SGC kept my Vic Willis T206 gray back variation

[Mark17]

For the past few years I'd been looking for a Vic Willis T206 portrait with the gray back variation. This September I found and bought one on ebay from battersbox.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/194250670218

I wanted to send it to SGC to get it authenticated and in a slab, certain it would not get a numeric grade due to condition issues, but confident it would get an Authentic designation due to the reputation of the seller.

SGC, through my online order status and email, notified me they couldn't grade it, and refunded me the $30 for it. On the invoice I received with the rest of the order, next to the Vic Willis entry, it simply says "Cannot Grade".

Okay, if they don't want to grade it and they refunded the money, that's fine, but here's the problem:
THEY KEPT THE CARD!!

I just sent them a message that says:
"I just received my order, invoice #208604. You graded and returned 8 of my nine cards, and did not return the best one - the Vic Willis T206 gray back variation. The invoice says "Cannot Grade" due, I suppose, to the printing error that caused the gray background color. But you kept it instead of sending it back. This printing error is somewhat scarce and if you don't want to grade it, fine, but at least return it to me ungraded."

Is this a common thing??? I thought these guys were ethical.

[ullmandds]

i'd be on the phone with SGC?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i'd be on the phone with SGC?

Tried that and got a recording saying that in order for them to process orders in these difficult times, they weren't answering their phone. I have to submit my complaint online which I did.

[bobbyw8469]

They are not supposed to keep cards they don't grade.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

They are not supposed to keep cards they don't grade.

Well, it's good to know they are not supposed to be thieves.

We'll see how this plays out. I was surprised they wouldn't grade it A in the first place. Maybe some inexperienced grader had no idea there was such a thing as a known printing variation with this card, where the maroon background color isn't there, producing the gray background.

And...... this card was the only reason I sent them the order in the first place. The other cards were mostly low grade T202 that I sent along just to get them in protective slabs as they are somewhat fragile.

[Mark17]

Well, I got a quick reply, but not a truthful one:

Hi Mark,

I checked with my team to see if anyone kept your card. We did send it back with the rest of the order. We have no reason to keep it.

Please let me know if I can be of any assistance.

Brent Martin
Collector Support

[upstateNYmilb]

Contact Peter Steinberg, I believe his email is

peter@gosgc.com

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by upstateNYmilb

Contact Peter Steinberg, I believe his email is

peter@gosgc.com

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk

Thanks, I just sent him an email.

[Pat R]

Mark that stinks that they kept your card but your Willis is definitely not a print variation it's the result of a chemical reaction.

[icurnmedic]

Never heard of this , and Ive graded thousands of cards.

Now it is a "he said she said" thing.

Good luck with your situation.

As far as communication goes, they really need to do better. Very poor in my opine.


Thomas Church

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Mark that stinks that the kept your card but your Willis is definitely not a print variation it's the result of a chemical reaction.

Is that true of all the Willis T206 cards that have the gray, or violet, backgrounds? Because I've seen several Willis cards that look this way.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Is that true of all the Willis T206 cards that have the gray, or violet, backgrounds? Because I've seen several Willis cards that look this way.

No there are some color variations in the Willis portraits but yours was caused by a chemical reaction probably it was glued in a scrapbook and exposed to sun or dampness that caused a reaction with the glue.

You can see that there is a discoloration on the back and there's a spot where it was protected by something that matches on the front and back.
The area that was protected has an almost normal background color for a Willis portrait.
Willis Chemical.jpg
Willis Chemical.jpg Back.jpg

Hopefully everything works out and you get your card back. SGC was right in not grading it and I think the email you got was truthful they would have no reason to keep the card it's maybe a $50-$75 card in that condition.

[Webster]

Carefully check the packaging to be sure it wasn’t between pieces of cardboard that were discarded. This type of thing has happened to me before.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Pat R

SGC was right in not grading it and I think the email you got was truthful they would have no reason to keep the card it's maybe a $50-$75 card in that condition.

Pat, thanks for the info. If your chemical reaction explanation is correct I would think it would also be applicable to the other Willis cards with discolored (gray, violet) backgrounds. In other words, if the patches of red on my card, which you think were covered up, had not been, then there would be no red in the background of my card at all, and it would look quite similar to the other gray background examples.

As far as SGC not having a reason to keep the card.... yes, obviously it isn't real valuable I only paid $100 for it. But I assure you they did keep it (or disposed of it, or misplaced it, or sent it to the wrong submitter, or something.) It was not in the package, and I wouldn't be dishonest about something as relatively trivial as this.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Pat, thanks for the info. If your chemical reaction explanation is correct I would think it would also be applicable to the other Willis cards with discolored (gray, violet) backgrounds. In other words, if the patches of red on my card, which you think were covered up, had not been, then there would be no red in the background of my card at all, and it would look quite similar to the other gray background examples.

As far as SGC not having a reason to keep the card.... yes, obviously it isn't real valuable I only paid $100 for it. But I assure you they did keep it (or disposed of it, or misplaced it, or sent it to the wrong submitter, or something.) It was not in the package, and I wouldn't be dishonest about something as relatively trivial as this.

