"Grading Scandal" in a nutshell, please

[Phil68]

Hey guys! I am enjoying this forum so much looking at the cards and reading insights, etc. I have been collecting but really not immersed in the "2019 Grading Scandal" as I have heard and read it referred to.

What I think I know is, Brent sold some cards that were doctored and a forum called Blowout Cards brought attention to it. PSA was the TPG in offense. I read where Evan Mathis has allegedly trimmed up some rather expensive cards and has sold them? Is this all tied in together?

Is that it? Is there more? I see guys post back and forth and feel like the kid in the cafeteria without a place to sit, Lol. I'm reading about it but can't really grasp the issue beyond what I stated above.

I'm discussing with a good friend tonight that is interested in learning about it (he casually collects today's cards) and I found myself saying "Yeah, it sounds terrible. Scary stuff"...that seemed a little short and I heard myself sounding like an impeachment witness--not good.

How about a cliffs notes version--in a nutshell--what happened, what is continuing to happen and who has stepped up to be accountable and who is being a weasel. It would help a brother out AND others that troll around here could gather some information without having to bounce around thread to thread.

Facts only, if you can & Thank You!

[swarmee]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297767

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1304959

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...-bidding-scam/

Warning: the more you read, the less you'll want to purchase graded vintage cards for investment purposes. So read up!

But basically: PSA, Beckett, and SGC are all incompetent at some parts of their core job of authenticating and grading cards and autographs. A bunch of auctionhouses and trimmers either A) took advantage of that or B) conspired with the grading companies to pump up the value of their cards through fraud. SGC used to have a Grade Guarantee where they confirmed they stood behind the grades they handed out; that went missing from their website quietly a few months ago. PSA still has one, but has told their largest submitters that they have to take back the cards so there's not a run on the PSA bank/grade guarantee and so they can lie about how prevalent fraud is to their shareholders.

[bnorth]

Fake Beckett and PSA slabs with altered and counterfeit cards

Altered cards in slabs from all the companies.

Most high grade cards ARE altered, even Mastro admitted that when he was busted.

Most of the people sticking up for the grading companies are really in on it, have mental issues, or are trying to protect the value of their collection.

Been this way for a long long time.

[Eric72]

Quick version:

Some people learned that they could get doctored cards into graded holders and sell them for massive profits. We’re probably only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Phil68

Hey guys! I am enjoying this forum so much looking at the cards and reading insights, etc. I have been collecting but really not immersed in the "2019 Grading Scandal" as I have heard and read it referred to.

What I think I know is, Brent sold THOUSANDS of cards that were PURCHASED FROM HIM BY KNOWN CARD DOCTORS AND THEN doctored AND THEN RESOLD FOR THE DOCTORS BY HIM and a forum called Blowout Cards brought attention to it. PSA was the TPG in offense. I read where Evan Mathis has allegedly trimmed up some rather expensive cards and has sold them? Is this all tied in together?

Is that it? Is there more? I see guys post back and forth and feel like the kid in the cafeteria without a place to sit, Lol. I'm reading about it but can't really grasp the issue beyond what I stated above.

I'm discussing with a good friend tonight that is interested in learning about it (he casually collects today's cards) and I found myself saying "Yeah, it sounds terrible. Scary stuff"...that seemed a little short and I heard myself sounding like an impeachment witness--not good.

How about a cliffs notes version--in a nutshell--what happened, what is continuing to happen and who has stepped up to be accountable and who is being a weasel. It would help a brother out AND others that troll around here could gather some information without having to bounce around thread to thread.

Facts only, if you can & Thank You!

That should help

[Johnny630]

Remember this PSA is Teflon. Accept no accountability they just offer an opinion. How can they be held responsible they can’t. Pop Report and Registry Have People Brainwashed. They Will Stay Number 1.....this will pass but collateral damage will happens for a period of time for most graded cards.

My big Key Point that interests me the most is

PSA Invitationals held twice or quarterly a year, One On One meetings with graders of your cards to “discuss”????

Vault and Major Market Manipulation Starting late 2013

My Key Bullet Points to Research

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by swarmee

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297767

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1304959

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1289859

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...-bidding-scam/

Warning: the more you read, the less you'll want to purchase graded vintage cards for investment purposes. So read up!

But basically: PSA, Beckett, and SGC are all incompetent at some parts of their core job of authenticating and grading cards and autographs. A bunch of auctionhouses and trimmers either A) took advantage of that or B) conspired with the grading companies to pump up the value of their cards through fraud. SGC used to have a Grade Guarantee where they confirmed they stood behind the grades they handed out; that went missing from their website quietly a few months ago. PSA still has one, but has told their largest submitters that they have to take back the cards so there's not a run on the PSA bank/grade guarantee and so they can lie about how prevalent fraud is to their shareholders.

