NEED HELP with this WASHINGTON SENATORS TICKET STUB 1913-1920 but what year ?

[megalimey]

NEED HELP WASHINGTON SENATORS TICKET STUB
1913-1920 but what year ?

ticket has

"AMERICAN LEAGUE BASE BALL CLUB
WASHINGTON, D.C

I know who the team president for the Washington Senator
which the signature SEEMS TO BE Benjamin Minor

1912 – 1920 Benjamin Minor


the back has a name of HOLMES BAKERY that was in business from 1800'S TO MID 1920'S SEE PICTURE
just wondering if any one can identify year of this Washington Senators ticket , it Has large # 2 so that should mean home Game 2 with hand written Boston 8 Was 2 , this it totally wrong as I looked up all the Home schedules 1912 -1920 and that game score against Boston was not the second home game

hopefully one of you guys can give some insight

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by megalimey

NEED HELP WASHINGTON SENATORS TICKET STUB
Is this from the 1900s signature of the president is not Clark C. Griffith
so this predates it before 1920
ticket has

"AMERICAN LEAGUE BASE BALL CLUB
WASHINGTON, D.C

and a team President signature I cannot quite make out ??
the back has a name of HOLMES BAKERY that was in business from 1800'S TO MID 1920'S SEE PICTURE
just wondering if any one can identify era or year of this Washington Senators ticket , it Has large # 2 so that should mean home Game 2 with hand written Boston 8 Was 2 ,
I know who the team presidents for the Washington Senators were
1901-1903 Frederick Postal
1904-1904 Thomas J. Loftus
1904-1904 Harry B. Lambert
1905-1912 Thomas C. Noyes
1920-1955 Clark C. Griffith
1956-1960 Calvin R. Griffith
the signature does not seem to be any of these ??
hopefully one of you guys can give some insight

I believe that the handwritten score may be Boston 8 - Wash 3, which was the score of the second home game of the 1913 season on April 22nd of that year.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by megalimey

NEED HELP WASHINGTON SENATORS TICKET STUB
Is this from the 1900s signature of the president is not Clark C. Griffith
so this predates it before 1920
ticket has

"AMERICAN LEAGUE BASE BALL CLUB
WASHINGTON, D.C

and a team President signature I cannot quite make out ??
the back has a name of HOLMES BAKERY that was in business from 1800'S TO MID 1920'S SEE PICTURE
just wondering if any one can identify era or year of this Washington Senators ticket , it Has large # 2 so that should mean home Game 2 with hand written Boston 8 Was 2 ,
I know who the team presidents for the Washington Senators were
1901-1903 Frederick Postal
1904-1904 Thomas J. Loftus
1904-1904 Harry B. Lambert
1905-1912 Thomas C. Noyes
1920-1955 Clark C. Griffith
1956-1960 Calvin R. Griffith
the signature does not seem to be any of these ??
hopefully one of you guys can give some insight

Hi David,
I hope you are well.
FYI, The team president is Benjamin Minor, so this ticket can be absolutely be identified as being from the years 1913-1919 and was played at National Park.
Although RUKen is certainly correct that in 1913 the Nats lost to Boston on 4/22 with a score of 8-3, there are 2 other date possibilities from the 1913-1919 era:

6/21/15 Game 1 (Babe Ruth gets a win in this game) Nats lose 8-3
6/4/19 Nats lose 8-3

The other outlying clue is the fact that you have the sponsor on the back of the ticket.
There were no sponsors on the back of all of the Nats tickets that I have from Walter Johnson wins in the 1920's.
Perhaps someone that recognizes the sponsor might be able to further narrow down the search. I cannot, unfortunately...

I hope this helps.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I believe that the handwritten score may be Boston 8 - Wash 3, which was the score of the second home game of the 1913 season on April 22nd of that year.

thats what I was thinking initially with that score however Home Game #2
was not against Boston , it was a opening day and 3 games verses the yankees
games 2 and 3 were rained out , the next three home game were against Phila
which were also rained
Home game numbers were Printed prior to season Start
thats why I think the score was maybe added to deceive
see 1913 AL schedule

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi David,
I hope you are well.
FYI, The team president is Benjamin Minor, so this ticket can be absolutely be identified as being from the years 1913-1919 and was played at National Park.
Although RUKen is certainly correct that in 1913 the Nats lost to Boston on 4/22 with a score of 8-3, there are 2 other date possibilities from the 1913-1919 era:

6/21/15 Game 1 (Babe Ruth gets a win in this game) Nats lose 8-3
6/4/19 Nats lose 8-3

The other outlying clue is the fact that you have the sponsor on the back of the ticket.
There were no sponsors on the back of all of the Nats tickets that I have from Walter Johnson wins in the 1920's.
Perhaps someone that recognizes the sponsor might be able to further narrow down the search. I cannot, unfortunately...

