Should for sale listings be allowed in the b/s/t without prices

[pokerplyr80]

1. Yes a seller should be free to list any card with or without a price.

2. No an asking price must be stated.

3. I don't care.

[bnorth]

I voted NO.

[bobbyw8469]

"I Don't Care"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

"I Don't Care"

Me too.

[Kenny Cole]

I suppose I don't really care, but if a price isn't listed, I pay no attention to the listing and move on.

[frankbmd]

I voted Yes, not because I do it. See my post in the other thread to find out why.

[BeanTown]

I just made my confidential vote. After seeing the results, it looks exactly like the GOP!

No- Trump
Yes- Kasich
I Don't Care - Cruz

[cracker_jack]

We're all 'mostly' knowledgeable and experienced collectors here. If it's a card you want, make a realistic offer. If not, don't click on the post.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by cracker_jack

We're all 'mostly' knowledgeable and experienced collectors here. If it's a card you want, make a realistic offer. If not, don't click on the post.

That can work the other way though. An experienced and knowledgeable collector or seller should know what they need for a card and be able to list a price.

[Thecafewha]

I don't care. If it's a regular item without a price I keep moving. If it's something I think I really need and price doesn't matter I will contact the seller.


Joshua Van Pelt

[rdixon1208]

I picked I Don't Care, but my second choice would be Yes. Like most of you, I don't usually make offers on cards without a starting price. But as a general rule, I'm against excessive rules. I understand that some of you don't like posts without a price, but adding a rule that's it's not allowed because you don't like it just doesn't seem right.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

I picked I Don't Care, but my second choice would be Yes. Like most of you, I don't usually make offers on cards without a starting price. But as a general rule, I'm against excessive rules. I understand that some of you don't like posts without a price, but adding a rule that's it's not allowed because you don't like it just doesn't seem right.

This post right here!

[1952boyntoncollector]

However, if there is no price and you PM for a price which they ask you to do in the post and then refuse in response to the PM thats sort of ridiculous too

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I suppose I don't really care, but if a price isn't listed, I pay no attention to the listing and move on.

+1

I voted NO.

Steve

[pbspelly]

Whenever someone says make an offer, I always think of this scene from "Tin Men":


CAR SALESMAN
Now, how much are you willing to
pay?

BB
Four dollars... I want to pay four
dollars a month.

CAR SALESMAN
That's not an honest answer.

BB
What do ya want to hear? That I'd
love to pay three hundred and fifty
a month... is that what you want to
hear? Tell me how much you want me
to pay and I'll tell you how much
I'll pay, but don't do a hustle on
me... I don't like that. How much
do I want to pay? I'd like to pay
nothing!

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by rdixon1208

I picked I Don't Care, but my second choice would be Yes. Like most of you, I don't usually make offers on cards without a starting price. But as a general rule, I'm against excessive rules. I understand that some of you don't like posts without a price, but adding a rule that's it's not allowed because you don't like it just doesn't seem right.

This is probably the best argument against requiring a price that I could think of. In general I am against excessive rules whenever possible. I still think if something is offered for sale a starting price should be provided. I like that there aren't many rules on this site, but in my opinion this would be a good one.

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I suppose I don't really care, but if a price isn't listed, I pay no attention to the listing and move on.

Pretty much the same for me.

[T206Collector]

I am surprised by the initial votes. A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale. It will not encourage all of the listings to include a price. I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. Why discourage potential sales? I really don't get this one.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I am surprised by the initial votes. A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale. It will not encourage all of the listings to include a price. I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. Why discourage potential sales? I really don't get this one.

+1

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I am surprised by the initial votes. A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale. It will not encourage all of the listings to include a price. I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. Why discourage potential sales? I really don't get this one.

I was at really don't care, but this is a great reason

[midmo]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I suppose I don't really care, but if a price isn't listed, I pay no attention to the listing and move on.

Same here. I don't think a rule should be made, but without a price or picture I usually ignore and move on.