I just read a bunch. This is actually REALLY serious. I have always known that PSA was in WAY over their head in terms of applying a consistent grading standard. I also figured, with the turnover and inexperience of graders, doctored cards would, doubtless, be making their way into holders...
It never occurred to me that it would be an actual scam and they would fail to be accountable in such an obvious way.

I met Joe Orlando about 20 years ago. He was a plastic fellow with limited basic intelligence but tried hard to be "one of the guys". He would "ok" bulk submissions I would do with other set-builders and we would talk sports, cards and collecting. It was a fairly transient relationship but he would actually answer my direct calls. I appreciated him.

I have watched him and his company become one of the most arrogant and unlikable group of folks in the world. I really mean that. I have a fair amount of money invested in cards that PSA has encapsulated but, I can honestly say, not once have a bought ANY card BECAUSE it was in a PSA holder. I think the fact that he has sold off a significant amount of his stock may be quite telling.

[swarmee]

The stock piece is really a red herring, IMO. The majority of those stock sales were likely to cover taxes on his other stocks and income. It may look bad, but really isn't.
The declaration during a stockholder's teleconference that the grading scandals is immaterial to their business/shareholders is ridiculous. PSA is getting the biggest brunt of it because their slabs sell for the most, and their numbering scheme is easy to determine which order the cards were graded in, for the most part.
Beckett is getting blamed for favoritism by rewarding a single submitter with like 25% of all BGS 10 Pristines and 10 Black Labels given out in the last couple of years. But since they don't have a "grade guarantee", the buyers who got hosed with trimmed cards in Beckett slabs don't really have anywhere to get a refund.

[egbeachley]

Here is the best summary I have heard.

You are more likely to receive an altered card if purchased in a PSA slab than if you purchased it raw.

[Tyruscobb]

Besides the card doctoring, 2019 also revealed the artificial pumping that occurs. A certain company or companies was/were allegedly reporting sales for market appearances.

It/they would report that card X sold for Y price. However, the “winning” bidder would not actually pay. Thus, the final sale price was not legit and actually realized.

This makes the market/demand appear stronger than reality and creates artificial prices. Possibly also related to shill bidding.

We are seeing just the iceberg’s tip. I hope the FBI is building it’s cases.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I just read a bunch. This is actually REALLY serious. I have always known that PSA was in WAY over their head in terms of applying a consistent grading standard. I also figured, with the turnover and inexperience of graders, doctored cards would, doubtless, be making their way into holders...
It never occurred to me that it would be an actual scam and they would fail to be accountable in such an obvious way.

I met Joe Orlando about 20 years ago. He was a plastic fellow with limited basic intelligence but tried hard to be "one of the guys". He would "ok" bulk submissions I would do with other set-builders and we would talk sports, cards and collecting. It was a fairly transient relationship but he would actually answer my direct calls. I appreciated him.

I have watched him and his company become one of the most arrogant and unlikable group of folks in the world. I really mean that. I have a fair amount of money invested in cards that PSA has encapsulated but, I can honestly say, not once have a bought ANY card BECAUSE it was in a PSA holder. I think the fact that he has sold off a significant amount of his stock may be quite telling.

The biggest question (to many of us) is whether PSA is complicit in the grading of altered cards, or simply too incompetent to detect them. The number of altered/numerically slabbed cards is now well into the thousands, with values totaling tens of millions of dollars. And only a tiny percentage of the tainted card pool has been revealed to date. It is quite difficult and time consuming to fully research and reveal these alterations. So it's still the tip of the iceberg, as many have stated.

Hopefully the FBI (who's been investigating this for months) will clear up the incompetence/complicity question, and will issue arrests commensurate with the level of fraud committed.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The biggest question (to many of us) is whether PSA is complicit in the grading of altered cards, or simply too incompetent to detect them...

IMO You've hit the nail on the head. No matter which one this is, it's disgusting that they are either:
a. Horrible at their job
b. Outright thieves

Not sure which one I am actually hoping for...

[seff]

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by dseff

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

I have never once heard that before. I do know many examples of the exact opposite. I even had a guy 2 days ago when discussing altered vs 1 grades say his Old Judge card was graded Authentic by SGC but after cracking it out sent it to PSA and got a 1 grade.

I do agree that all companies slabs have altered cards in them.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have never once heard that before. I do know many examples of the exact opposite. I even had a guy 2 days ago when discussing altered vs 1 grades say his Old Judge card was graded Authentic by SGC but after cracking it out sent it to PSA and got a 1 grade.