I believe you mark I wasn't implying that you were being dishonest I just meant that it must be some kind of mistake somewhere and I believe the person at SGC that said they have no reason to keep the card.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I believe you mark I wasn't implying that you were being dishonest I just meant that it must be some kind of mistake somewhere and I believe the person at SGC that said they have no reason to keep the card.

Totally agree. SGC did get back to me again and said they would look into it. I mentioned that what I think might've happened is that the initial grader found my other 8 cards straightforward, looked at the Willis and wasn't quite sure what was going on with it, had a grader more familiar with T206 nuances look at it, and somehow it got separated from my order. In other words, totally honest and easily understandable mistake.

So far I have learned:

1. SGC has been very responsive
2. Your explanation of the background color of the card makes sense, and...
3. Would explain why it wasn't graded
4. The card I thought was a neat print variation likely isn't (good to know)
5. The rest of my order from SGC was perfect, grades about a half point higher than expected, generally
6. When something like this happens to me, I need to take a breath of air and calm down.

So, to my previous question. Do you think my card, with the gray background except along the top in a straight line, is the missing link between regular Willis portraits with burgundy backgrounds, and the completely gray background cards I've seen? In other words, is it solid evidence the gray background cards are caused by chemicals or sun fade, rather than lack of red in the printing process?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Mark17

So, to my previous question. Do you think my card, with the gray background except along the top in a straight line, is the missing link between regular Willis portraits with burgundy backgrounds, and the completely gray background cards I've seen? In other words, is it solid evidence the gray background cards are caused by chemicals or sun fade, rather than lack of red in the printing process?

This one is definitely not a 'natural' grey. I tend to think the vast majority of these "misprints" did not leave the factory that way. Note how many of them there are in T206 and compare with how few there are in nearly worthless T59, the other ATC T card set of the period with probably the highest non-T206 print run. I have several T cards like this where the original background color is partially there, in a spot that was clearly covered by something and didn't take sun/chemical/other damage to lose a color(s). They aren't missing links or variations, they are just damaged. A small number are probably mistakes missing a color pass, but they are few and far between. I'd wager that about 0 of the cards with a spot properly done on and edge or corner and then the color missing elsewhere are real. I still like cards like this simply because they look different, but most are unlikely to be any kind of 'genuine'.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Totally agree. SGC did get back to me again and said they would look into it. I mentioned that what I think might've happened is that the initial grader found my other 8 cards straightforward, looked at the Willis and wasn't quite sure what was going on with it, had a grader more familiar with T206 nuances look at it, and somehow it got separated from my order. In other words, totally honest and easily understandable mistake.

So far I have learned:

1. SGC has been very responsive
2. Your explanation of the background color of the card makes sense, and...
3. Would explain why it wasn't graded
4. The card I thought was a neat print variation likely isn't (good to know)
5. The rest of my order from SGC was perfect, grades about a half point higher than expected, generally
6. When something like this happens to me, I need to take a breath of air and calm down.

So, to my previous question. Do you think my card, with the gray background except along the top in a straight line, is the missing link between regular Willis portraits with burgundy backgrounds, and the completely gray background cards I've seen? In other words, is it solid evidence the gray background cards are caused by chemicals or sun fade, rather than lack of red in the printing process?

Personally I wouldn't guarantee any of them to be factory produced.

I was looking for a "grey" example but haven't found any yet but here's a good example of a post factory discoloration on a Willis.

It has an angled change in color in the background that matches the angled stain on the back. The stain on the back is a little harder to see in the scans on here but it's there.
Willis Chemical line.jpg
Willis line.jpg

Here's a more pronounced example of a card where the front chemical reaction matches the back.
Donovan.jpg

This is similar to what Greg posted and I agree with what he said.

[Exhibitman]

What little can be told from a scan, the Willis looks like something I had years ago. I bought a collection of T cards that included a T202 w/Cobb end panel that was 'wet' with some sort of browned oil. Looked like motor oil. I did some research and one conservator said that in cases like that they use progressive soaks in Bestine, a non-staining solvent, to remove as much of the crud as possible. The card did get clean but the white stock grayed as a result and the red changed some. That is how your card looks to me.

[Mark17]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your contributions! So now I'm not so bothered by the card going missing, since it is apparently just a very damaged card and not a fairly uncommon print variation. That makes the whole issue more of a curiosity than a real problem.

I think your explanation of chemicals/fade is logical with my example, as there are parts that have the correct burgundy color indicating that ink was present during the printing process. I have seen other Willis portraits with completely gray backgrounds. One was on ebay last year. And I've seen what I thought were "violet" variations.

Is your opinion these things are all due to chemical reactions or fade, as opposed to missing colors in the print process? Here is an example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144161666607

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate your contributions! So now I'm not so bothered by the card going missing, since it is apparently just a very damaged card and not a fairly uncommon print variation. That makes the whole issue more of a curiosity than a real problem.