I hope this helps.

I am now certain the score added was added incorrectly as Home Game #2
was against the yankees which was rained out I added the 1913 Schedule
1913 was a miserable weather period in Washington with 5 out of the six first home games rained out , if you see the results there a void of games played for the first week Game 1 was on a thursday and yet their next game played
was also on a thursday which is a week between games , proof some games were rained out , Retro only show game played so counting down is a common misconception to identify game numbers

[Scott Garner]

David,
I mean no disrespect, but especially with rainouts, it's been my experience that game numbers don't actually tell the story.
Since this game 2 ticket is a rain check, it could be used for any future game in the season if it was, in fact, rained out. The day that the ticket was used, the Senators played Boston and likely lost 8-3 as noted by the patron. Nothing that I see on the ticket nails down the year as 1913 BTW. For this reason, I did not use the game number 2 as an absolute guide in my assessment and I agree in that this assumes that the game was completed as a game of record. It could be from any year between 1913-1919 according to our good friend Dan Busby's book on Washington Senators tickets.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

David,
I mean no disrespect, but especially with rainouts, it's been my experience that game numbers don't actually tell the story.
Since this game 2 ticket is a rain check, it could be used for any future game in the season if it was, in fact, rained out. The day that the ticket was used, the Senators played Boston and likely lost 8-3 as noted by the patron. Nothing that I see on the ticket nails down the year as 1913 BTW. For this reason, I did not use the game number 2 as an absolute guide in my assessment and I agree in that this assumes that the game was completed as a game of record. It could be from any year between 1913-1919 according to our good friend Dan Busby's book on Washington Senators tickets.

thats not really how Rainouts work
the ticket stub would have to be exchanged at the ticket office for any future
game , and not just presented at the turnstile , as how would the ticket collector know which game was rained also once torn you could not use that
stub to gain reentry into the park , if so it could be handed back through the fence a hundred times to all the neighborhood kids ,
I think the writing was added at later date based on looking at retro games played ,

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by megalimey

thats not really how Rainouts work
the ticket stub would have to be exchanged at the ticket office for any future
game , and not just presented at the turnstile , as how would the ticket collector know which game was rained also once torn you could not use that
stub to gain reentry into the park , if so it could be handed back through the fence a hundred times to all the neighborhood kids ,
I think the writing was added at later date based on looking at retro games played ,

Although that's the way that rainouts are dealt with today,
I would like you to consider the fact that may not have been the way that they were handled prior to WWII.
In my own personal collection I have several early vintage undated tickets that have old vintage fountain pen inscriptions that indicate that a game was played on a different date than the game number indicated on the front of the ticket.
I truly believe that some teams operated on such slim financial margins in the early part of the 20th century that a second ticket would not be issued in order to save money. I know that the Brooklyn Dodgers did this, and I suspect others did as well FWIW.

This is the challenging issue with undated vintage tickets. I really don't personally believe that there were any absolutes IMHO. Just my 2 cents.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Although that's the way that rainouts are dealt with today,
I would like you to consider the fact that may not have been the way that they were handled prior to WWII.
In my own personal collection I have several early vintage undated tickets that have old vintage fountain pen inscriptions that indicate that a game was played on a different date than the game number indicated on the front of the ticket.
I truly believe that some teams operated on such slim financial margins in the early part of the 20th century that a second ticket would not be issued in order to save money. I know that the Brooklyn Dodgers did this, and I suspect others did as well FWIW.

This is the challenging issue with undated vintage tickets. I really don't personally believe that there were any absolutes IMHO. Just my 2 cents.

unfortunately hand written dates have been fabricated for over 30-40 years
especially when people realized some of the prices they were getting
you ever noticed the games are all significant ??
I still find it hard to accept some one just went to the turnstile with a torn rain check stub , and were allowed admission , imagine the chaos in say Home game 67 where they had been over prior 12 rain-outs and hundred of people showed with all different game numbers on their torn tickets stubs , not even an IBM computer would have been able to sort out that , let alone a underpaid ticket collector how would he know , he would have to get a print out of all the games and doing this with all the people in line , just looking at the logistical nightmare that would cause , Most vintage tickets state "ticket must be exchanged for a future game subject to availability
and all AL and NL teams abide by the same rules due to the Revenue sharing back in the day , and knowing how many paid admission would determine pay out to visiting team. and total paid attendance .
I look it from the logistical aspect and not the emotional right or wrong

[Scott Garner]

Hi David,
Last reply on this & then I'm out.
The rain out scenario that I am referring to is a game that wasn't played at all.
This would create an unused ticket, not a ticket that was torn.

As far as every undated ticket with writing on it being to a historic game, I would have to say that I actually have not found that to be the case at all. Most examples that I have seen in my 45 years of collecting vintage baseball tickets have actually been to meaningless games...