I do agree that all companies slabs have altered cards in them.

Agreed Ben...not sure who "they" is who supposedly says "this?"

From my personal experience...on 2 occasions SGC rejected twice as A...PSA gave numbers.

[seff]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Agreed Ben...not sure who "they" is who supposedly says "this?"

From my personal experience...on 2 occasions SGC rejected twice as A...PSA gave numbers.

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

[irv]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

There are 3 possibilities here?

Either someone is feeding you a pile of B.S., you have PSA cards that you are trying to protect the value of or your a PSA troll?

Not a chance PSA grades harsher than SGC. That one is easily debunked just by checking out graded cards on ebay, here, or Blowout.

[swarmee]

Depends on the set, or the type of alteration. PSA is well known for rejecting cards for minsiz or sheet cut (when they detect it) or stored for years in a screwdown holder (shows signs of pressing at the corners which can also hide spooned out creases). Those same cards will regularly get number grades from Beckett and SGC.

The Buster guy has regularly complained about crossing SGC 88 (NM-MT 8) cards to PSA and how few actually cross.

But then there are thousands of trimmed cards that have cleared PSA and they regularly miss writing, added coloring, or erasures on cards which should be seen and given either MK or Altered designations instead of straight/unqualified numbers. Look at the most recent PSA 9 1969 Roberto Clemente's right edge:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=835 How did that card get into a PSA 9 holder honestly?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

You’re Clueless with a capital C!

A lemming with a capital L!

A sheeple with a capital S!

Baaaaaaaaaaah!

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

Hello Dave. I don't know you but cannot say with more certainty that you are incorrect. Dreadfully and alarmingly so. I could soften it by saying the good 'ol, "everyone's experiences may differ, and may even be relative to what they collect?" Big picture, however, your assertion is pure folly.

I could elaborate but it would sound harsh in written form. If we were in person, I would be speaking in an apologetic tone--not attacking.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Phil68

Hello Dave. I don't know you but cannot say with more certainty that you are incorrect. Dreadfully and alarmingly so. I could soften it by saying the good 'ol, "everyone's experiences may differ, and may even be relative to what they collect?" Big picture, however, your assertion is pure folly.

I could elaborate but it would sound harsh in written form. If we were in person, I would be speaking in an apologetic tone--not attacking.

+1 I didn’t wanna say it in a way the sounded rude.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

Originally Posted by swarmee

Depends on the set, or the type of alteration. PSA is well known for rejecting cards for minsiz or sheet cut (when they detect it) or stored for years in a screwdown holder (shows signs of pressing at the corners which can also hide spooned out creases). Those same cards will regularly get number grades from Beckett and SGC.

But then there are thousands of trimmed cards that have cleared PSA and they regularly miss writing, added coloring, or erasures on cards which should be seen and given either MK or Altered designations instead of straight/unqualified numbers. Look at the most recent PSA 9 1969 Roberto Clemente's right edge:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=835 How did that card get into a PSA 9 holder honestly?

Wow. That's really bad. Hard to make a viable excuse for that.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Phil68

Hello Dave. I don't know you but cannot say with more certainty that you are incorrect. Dreadfully and alarmingly so. I could soften it by saying the good 'ol, "everyone's experiences may differ, and may even be relative to what they collect?" Big picture, however, your assertion is pure folly.

I could elaborate but it would sound harsh in written form. If we were in person, I would be speaking in an apologetic tone--not attacking.

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.

Me3!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by dseff

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

If PSA rejects it then you can be sure it's altered....

I would think the TPG names could be interchangeable in what is written above.

No one is perfect? Yeah, but you'd hope that when you start a business of being a TPG service, that you'd at least get the first card right (or at least the first few).

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.

For what it's worth, you seem just fine to me! Maybe someone will come up with a tone acronym. For now, I'll just write my intentions. I've been grossly misunderstood before--years ago--while writing. My inner circle knew exactly how to interpret me...my new "friends" on a discussion board did not. Once people think you're a tool--they don't give you the benefit of the doubt. A good hatred is much more fun and they pile on, Lol.

[Bigdaddy]

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

Beautiful Synopsis Nail Hit Directly on the Head.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Beautiful Synopsis Nail Hit Directly on the Head.

Agreed... Nice objective recap.

But Bigdaddy did miss one thing. The alterations are quite often amateurish, and very poorly executed. Trimming and re-coloring that would immediately be identified by any credible grader with minimal experience, or very minimal elementary-level training.