I think your explanation of chemicals/fade is logical with my example, as there are parts that have the correct burgundy color indicating that ink was present during the printing process. I have seen other Willis portraits with completely gray backgrounds. One was on ebay last year. And I've seen what I thought were "violet" variations.

Is your opinion these things are all due to chemical reactions or fade, as opposed to missing colors in the print process? Here is an example:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/144161666607

I think that example is a legitimate color variation but I couldn't say 100% without having it in hand.

This Willis you posted relates to the different stages within the same series that I posted about.

If they were printed in stages it would explain the different shades found on the Willis portraits and some of the other cards, we see this a lot with the Hindu's.

Here's one of my Willis cards that's quite a bit different from the one you posted and if they were printed in different stages the difference in them would come from having different color mixtures used in each stage.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Stampsfan]

Maybe they put in into a PWCC auction and it didn't receive the minimum $10 bid.

[Republicaninmass]

Hi Mark, I guess this is always everyone's biggest fear, aside from losing the package. Let me ask; do you still have ALL the packaging? Was the card listed on your form? Did you check and see if it might have been stuck to tur back of one of the slabbed cards? I went through the same ordeal. After panicking, I ended up finding the card in the package.

[Ronnie73]

There is a good chance that it was packed in a separate section of the box and possibly overlooked. Did you notice it missing right away and scramble through the packaging? Or did you open the box, remove the cards, and toss out the box and packaging before examining each of the cards?

I also agree with Pat about the color loss/change. I've been dealing with T206's in an extreme way and nearly all color variations are due to sun fading or chemical interactions, especially cards that were in a scrap book and soaked out. Many of the glues used back then, bleached out certain colors. Even the missing red ink cards that have been graded and authenticated, I stay away from. Especially if there's the slightest sign of back damage or back staining like water spots. Some of them are cool looking and neat to have, if your building a card player run, but I never pay more than 10 percent over a normal printed card. I make slight exceptions for certain cards that I enjoy the major contrast of the difference. Such as the Red Kleinow Batting with a bright yellow hat (that should be red). Another favorite of mine is a deep purple background on a Dougherty Portrait that is normally found closer to a grey color. But as favorite as it is of mine, I still don't own one, because it's difficult to prove rarity and authenticity on color differences. If you requested that SGC make a note of the color variation on the label, that's probably why they refused to grade it. Cards that are Scrap, that have color differences or missing colors, are usually the only one's I trust.

Anyways, I hope your missing card turns up. There's nothing that fixes the internal pain when a card becomes missing. I'm still grieving over a missing card from April 9th, 2019. A Jimmy Sheckard No Glove Sovereign 350 PSA 3. I still haven't replaced it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I think that example is a legitimate color variation but I couldn't say 100% without having it in hand.

This Willis you posted relates to the different stages within the same series that I posted about.

If they were printed in stages it would explain the different shades found on the Willis portraits and some of the other cards, we see this a lot with the Hindu's.

Here's one of my Willis cards that's quite a bit different from the one you posted and if they were printed in different stages the difference in them would come from having different color mixtures used in each stage.

[IMG][/IMG]

If you compare the one with the more purple background to the on Patrick posted, you will also see that the uniform is a darker bluish gray. That bluish gray extends under the red background as well, you can see it at the right of the copy from the Burdick collection at the Met.
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/413558

The red is slightly translucent, so the darker color under the red makes it appear more purplish.

[obcmac]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

There is a good chance that it was packed in a separate section of the box and possibly overlooked. Did you notice it missing right away and scramble through the packaging? Or did you open the box, remove the cards, and toss out the box and packaging before examining each of the cards?

I also agree with Pat about the color loss/change. I've been dealing with T206's in an extreme way and nearly all color variations are due to sun fading or chemical interactions, especially cards that were in a scrap book and soaked out. Many of the glues used back then, bleached out certain colors. Even the missing red ink cards that have been graded and authenticated, I stay away from. Especially if there's the slightest sign of back damage or back staining like water spots. Some of them are cool looking and neat to have, if your building a card player run, but I never pay more than 10 percent over a normal printed card. I make slight exceptions for certain cards that I enjoy the major contrast of the difference. Such as the Red Kleinow Batting with a bright yellow hat (that should be red). Another favorite of mine is a deep purple background on a Dougherty Portrait that is normally found closer to a grey color. But as favorite as it is of mine, I still don't own one, because it's difficult to prove rarity and authenticity on color differences. If you requested that SGC make a note of the color variation on the label, that's probably why they refused to grade it. Cards that are Scrap, that have color differences or missing colors, are usually the only one's I trust.

Anyways, I hope your missing card turns up. There's nothing that fixes the internal pain when a card becomes missing. I'm still grieving over a missing card from April 9th, 2019. A Jimmy Sheckard No Glove Sovereign 350 PSA 3. I still haven't replaced it.

Agreeing on the amazing difference in picture quality on the purple dougherty. Love the way it looks compared to a duller version. (sorry for the mini-hijack...hope the card turns up)