out of control now which creates a lot of opportunity for those of us that only care about having nice looking cards, raw, grades, multiple TPG, whatever.

TBH enjoying the hobby more then ever, will let others battle over high grade altered cards.

[japhi]

Originally Posted by samosa4u

As a result of all of this, I have started buying more modern cards. With vintage cards, you can soak them, remove stains, whiten the paper stock, press out light creases, press down corners, recolor them, etc. Now, try doing all of this on modern card stock - you can't!

The only thing that I have to look out for when I buy modern is a) trimming and b) to make sure the jersey patch wasn't switched. However, most of the modern cards that I buy don't have patches, and so this isn't much of an issue.

Good luck with that. I remember reading a post on BO where they outed something like 50 McDavid FWA's as being trimmed. Apparently they come big from the factory and guys were trimming these into 10s in bulk. Not exactly a cheap card either.

Suspect it would be incredibly easy to do the same with most young guns. In fact, you could probably invest in a modern cutter and trim your way to glory with modern hockey, the TPG's have not demonstrated any ability to spot micro trimming on modern cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Keep in mind that with strict rules of evidence and a very high burden of proof, not all crimes can be successfully prosecuted in court. At one point Brent Huigens was a cooperating witness and his rumored decision not to cooperate may have changed the prosecutor's calculus. If indeed this is all over from the criminal justice angle, and we don't know that, I think evidentiary considerations likely were more the reason than either the FBI or the prosecutor considering this unimportant. Prosecutors only like to pursue cases they feel they have a strong chance of winning. The evidence in the court of public opinion is quite different from what is admissible in court. They couldn't just put up screenshots of Blowout threads.

All speculation of course.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BobC

Great points!

Doctoring or altering a card you own is in no way, shape, or form a crime in and of itself. And neither is submitting such an altered card to a TPG for grading. And the TPGs only give their "opinions" on graded cards, and among all of them have no consistent, standardized, and agreed upon grading standards. And supposedly they don't disclose exact reasons for given grades to submitters, nor keep grader's notes and records. If ever hauled into court, there is no detail to point to, and given the volume of cards they grade, they can honestly say they most likely can't remember any one specific card.

A card doctor submitting altered cards to TPGs and getting them passed and into numerically graded slabs is akin to a form of legalized money laundering. It's almost a perfect, what should illegal, business. Kind of reminds me of an old saying by an anonymous hooker, "You got it, you sell it, you still got it. What a business!!!"

I would take it even one step further though. I think someone could openly admit to each step you mention in a court of law and they still wouldn't be prosecuted for any crimes. It's not just that it's difficult to prove. It's also that it's simply not a crime regardless of how much some would like it to be.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by japhi

Good luck with that. I remember reading a post on BO where they outed something like 50 McDavid FWA's as being trimmed. Apparently they come big from the factory and guys were trimming these into 10s in bulk. Not exactly a cheap card either.

Suspect it would be incredibly easy to do the same with most young guns. In fact, you could probably invest in a modern cutter and trim your way to glory with modern hockey, the TPG's have not demonstrated any ability to spot micro trimming on modern cards.

It's actually not that difficult to tell, well, for me anyways. All I do is lay the modern card down on a flat surface and then I place a small flashlight next to it at a certain angle. In the next step, I use a loupe and study the edges and corners. Believe it or not, but I have BGS 9.5 cards with bits of corner wear and bits of chipping on the edges. In other words, they are not supposed to look flawless. And it's even easier to tell when you study the backs. The backs usually have a different design compared to the fronts, such as colored borders, colored corners, etc. Again, even pack pulled examples should have a bit of "whiteness" showing on the corners there. I stay the hell away from modern cards that look perfect because I don't believe they came out of packs looking perfect.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Posted in the related thread as well:

dumb question. How long (without the additional delaying effects of a pandemic) did the investigation of Mastro take? Doug Allen? Operation Bullpen? Was there a point in those investigations where people were like "see they didn't do anything because they haven't been charged and it's been 'X' amount of time"???

[Peter_Spaeth]

OOf.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=149

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

OOf.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=149

Where there is a Will there is a Way.