It is beyond fishy that they continue to "miss" these obvious alterations, as they slap their 9s and 10s on the same preferred submitters' cards over and over again.

Case in point...

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agreed... Nice objective recap.

But Bigdaddy did miss one thing. The alterations are quite often amateurish, and very poorly executed. Trimming and re-coloring that would immediately be identified by any credible grader with minimal experience, or very minimal elementary-level training.

It is beyond fishy that they continue to "miss" these obvious alterations, as they slap their 9s and 10s on the same preferred submitters' cards over and over again.

Case in point...

Would love to know who submitted this Miscut Card? How do you grade this card anything other then MC

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I am told that is one of my biggest problems on here. I come off as a A-Hole when calling out the shady stuff in the hobby. When in reality I am a very nice generous person.

I have the opposite problem (Shhhhhh!!!)

[1952boyntoncollector]

Also zero lawsuits thus far even though hundreds of thousands of dollars of altered cards have been uncovered and going on a year.....correct me if i am wrong

thus, people must still be satisfied on whatever recourse they are getting without a lawsuit thus far..

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Would love to know who submitted this Miscut Card? How do you grade this card anything other then MC

By grading it as altered, which it is.

An 8th grader with a pocketknife could do just as well. (I have the Hostess cards from a scout campout to prove it too Can't complain too much, I was the 8th grader with a pocketknife)

[Leon]

The grading scandal has shown all collectors/hobbyists that TPGs only give their opinions and they are not facts. A lot of us could do a way better job. It has brought about the need for even better understanding of the sets, and their characteristics, than before. And it has made a lot of collectors wary of high grade cards that are short with pointy corners. There are 10s of thousands of altered cards in numerical slabs. The higher the grade the more likely there is fraud but even lower grade cards are not exempt.

[drcy]

Some collectors care about truth and some care about perception. When their money is involved it's usually about perception.

[topcat61]

There's another part of this which came out in November 2018 and that is the forged autographed T206 and 1933 Goudey's which are tied into the grading companies, J. Spence and the auction houses. I filed a few FOIA requests to the FBI recently because this particular case hasn't been resolved.

I went back as far as 2010 (though I think you can go back as far as 1991) but while the FBI and the Justice Department were going after Bill Mastro, they and members of Congress threatened the "Hobby" that if they didn't clean up its act, they would. Most people were at the time saying "I'll see it when I believe it" and to a degree, it's been a correct statement.

We can blame the grading companies and auction houses all we want to, but some of the blame has to go to the collectors as well. There are a lot of great dealers, auctions and collectors, but too many turn a blind eye because of the amount of money that's invested -and then there are people who dont know what's going on either who also continue to do business as usual.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by dseff

No grading company is perfect. PSA rejected 2 of my cards twice for Altered Stock.

Sent to SGC. Both graded no problem. SGC holders contain many altered stock cards.

As they say: If PSA rejects it SGC and Beckett will grade it.

No one is perfect.

Who says that?

[Frank A]

Originally Posted by dseff

I hear this from all over the place. SGC/Beckett also gives higher grades than PSA. I've cracked slabs and crossed over raw. PSA always grades harsher. Hence, higher value.

Where did you come up with that fantasy?

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Also zero lawsuits thus far even though hundreds of thousands of dollars of altered cards have been uncovered and going on a year.....correct me if i am wrong

thus, people must still be satisfied on whatever recourse they are getting without a lawsuit thus far..

Sorry, but one does not beget the other. You cannot assume that because a client does not sue means they are happy with the experience.

I am absolutely pi$$ed with an auction house at the moment on a consignment issue. Been fighting with them for almost three years. The amount (approx. $1000) is not worth suing over. However, I will be formally documenting the issue in an upcoming post, and on a new website I am building.

My $1000 item is now essentially worthless because of their neglect and incompetence, but I am not getting a lawyer and suing them. You cannot equate one with the other.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Sorry, but one does not beget the other. You cannot assume that because a client does not sue means they are happy with the experience.

+1

This whole, "no lawsuits so everyone is satisfied" line of BS is getting old. The only people who are satisfied are the ones that don't know about this scandal to begin with. They are satisfied with their altered cards because they don't know about them.

[Touch'EmAll]

In a nutshell ? Sucks, be super cautious here on out.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Also zero lawsuits thus far even though hundreds of thousands of dollars of altered cards have been uncovered and going on a year.....correct me if i am wrong

thus, people must still be satisfied on whatever recourse they are getting without a lawsuit thus far..

Arguably as stupid/naive a comment as has ever been posted on this Board.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Arguably as stupid/naive a comment as has ever been posted on this Board.