[T206Collector]

This attempt to equate a priceless listing with "dishonesty" or otherwise untoward behavior is really nothing more than a buyer's dream of a perfect market for collectibles, where all cards can and should be bought for a perceived "market value." I can't help but think that the buyers who want this don't pursue cards that are particularly rare or difficult to find very often.

The beautiful thing about buying things like vintage baseball cards is that each card can be unique based on rarity of card and condition. They're little works of art and most of the serious collectors on here treat them as such. Selling one of these rarities is quite often less about "market values" than a personal exploration into what a sell threshold might be for a cherished item that may be on its way out of your collection for a whole variety of reasons from need to greed.

I have sold literally hundreds of cards from 1 figure to five figures on the B/S/T. Most of the big sales started as a discussion of value based on my identifying that I was thinking of selling a big dollar card - but not listing a price. Indeed, I often did not know what figure I would be comfortable accepting until I started receiving offers. Such was the case with my sale of Lionel Carter's T206 Eddie Plank. And, as is often the case with such rarities, there is no "established market" for the card. Not all SGC 10/PSA 1 T206 Eddie Planks are equal in value to the market or to the beholder/owner.

In any event, all of the arguments against priceless listings should apply equally to "absurd price" listings. "Fishing" -- or attempts to gain sales above some perceived "market value" -- can take place with a high price or no price. In fact, one could make a pretty compelling argument that a stated high price is more likely to result in above market sales than a priceless listing.

To those who insist on a high price listing, I assume that you believe that you can next convince a seller to accept a reasonable market price. Is that the goal? I don't know about you, but I have never been able to successfully engage a seller on an absurd high price listing by showing him recent auction results at the lower price of similar cards. The result is the same - no sale.

In short, requiring prices in listings brings you no closer to acquiring a card without a price in the listing. And, again, only has the effect of discouraging collectors with truly great stuff from sticking their toe in the water on a potential sale.

[tiger8mush]

Even worse than no price is no picture

[vintagetoppsguy]

I voted no. There are 2 things that make me click the back arrow button on a B/S/T listing real quick:

1. No price
2. Email for scans

Sellers, get off your lazy butt and post prices and scans.

The only exception to this (no price) is if its something so rare that you really dont know what to ask for it.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Me too.

Ditto. If there's mutual interest, seller and buyer will work it out [or not].

Best wishes,

Larry

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This attempt to equate a priceless listing with "dishonesty" or otherwise untoward behavior is really nothing more than a buyer's dream of a perfect market for collectibles, where all cards can and should be bought for a perceived "market value." I can't help but think that the buyers who want this don't pursue cards that are particularly rare or difficult to find very often.

The beautiful thing about buying things like vintage baseball cards is that each card can be unique based on rarity of card and condition. They're little works of art and most of the serious collectors on here treat them as such. Selling one of these rarities is quite often less about "market values" than a personal exploration into what a sell threshold might be for a cherished item that may be on its way out of your collection for a whole variety of reasons from need to greed.

I have sold literally hundreds of cards from 1 figure to five figures on the B/S/T. Most of the big sales started as a discussion of value based on my identifying that I was thinking of selling a big dollar card - but not listing a price. Indeed, I often did not know what figure I would be comfortable accepting until I started receiving offers. Such was the case with my sale of Lionel Carter's T206 Eddie Plank. And, as is often the case with such rarities, there is no "established market" for the card. Not all SGC 10/PSA 1 T206 Eddie Planks are equal in value to the market or to the beholder/owner.

In any event, all of the arguments against priceless listings should apply equally to "absurd price" listings. "Fishing" -- or attempts to gain sales above some perceived "market value" -- can take place with a high price or no price. In fact, one could make a pretty compelling argument that a stated high price is more likely to result in above market sales than a priceless listing.

To those who insist on a high price listing, I assume that you believe that you can next convince a seller to accept a reasonable market price. Is that the goal? I don't know about you, but I have never been able to successfully engage a seller on an absurd high price listing by showing him recent auction results at the lower price of similar cards. The result is the same - no sale.

