Possible solution!

[leaflover]

In the near future, all cards submitted to TPGs if found altered or restored in any way will have an "A" stamped on the back of the card. Code letters or numbers could also be added noting the alteration. The card would then be holdered with a cert.#.

Submitters would not have the option of having "bad" cards simply returned so they could be resubmitted until they passed. Now altered cards are going from one HA to another until sold. With the "stamp" buyers at least would know what they are getting and adjust bids according.

I believe something of this sort would help in eliminating fraud that exists in the hobby.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by leaflover

In the near future, all cards submitted to TPGs if found altered or restored in any way will have an "A" stamped on the back of the card. Code letters or numbers could also be added noting the alteration. The card would then be holdered with a cert.#.

Submitters would not have the option of having "bad" cards simply returned so they could be resubmitted until they passed. Now altered cards are going from one HA to another until sold. With the "stamp" buyers at least would know what they are getting and adjust bids according.

I believe something of this sort would help in eliminating fraud that exists in the hobby.

unless of course...the stamp could be removed?

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

unless of course...the stamp could be removed?

if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

haha...obamacare for cards.

[steve B]

Stamps have been marked on the back by experts for a very long time. It's more of a thing in Europe than the US, where we've had certificates for nearly as long.

German and Spanish expertisers will mark forgeries - usually with the word "false" in whatever language they use.

But most of Europe is moving away from marking the stamps on the back, and towards certificates. Modern ones have a photo of the item on the certificate, which isn't perfect.

The question that arises is what to do with an item that is determined to be fake or altered, but later can be proven to be good? It's a tricky thing no matter how you look at it.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

haha...obamacare for cards.

Maybe even institute one of those death panels, where altered cards are put out of their misery.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by steve B

German and Spanish expertisers will mark forgeries - usually with the word "false" in whatever language they use.

Great idea. Now I can tell everyone that I have a faux Wagner.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by leaflover

In the near future, all cards submitted to TPGs if found altered or restored in any way will have an "A" stamped on the back of the card. Code letters or numbers could also be added noting the alteration. The card would then be holdered with a cert.#.

Submitters would not have the option of having "bad" cards simply returned so they could be resubmitted until they passed. Now altered cards are going from one HA to another until sold. With the "stamp" buyers at least would know what they are getting and adjust bids according.

I believe something of this sort would help in eliminating fraud that exists in the hobby.

I don't like this idea. Here's why. I've heard of people pulling cards directly from packs, sending them in to be graded and coming back as EOT. Cards that couldn't have possibly been trimmed are labeled as such. So, what's to keep PSA from stamping a card with an A when indeed it was not altered? Heck, they can't even identify altered cards now.

[brianp-beme]

Of course this stamped letter should be scarlet in color to indicate 'Adulterated'

Brian

[cardsnstuff]

I like the idea, but I agree, maybe on short/EOT, (unless clear proof of trimming} they simply mark short or Not size (N9) or whatever they call it and for all practical purposes it would remove those cards from circulation.

[drcy]

The solution is to make the penalty for deceptively altering a card so hideous and gruesome that the potential perpetrator gets PTSD just thinking about it.

Other potentially useful techniques were used Clockwork Orange

[icollectDCsports]

A card found to be altered should be further altered with an inked-on handlebar mustache. And aviator shades.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The answer is simple -- punish fraudsters. Severely. People commit fraud because they can get away with it, and there are no consequences except getting rich and in many cases adored. We now have a great and perhaps unprecedented opportunity for law enforcement to make a difference. Hopefully they will pursue this aggressively and not let people off the hook with a slap on the wrist.

[Steve D]

That will never work, as doing so could open the TPG to legal action.

One of the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels (there are only five of them), was originally deemed to be a fake; it was later proven to be real. If the TPG who deemed it fake, had marked it as a fake, it would have ruined the coin's value, and the company could have been subjected to serious legal action.

I also seem to remember hearing within the last year or so, about an Old Master painting, that was said by several "experts" to be a fake. It was later proven to be authentic. Again, if someone had indelibly marked it as a forgery, its value would have been ruined, and the person who erroneously marked it as fake, could have been sued for millions of dollars.

Steve

[packs]

If someone defaced my card you can bet that I would be pretty annoyed. An altered card is always accepted by the hobby when graded authentic. There is no reason to guess a person's motivation and deface their card.

[darwinbulldog]

But wait. Then they wouldn't get resubmitted. [Uproarious laughter from fat cats at the PSA boardroom table]

[drcy]

Originally Posted by packs

If someone defaced my card you can bet that I would be pretty annoyed. An altered card is always accepted by the hobby when graded authentic. There is no reason to guess a person's motivation and deface their card.

Talking with someone about that Sotheby's restorer woman, I offered the opinion that all restored/conserved items should be permanently marked, but that she would likely (and perhaps rightly) say she wouldn't have the right to mark someone else's item,

[honus94566]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The answer is simple -- punish fraudsters. Severely. People commit fraud because they can get away with it, and there are no consequences except getting rich and in many cases adored. We now have a great and perhaps unprecedented opportunity for law enforcement to make a difference. Hopefully they will pursue this aggressively and not let people off the hook with a slap on the wrist.

Except this is not a solution. Cuz fraudsters aren't going to get punished. They haven't in the past, and won't be in the future. Law enforcement has far bigger fish to fry with their limited resources. It's wishful thinking.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by honus94566

Except this is not a solution. Cuz fraudsters aren't going to get punished. They haven't in the past, and won't be in the future. Law enforcement has far bigger fish to fry with their limited resources. It's wishful thinking.