[Hankphenom]

Somebody should write a ticket book, assuming there isn't one. I remember a dealer at the old Ft. Washington shows who was THE ticket guy, might even have called himself the ticket man. Can't remember his name, unfortunately he died many years ago.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Somebody should write a ticket book, assuming there isn't one. I remember a dealer at the old Ft. Washington shows who was THE ticket guy, might even have called himself the ticket man. Can't remember his name, unfortunately he died many years ago.

Hank,
Dan Busby, a good friend, who is another long-time collector of baseball tickets is actually working on an excellent reference book on Washington Senators tickets that should be getting close to completion. He sent me a draft to look over about a year ago.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hank,
Dan Busby, a good friend, who is another long-time collector of baseball tickets is actually working on an excellent reference book on Washington Senators tickets that should be getting close to completion. He sent me a draft to look over about a year ago.

I forgot about that, especially since it's a Washington ticket. He sent me a chunk of the book years ago, very interesting. I assume you picked his brain for whatever help he could offer. I haven't seen many early Nationals tickets over the years.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hank,
Dan Busby, a good friend, who is another long-time collector of baseball tickets is actually working on an excellent reference book on Washington Senators tickets that should be getting close to completion. He sent me a draft to look over about a year ago.

I remember you mentioning this some time ago. I'm soooo looking forward to this book becoming available. Please let Dan know it's eagerly anticipated.

[nolemmings]

I’m afraid you won’t get far pinning down the date using the sponsor’s name. Holmes was the largest retail baker in the area at the time, and as noted, had been there awhile. Hopefully you can discover that they only placed their ads on the backs of tickets during one season, like they did with the m101-5 cards. Their address was at one time on E Street and First; however, they had multiple expansions around 1912 and thereafter, and the F Street and 1st address is likely part of the same complex. The phone number and street address stayed the same during that time.

It seems pretty clear the ticket was from the 2nd game of the 1913 season against Boston, as observed. I agree that it may not have been necessary for a rain check to be exchanged for a new ticket. I believe this is particularly so given the time of the season. It was only the second game of the year being played. The first attempt at game 2 was not played and likely was never started. Any ticket taker could think back to 12 days prior and remember that other than the opener, no home games had been played. Even if the practice was to redeem and exchange, I could see a ticket taker recognizing the validity of any game 2, 3 or 4 rain check under those circumstances. Moreover, the game was unremarkable, which weighs against any incentive to fake the score notation. Finally, I disagree somewhat with the notion that two other games with the same outcome from the era may have produced this ticket. In both the 1916 and 1919 seasons, home game 2 was actually played as scheduled. I do not see how such a game(s) could have formed the basis of a valid rain check, even if it did not have to be exchanged for a new ticket.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I’m afraid you won’t get far pinning down the date using the sponsor’s name. Holmes was the largest retail baker in the area at the time, and as noted, had been there awhile. Hopefully you can discover that they only placed their ads on the backs of tickets during one season, like they did with the m101-5 cards. Their address was at one time on E Street and First; however, they had multiple expansions around 1912 and thereafter, and the F Street and 1st address is likely part of the same complex. The phone number and street address stayed the same during that time.

It seems pretty clear the ticket was from the 2nd game of the 1913 season against Boston, as observed. I agree that it may not have been necessary for a rain check to be exchanged for a new ticket. I believe this is particularly so given the time of the season. It was only the second game of the year being played. The first attempt at game 2 was not played and likely was never started. Any ticket taker could think back to 12 days prior and remember that other than the opener, no home games had been played. Even if the practice was to redeem and exchange, I could see a ticket taker recognizing the validity of any game 2, 3 or 4 rain check under those circumstances. Moreover, the game was unremarkable, which weighs against any incentive to fake the score notation. Finally, I disagree somewhat with the notion that two other games with the same outcome from the era may have produced this ticket. In both the 1916 and 1919 seasons, home game 2 was actually played as scheduled. I do not see how such a game(s) could have formed the basis of a valid rain check, even if it did not have to be exchanged for a new ticket.

in 1913 When the Red Sox Came to town it was the first Visit To Washington as World Champions , there would have been a great Demand for the tickets as evident on the 14,000 attendance there were only 3 games all season that got more than 10,000 one was opening day the other two were against the Red Sox

Baseball clubs were not in the business to allow any one with a raincheck for a previously rained out game to just go to the turnstiles and that would cause to much confusion , if presented they would be told to go to the Ticket office and exchange for the game being played subject to availability , to prevent over capacity , also the ticket had already been paid for and if never used it was a win win for the club so that why they made the rule . Home Games 2-3-4-5-and 6 were rained out so when the REDSOX came to town
the demand would have been great , so having 100's or possibly thousands unaccounted for patrons show up with their raincheck would have been a logistical nightmare if same ticket was allowed entry
i have seen 100's of rain checks from pre WWII that clearly state in the event of game not legally played ticket must be exchanged for any future game "SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY " AND THE MLB teams all followed the same rules , this was done to have accurate revenue gate receipts which the away team would share some of .