In short, requiring prices in listings brings you no closer to acquiring a card without a price in the listing. And, again, only has the effect of discouraging collectors with truly great stuff from sticking their toe in the water on a potential sale.

+1

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale.

This is also part of the issue at hand. "May be" or "potentially" for sale. Why is it maybe or potentially.? If it is actually for sale..then there is no middle ground. It is either for sale.......or it isn't. If its not for sale....than it has no business posted in a for sale forum in the first place. If it's for sale.....what's the price?

I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market.

There's that "potential" word again. If its being posted in a for sale forum....it is "on the market." Am I missing something there? There seems to be an ever increasing number of blowhards, that have no intention of ever selling a card, just posting pics of cards in the for sale forum without a price.....just to post them up.


I'm definitely not talking about you specifically by any means, but you have been the only one to be willing to have an intelligent conversation about said subject. And it seems as if those that are well in favor of "not posting" a price, are much less willing to verbalize their reasons as to why. Yet, when they do...it is typically filled with half truths, and/or double speak......"may be potentially, probably might be, could possibly" type statements, that are typically seen as ways of directly inadvertently yet indirectly avoiding a direct response.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Filthy

There seems to be an ever increasing number of blowhards, that have no intention of ever selling a card, just posting pics of cards in the for sale forum without a price.....just to post them up.

I say post them up. I get more information about the market and my hobby by learning of the existence of these cards. I'm for more information, not less.

How does a "list a price" rule diminish the "increasing number of blowhards, that have no intention of ever selling a card, just posting pics of cards in the for sale forum [with an unreasonable] price.....just to post them up?"

What's next? "Only prices within 5% of the most recent sale price for a card on ebay may be asked on a card in the B/S/T?"

Blowhards with no intent of selling cards are a part of our hobby lore. The best way to deal with them is to ignore them.

[frankbmd]

Hypothetical Question

Imagine that you are the supreme leader of BST and you have the authority to set it up anyway you want, so that it meets your needs and desires. In other words a perfect BST in your opinion.

Do you really think, if that were the case, that there would be any more of a consensus for your BST verses the current BST?

You are free to participate in the current format and do your thing the way you do your thing. There are very few restrictions imposed on you. The fees are reasonable and lots of deals get done. It seems to work for the vast majority of us, even though each of us would probably tweek it in some way if we were the supreme leader. I really think the bulk of this discussion is "Much Ado About Nothing", to coin a phrase.

[iwantitiwinit]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I am surprised by the initial votes. A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale. It will not encourage all of the listings to include a price. I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. Why discourage potential sales? I really don't get this one.

What he said. Actually, I look at it this way if it's listed without a price it gives me the opportunity to decide whether I want to pursue a transaction or not. If it's forbidden to list a card without a price I most likely won't have that opportunity in as many situations. I prefer to have that choice more often than not.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I voted no. There are 2 things that make me click the back arrow button on a B/S/T listing real quick:

1. No price
2. Email for scans

Sellers, get off your lazy butt and post prices and scans.

The only exception to this (no price) is if its something so rare that you really dont know what to ask for it.

Dave initially the email for scan was off-putting to me. Then I actually found a couple of the sellers who did that simply had amazing looking cards at a decent price.

[7nohitter]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I suppose I don't really care, but if a price isn't listed, I pay no attention to the listing and move on.

Me too

[ullmandds]

i said i dont care...i'd rather see more cards...period! so if someone wants to sell something or is testing the waters...i'd prefer to see it than not.

[Leon]

You had me going till this....

Originally Posted by Filthy

Yet, when they do...it is typically filled with half truths, and/or double speak......"may be potentially, probably might be, could possibly" type statements, that are typically seen as ways of directly inadvertently yet indirectly avoiding a direct response.

[bobbyw8469]

Sellers, get off your lazy butt and post prices and scans.