Yes... And if you don't believe it, just ask Mastro, Allen, Marino and Rogers.

[packs]

Why doesn't the hobby collectively agree that high grade pre-war cards are most likely always altered and pay accordingly? We could collectively drive up collector grade cards without questionable alterations and make those cards more desirable.

Wouldn't this be a lot easier to instill in the hobby than some AI grading service? What really is the difference between a PSA 9 and PSA Authentic T206? One was caught as being trimmed and one wasn't seems to be the assumption. Why not make that accepted fact? If you did that you could take the registry out while you were at it. All it takes is refusing to pay more for anything 8 (or whatever grade you want to establish) and above than you would an authentic card. People will stop doctoring cards in collector grade because the collector grade will be more desirable and registries will become obsolete while nobody chases the top tier anymore.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by honus94566

Except this is not a solution. Cuz fraudsters aren't going to get punished. They haven't in the past, and won't be in the future. Law enforcement has far bigger fish to fry with their limited resources. It's wishful thinking.

I hear you.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by leaflover

In the near future, all cards submitted to TPGs if found altered or restored in any way will have an "A" stamped on the back of the card. Code letters or numbers could also be added noting the alteration. The card would then be holdered with a cert.#.

Submitters would not have the option of having "bad" cards simply returned so they could be resubmitted until they passed. Now altered cards are going from one HA to another until sold. With the "stamp" buyers at least would know what they are getting and adjust bids according.

I believe something of this sort would help in eliminating fraud that exists in the hobby.

I have news for you: good cards get rejected all the time. Remember, all graders have different opinions, but only one person is going to examine your card. If he thinks it is altered, then he'll reject it, however, that doesn't mean the grader sitting across the table from him would do the same.

Oh, and if somebody were to stamp my card, I would drop-kick him.

The End

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by packs

Why doesn't the hobby collectively agree that high grade pre-war cards are most likely always altered and pay accordingly? We could collectively drive up collector grade cards without questionable alterations and make those cards more desirable.

Wouldn't this be a lot easier to instill in the hobby than some AI grading service? What really is the difference between a PSA 9 and PSA Authentic T206? One was caught as being trimmed and one wasn't seems to be the assumption. Why not make that accepted fact? If you did that you could take the registry out while you were at it. All it takes is refusing to pay more for anything 8 (or whatever grade you want to establish) and above than you would an authentic card. People will stop doctoring cards in collector grade because the collector grade will be more desirable and registries will become obsolete while nobody chases the top tier anymore.

You can barely get a few dozen collectors on this message board to agree how do you plan to get the whole entire hobby to agree on something most aren’t even aware of? And how do you convince these collector/investor’s with deep pockets not to spend a lot of money on a card that they want??

[packs]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

You can barely get a few dozen collectors on this message board to agree how do you plan to get the whole entire hobby to agree on something most aren’t even aware of? And how do you convince these collector/investor’s with deep pockets not to spend a lot of money on a card that they want??

It doesn't seem like I have to convince them. How confident can someone be with their high grade pre-war after something like this? Do these revelations spark increased or decreased interest in throwing big money at high grade cards? If you want to continue to pay for them, that's up to you and how you feel about people being skeptical toward your cards when it comes time to sell. I don't expect anyone to have reservations about mine. They're collector grade.

[Leon]

Investors don't generally like uneasiness in what they are investing in. That goes with anything. There is no doubt some investors are not happy and will get out. The collectors will stay and we will be fine. I do think the top registry cards will take a hit on value. How could they not? I don't feel as good today, about all of the PSA 8s, 9s and 10s in our vintage space, as I did before all of the "before" photos have come out. Now when I am looking at those mysteriously high grade cards I am thinking to myself, which of the borders are missing part of them?

Originally Posted by packs

It doesn't seem like I have to convince them. How confident can someone be with their high grade pre-war after something like this? Do these revelations spark increased or decreased interest in throwing big money at high grade cards? If you want to continue to pay for them, that's up to you and how you feel about people being skeptical toward your cards when it comes time to sell. I don't expect anyone to have reservations about mine. They're collector grade.

[leaflover]

"OK" …. So stamping an "A" on the back of an altered card is not the solution. I understand the many reasons why it won't work. However, I shutter when I read of some members suggesting that the "tainted" cards be confiscated and destroyed. That would be terrible!

Pictured is my recently purchased Virgil Trucks card. This card has perfect image registration, no red eyes, no red lips and no red mustache and that's why I bought it. The card is listed on a WhitmanIII submission and is guilty by association. PWCC has offered me a refund. I refused. It would be tough enjoying the card while it sits in an evidence box.

It will be interesting to see how this mess turns out,

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by leaflover

"OK" …. So stamping an "A" on the back of an altered card is not the solution. I understand the many reasons why it won't work. However, I shutter when I read of some members suggesting that the "tainted" cards be confiscated and destroyed. That would be terrible!

Pictured is my recently purchased Virgil Trucks card. This card has perfect image registration, no red eyes, no red lips and no red mustache and that's why I bought it. The card is listed on a WhitmanIII submission and is guilty by association. PWCC has offered me a refund. I refused. It would be tough enjoying the card while it sits in an evidence box.

It will be interesting to see how this mess turns out,

It will turn out like this ....PSA stronger then ever....GM continues in full force....and PWCC profits even more