[nolemmings]

"i have seen 100's of rain checks from pre WWII that clearly state in the event of game not legally played ticket must be exchanged for any future game "SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY " AND THE MLB teams all followed the same rules , this was done to have accurate revenue gate receipts which the away team would share some of "

And yet this stub bears no such language. Hmm.

[Scott Garner]

Not the same year, but note the exact language that the Washington Senators use with regards to ticket use

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by megalimey

in 1913 When the Red Sox Came to town it was the first Visit To Washington as World Champions , there would have been a great Demand for the tickets as evident on the 14,000 attendance there were only 3 games all season that got more than 10,000 one was opening day the other two were against the Red Sox

Baseball clubs were not in the business to allow any one with a raincheck for a previously rained out game to just go to the turnstiles and that would cause to much confusion , if presented they would be told to go to the Ticket office and exchange for the game being played subject to availability , to prevent over capacity , also the ticket had already been paid for and if never used it was a win win for the club so that why they made the rule . Home Games 2-3-4-5-and 6 were rained out so when the REDSOX came to town
the demand would have been great , so having 100's or possibly thousands unaccounted for patrons show up with their raincheck would have been a logistical nightmare if same ticket was allowed entry
i have seen 100's of rain checks from pre WWII that clearly state in the event of game not legally played ticket must be exchanged for any future game "SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY " AND THE MLB teams all followed the same rules , this was done to have accurate revenue gate receipts which the away team would share some of .

here are some examples of what most Rain checks stated including world series during the same period
this was an accepted exchange only policy used through out the MLB and not always clearly identified on some ball clubs tickets ,
MLB was the only game in town so they made the rules to be adhered to
the "Montgomery Biscuits" may not had the same policy for their 23 patrons

[nolemmings]

"here are some examples of what most Rain checks stated including world series during the same period "

Yet none of them states "SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY", as you claim is mentioned on hundreds of prewar stubs. Hmmm. Maybe not such uniformity after all.

It seems you have established, at least in your mind, that what you have is not the ticket stub from an actual ballgame played in 1913. After all, since you maintain that a rain check can never be used for admittance but instead must be exchanged, then what you have could not have been used in 1913.
Game 2 was never played due to rain, so it is in effect a dead ticket if from that season, or it was issued in a later year. Someone must have mistakenly or nefariously wrote the score of what just happens to be the result from the second game played in Nationals Park during the 1913 season to remind everyone of that Dutch Leonard-Bob Groom iconic 8-3 game for the ages.

Good luck in your quest.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

"here are some examples of what most Rain checks stated including world series during the same period "

Yet none of them states "SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY", as you claim is mentioned on hundreds of prewar stubs. Hmmm. Maybe not such uniformity after all.

It seems you have established, at least in your mind, that what you have is not the ticket stub from an actual ballgame played in 1913. After all, since you maintain that a rain check can never be used for admittance but instead must be exchanged, then what you have could not have been used in 1913.
Game 2 was never played due to rain, so it is in effect a dead ticket if from that season, or it was issued in a later year. Someone must have mistakenly or nefariously wrote the score of what just happens to be the result from the second game played in Nationals Park during the 1913 season to remind everyone of that Dutch Leonard-Bob Groom iconic 8-3 game for the ages.

Good luck in your quest.

I would willing except the date however, but it has nothing concrete to identify the year other than notation Having Game 2 throws it off for "me", I know it could be over a hundred years old which is the only reason I wanted it , this may have passed through several different hands , I would loved to have seen it in a scrapbook with some other items that had possible related dates but that did not happen .
one thing is certain it stirred a few pots and provided some great insights
as to its age , thanks for every ones input and it did not get ugly as sometimes it can get when there is a disagreement/opinion .

[nolemmings]

By the way, I do not collect tickets, so probably should apologize for being an interloper in this thread. My points were based solely on logic--my version of it I defer to those with experience or expertise in the area.

It just seems to me that there would be no reason to write down the wrong score unless perhaps it added value or the owner's memory had failed--it is just too easy to check for accuracy. By the way, it seems home game 2 for Washington was in fact against Boston in 1914 and 1920, so who knows (Sox won each, 5-3 and 4-2). Maybe it is worth digging.

Over the years I have spent a few hours researching the Holmes & Son Bakery, investigating the origin of their advertising on the back of the m101-5 cards.
Mine is not the end all of such research by any means, but I would add that I do not recall seeing any advertising using the term "Holmes Modern Bakery" before the fall of 1915. Again, hardly conclusive as there is not a whole lot out there and it was not my focus (the slogan does not appear on the cards), but maybe something.

[Shoeless Moe]

"Enough with the bread already"