David...on a side note, nothing gets my goat more than to pull out a bunch of cards out of the vault to try to meet someone's "BUY" list, scan all the cards so he can see pictures, then be met with crickets. It's not an issue about price, but at the very least, give a response saying "I'm not interested". It's called consideration.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

This attempt to equate a priceless listing with "dishonesty" or otherwise untoward behavior is really nothing more than a buyer's dream of a perfect market for collectibles, where all cards can and should be bought for a perceived "market value." I can't help but think that the buyers who want this don't pursue cards that are particularly rare or difficult to find very often.

The beautiful thing about buying things like vintage baseball cards is that each card can be unique based on rarity of card and condition. They're little works of art and most of the serious collectors on here treat them as such. Selling one of these rarities is quite often less about "market values" than a personal exploration into what a sell threshold might be for a cherished item that may be on its way out of your collection for a whole variety of reasons from need to greed.

I have sold literally hundreds of cards from 1 figure to five figures on the B/S/T. Most of the big sales started as a discussion of value based on my identifying that I was thinking of selling a big dollar card - but not listing a price. Indeed, I often did not know what figure I would be comfortable accepting until I started receiving offers. Such was the case with my sale of Lionel Carter's T206 Eddie Plank. And, as is often the case with such rarities, there is no "established market" for the card. Not all SGC 10/PSA 1 T206 Eddie Planks are equal in value to the market or to the beholder/owner.

In any event, all of the arguments against priceless listings should apply equally to "absurd price" listings. "Fishing" -- or attempts to gain sales above some perceived "market value" -- can take place with a high price or no price. In fact, one could make a pretty compelling argument that a stated high price is more likely to result in above market sales than a priceless listing.

To those who insist on a high price listing, I assume that you believe that you can next convince a seller to accept a reasonable market price. Is that the goal? I don't know about you, but I have never been able to successfully engage a seller on an absurd high price listing by showing him recent auction results at the lower price of similar cards. The result is the same - no sale.

In short, requiring prices in listings brings you no closer to acquiring a card without a price in the listing. And, again, only has the effect of discouraging collectors with truly great stuff from sticking their toe in the water on a potential sale.

Perhaps a separate section for cards that might be for sale, or could be for the right price would keep everyone happy. You could also just post here asking for ideas of a cards value.

[ajquigs]

I voted yes.

With the question phrased as "be allowed" I interpret the options as: (1) allow listings with no price, (2) do not allow listings with no price (i.e. remove "no price" posts), or (3) genuine indifference to whether such listings are permitted.

Like most people, I'm not attracted to listings with no price and I think they can be frustrating. Still, all things considered I think they should be allowed for a number of reasons already stated: one less rule to enforce, some deals do get done, some items are truly difficult to value, some members are interested in what's "out there" now or perhaps sometime in the future, etc.

[basesareempty]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I voted no. There are 2 things that make me click the back arrow button on a B/S/T listing real quick:

1. No price
2. Email for scans

Sellers, get off your lazy butt and post prices and scans.

The only exception to this (no price) is if its something so rare that you really dont know what to ask for it.

+1

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I say post them up. I get more information about the market and my hobby by learning of the existence of these cards. I'm for more information, not less.

How does a "list a price" rule diminish the "increasing number of blowhards, that have no intention of ever selling a card, just posting pics of cards in the for sale forum [with an unreasonable] price.....just to post them up?"

What's next? "Only prices within 5% of the most recent sale price for a card on ebay may be asked on a card in the B/S/T?"

Blowhards with no intent of selling cards are a part of our hobby lore. The best way to deal with them is to ignore them.

I appreciate the input. However, I feel like you as well as some of the others have interpreted this entre discussion as a "there should be changes made to the B/S/T forum" and that "We don't need a bunch of rules" in the B/S/T forum. I've never recommended or suggested such, as this isn't my website and I have zero input. I wasn't asking or suggesting anything be changed...as I merely brought up the original discussion and wanted to know the philosophy of why someone would choose to post something for sale, and then deliberately not provide a price......often times, even after being asked. (As in what are their true intentions?) Moreso to share with the community that the majority believes them to be "shady", and/or dishonest, with something to hide. Nothing more...and nothing less.