You have to login more!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Sorry, but one does not beget the other. You cannot assume that because a client does not sue means they are happy with the experience.



I am absolutely pi$$ed with an auction house at the moment on a consignment issue. Been fighting with them for almost three years. The amount (approx. $1000) is not worth suing over. However, I will be formally documenting the issue in an upcoming post, and on a new website I am building.

My $1000 item is now essentially worthless because of their neglect and incompetence, but I am not getting a lawyer and suing them. You cannot equate one with the other.

It appears the point of your post is 'why bother, since its only $1000 given all the costs and time involve to try to recover damages.


what about the 50k and 100k issues we have seen on other cards.

You said $1000 is not worth fighting for, what about 100k? If answer is no, why bring up the $1000 item. My point is there are a lot more issues than low value cards, there is plenty of high dollar cards issues which makes your argument weak

I am sure nobody is 'happy' or 'satisfied' its obvoius tongue and cheek but nobody has filed a lawsuit so everyone is just eating their card issues like you , is what you would be saying even on the 50k ones...thats assuming the owner only has 1 card..he could have more than 1 as well that have issues or its being resolved to their 'satisfaction' P where lawsuit not necessary. If there have been any lawsuits, correct me.

There is not unlimited time, there are statutes of limitations as well...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Arguably as stupid/naive a comment as has ever been posted on this Board.

I nominate your post, at least for the year 2020..... nice one bizarro Peter C...

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Back to the OP's question and reaching back to the recent signed T206 fiasco. I'll use 'TPGs' in general, referring to any of the three letter companies we all know:

1. The TPGs were shown to have negligently certified many signed T206 and other pre-war cards that were proven to have existed in an unsigned condition in the recent past. I do not know of any resolution to this so far other than SGC folding their autograph authentication business.

2. Card trimmers and other card 'enhancers' were caught manipulating cards to bump their grades and therefore increasing the prices they brought on the open market, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Many of these people have been called out by name and more continue to be discovered. This has cast a shadow on many, if not all, high grade slabbed cards. Including everything from tobacco cards to the glossy inserts of today.

3. PWCC and other sellers have been accused of conspiring/enabling/turning a blind eye to these card doctors and bringing their wares to market. They typical response is denial of fore-knowledge, however I believe some refunds have been issued in response to legal pressure.

4. The TPGs have been accused of either complete incompetence in their ability to detect altered cards (at best) or of conspiring with certain known submitters to look the other way (at worst) when grading cards from certain folks. Proof of the card alterations (and the submitters) has been called out and shown by BODA (Blowout Detection Agency) too many times to count. None of the TPGs have taken any responsibility for these actions.

5. The TPGs have been accused of favorable treatment of certain high volume submitters in assigning or revisiting grades to certain cards. This is completely different than the item above which deals with altered cards. PSA even advertises that they offer opportunities for certain folks to 'discuss' the grading of cards that they have submitted. No response from the TPGs on this favoritism charge.

6. And of course the on-going charges of shill bidding and phantom sales continue to manipulate market prices, propping up card prices and leading us closer to a market collapse.

Other than that, nothing to see here. Move along.

Did I miss anything?

Yeah, In a nutshell it's a Billion Dollar Fraud. Enjoy getting your balls kicked in. I've been beat like a red headed step child with all my fakes and everyone here is a victim.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Yeah, In a nutshell it's a Billion Dollar Fraud. Enjoy getting your balls kicked in. I've been beat like a red headed step child with all my fakes and everyone here is a victim.

a billion dollar fraud but for whatever reason no lawsuits....any other billion dollar frauds with no lawsuits?

[swarmee]

There is a lawsuit between Leaf and Upper Deck which brought in BGS grading improprieties into the discussion. Joe Clemons was called to testify about whether or not he was receiving improper grades from BGS for Leaf, I believe.

[bmcnutt]

This research & work should be "published". This is a phenomenal piece. I can't believe the FBI/Federal Investigators continue to standby & let these turd cutters get away with this. I've always felt that card grading has ruin the hobby. Back in the day, if you had a NR/MT 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle that booked for $600.00, you paid no more than $600.00. I wish there were only reputable entities that did card authentication.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bmcnutt

This research & work should be "published". This is a phenomenal piece. I can't believe the FBI/Federal Investigators continue to standby & let these turd cutters get away with this. I've always felt that card grading has ruin the hobby. Back in the day, if you had a NR/MT 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle that booked for $600.00, you paid no more than $600.00. I wish there were only reputable entities that did card authentication.

Nothing personal but this is sort of an ignorant statement. Haven't you read the many, many threads, which have stated unequivocally, there is a formal investigation going on by the FBI?