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by Filthy

Yet, when they do...it is typically filled with half truths, and/or double speak......"may be potentially, probably might be, could possibly" type statements, that are typically seen as ways of directly inadvertently yet indirectly avoiding a direct response

Originally Posted by Leon

You had me going till this....

"Double speak, and half truths." You know...when you ask someone a very direct yes or no question, and they hem-haw around give you a long winded 5 minute long explanation of everything under the sun, and still never answer the question.

Sorry, maybe I'm Old School, but the way I was raised was that if you ask a grown man a very direct "Yes or No" question...and he can't look you directly in the eye and can't give you an answer...and instead exerts a large amount of effort trying to "convince" you to "see things his way," then that is a dishonest man.

[drmondobueno]

I have yet to buy a card on BST without a price, either on a card, or a group of cards, but appreciate the offer, or what appears to be an offer, on the board. Like to see activity on BST, period. Comments can be interesting and informative, too.

If it bothers you, too bad, so sad, not your card, not your board. Sure as hell ain't mine so I worry about other things. Like breathing.

Just sayin.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Hypothetical Question

Imagine that you are the supreme leader of BST and you have the authority to set it up anyway you want, so that it meets your needs and desires. In other words a perfect BST in your opinion.

Do you really think, if that were the case, that there would be any more of a consensus for your BST verses the current BST?

I know that if I set it up my way the consensus would be overwhelmingly to not use it.

I'd want first crack at stuff for maybe 10% ----cause I'm cheap.
(Ok, not actually that cheap)

Steve B

[steve B]

I voted for yes, but it's a thing that can work both ways. Another hobby group I'm in requires price and pictures for all for sale listings. The real positive there is that there's no confusion about what you're getting, and it's really easy to simply ignore listings if the price seems too high.

As far as anything that is maybe for sale.
My whole collection with maybe a handful of exceptions is "maybe" for sale. And at the same time "not for sale"

Feel free to make absurdly high offers either cash or trade for pretty much anything in my collection. The crazier you are the more likely I'll say yes!


Steve B

[Leon]

I get what you were saying and I agree. It's a pet peeve of mine when someone won't just say yes or no. I am in agreement. It was only the verbiage you used which made me more smile than anything else..
"that are typically seen as ways of directly inadvertently yet indirectly avoiding a direct response"


This all being said it's an interesting topic.

Originally Posted by Filthy

Originally Posted by Filthy

"Double speak, and half truths." You know...when you ask someone a very direct yes or no question, and they hem-haw around give you a long winded 5 minute long explanation of everything under the sun, and still never answer the question.

Sorry, maybe I'm Old School, but the way I was raised was that if you ask a grown man a very direct "Yes or No" question...and he can't look you directly in the eye and can't give you an answer...and instead exerts a large amount of effort trying to "convince" you to "see things his way," then that is a dishonest man.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Filthy

I appreciate the input. However, I feel like you as well as some of the others have interpreted this entre discussion as a "there should be changes made to the B/S/T forum" and that "We don't need a bunch of rules" in the B/S/T forum. I've never recommended or suggested such, as this isn't my website and I have zero input. I wasn't asking or suggesting anything be changed...as I merely brought up the original discussion and wanted to know the philosophy of why someone would choose to post something for sale, and then deliberately not provide a price......often times, even after being asked. (As in what are their true intentions?) Moreso to share with the community that the majority believes them to be "shady", and/or dishonest, with something to hide. Nothing more...and nothing less.

So if I post a card asking for offers, I'm shady, dishonest, and I have something to hide? With all of the troubles surrounding our great hobby these days, I think you're aiming in the wrong direction.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

So if I post a card asking for offers, I'm shady, dishonest, and I have something to hide? With all of the troubles surrounding our great hobby these days, I think you're aiming in the wrong direction.

When I post a card asking for offers, its because I don't know what the heck I got or how much someone would give me for that card.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I am surprised by the initial votes. A vote for "No" will only have the effect of limiting exposure to cards that may be potentially for sale. It will not encourage all of the listings to include a price. I'd rather know what's potentially and actually in the market. Why discourage potential sales? I really don't get this one.

My answer is I really don't care....if there isn't a price I generally just move on. The reason I voted "No" is I did not want my offer to be a Stalking Horse bid for someone else to match or beat - or to do the homework for a potential seller on what a more rare item may be worth.

No big deal either way on most items though.

Z

[Filthy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

So if I post a card asking for offers, I'm shady, dishonest, and I have something to hide? With all of the troubles surrounding our great hobby these days, I think you're aiming in the wrong direction.

I apologize, as this "poll"/thread was a spin off of a completely different thread, posted yesterday. It went 4+ pages, before we realized it should have been a "poll." The thought process behind my comment was introduced and discussed in detail in a very non confrontational way in the first thread. However, seeing my comment as a stand alone opinion in this thread, it definitely comes off quite a bit different.

And within that thread, in great detail....it was a general opinion, that there were all sorts of reasons someone might post a card as "Make an Offer." But all of those reasons, and their 15,000 scenarios could all boil down to fit into 2 categories...

1. Seller genuinely doesn't know what the card might be worth, or what the current market is.
2. Seller is being dishonest, and/or trying toppull one over on a potential buyer.

- So, by no means, am I putting any seller into any category. I'll let the buyers of this great site have their own opinion on that. However, I will say that I find it somewhat tough to believe if someone were buying and selling sports cards, in the $200+ or even $3,000+ price range that they are doing so without much knowledge of the market. (So, Ill let you categorize those folks into whichever of those 2 above categories, as you so choose.)

And, I am in no means, "aiming" at anyone, by simply discussing the issue at hand. But if you must know, in my eyes, those who post FS items, and refuse to post a price, are seen by me no differently than those "collectors" who manipulate auctions, shill bid auctions, offer fakes, and or forgeries as authentic goods. It's all the same to me. I am intelligent enough to decipher the difference in severity, but at the very root of the issue, they're all the same.....its a lack of transparency/honesty/integrity.


.

[Leon]

I have used the "make me an offer" type thread in the BST areas before. So that makes me the same as shill bidders or someone who fraudulently sells fakes and reprints? Dang....

Originally Posted by Filthy

I apologize, as this "poll"/thread was a spin off of a completely different thread, posted yesterday. It went 4+ pages, before we realized it should have been a "poll." The thought process behind my comment was introduced and discussed in detail in a very non confrontational way in the first thread. However, seeing my comment as a stand alone opinion in this thread, it definitely comes off quite a bit different.

And within that thread, in great detail....it was a general opinion, that there were all sorts of reasons someone might post a card as "Make an Offer." But all of those reasons, and their 15,000 scenarios could all boil down to fit into 2 categories...

1. Seller genuinely doesn't know what the card might be worth, or what the current market is.
2. Seller is being dishonest, and/or trying toppull one over on a potential buyer.

- So, by no means, am I putting any seller into any category. I'll let the buyers of this great site have their own opinion on that. However, I will say that I find it somewhat tough to believe if someone were buying and selling sports cards, in the $200+ or even $3,000+ price range that they are doing so without much knowledge of the market. (So, Ill let you categorize those folks into whichever of those 2 above categories, as you so choose.)

And, I am in no means, "aiming" at anyone, by simply discussing the issue at hand. But if you must know, in my eyes, those who post FS items, and refuse to post a price, are seen by me no differently than those "collectors" who manipulate auctions, shill bid auctions, offer fakes, and or forgeries as authentic goods. It's all the same to me. I am intelligent enough to decipher the difference in severity, but at the very root of the issue, they're all the same.....its a lack of transparency/honesty/integrity.


.

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have used the "make me an offer" type thread in the BST areas before. So that makes me the same as shill bidders or someone who fraudulently sells fakes and reprints? Dang....

Leon, can you please put that in your signature block so that we can at least consider it when buying cards from you

I use make an offer when I don't have a clue what the value of my cards is. Nothing wrong with people selling stuff the way they want to sell it.