Battersbox

[jrawlsian]

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[jrawlsian]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381118256242...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Again, returned UNGRADED as I received it - No PSA

[KCRfan1]

I had asked for an image of the back of a card once, and never heard from them. I didn't buy the card from them either. I wanted to know if the card was o/c on the back ( and see for myself ), or if the back had any imperfections. If they weren't going to take a moment to communicate with me in some form or another ( even " we're unable to send additional images due to time constraints, but the card looks good " would have been satisfactory for me ) I'm not buying from them. I have too many other choices in buying on ebay or on our BST. I'm sorry this has turned into a bad experience for you. Surprising they are not taking care of their better customers.

[David W]

Originally Posted by jrawlsian

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381118256242...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Again, returned UNGRADED as I received it - No PSA

Why did you return this card?

It's pretty obvious it's a beater.

[jrawlsian]

Originally Posted by David W

Why did you return this card?

It's pretty obvious it's a beater.

My reasoning was that the crease down the center was deeper down the front than appears and the separation of the paper along the edges was greater than I thought. Regardless return was within the 14-day allowable period.

[ALR-bishop]

If I sent back 4 cards to the same seller in a short time span it would not surprise me that the seller might decide my business was too high maintenance to retain.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

If I sent back 4 cards to the same seller in a short time span it would not surprise me that the seller might decide my business was too high maintenance to retain.

+1...I have blocked bidders for a lot less than 4 returns.

Jeff

[CamaroDMD]

If I was a seller and I had a buyer return 4 separate purchases in a short period of time, I'd probably block them too. Yes, they do have a return policy in place...but from what I can tell, their auctions have good photos and clear descriptions. The occasional return is one thing...but they have to run a business and that becomes really challenging if a buyer is constantly returning inventory after purchase.

At some point, the seller will have to cut ties with that buyer because doing business with them is not profitable. I'd imagine they reached that point in this case.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

+1...I have blocked bidders for a lot less than 4 returns.

Jeff

+2....I too would block a buyer who consistently has buyer's remorse and returned a significant portion of the dollar amount they had purchased. As a seller, if I miss something on a card, I own it, accept the return and appreciate any repeat business . However, if a buyer repeatedly has subjective differences about cards (buyer's remorse) and they abuse the return policy, I feel it is best to block them so that I do not further disappoint them by sending any more inferior cards and focus my attention on the 99.99% of buyers who actually keep the cards I sell.

Since I buy much more than I sell, I can understand why the few times I have been blocked by a seller subsequent to returning grossly over-graded raw product. Not likely I would ever buy from that seller again anyway...I am actually appreciative that I am blocked as I wont make a mistake again by buying from the seller in question.

My recommendation to buyers with repeated subjective differences with online purchases is to either buy the card after it is in hand (at a show), or stick to buying graded cards.

[pokerplyr80]

Not much to say that hasn't been said, but yes I would also block a buyer who returned 4 cards.

[Beatles Guy]

To echo everyone's previous comments, I'd probably block you too. I'm about as generous as you can be when it comes to returns, but four with a seller in a short period of time just because they didn't grade out like you'd hoped? I'd be aggravated.

As for the seller, I've returned one thing to them and had a pleasant experience thereafter.

[autograf]

Ditto on the blocks..........I've bought TONS from Battersbox and find them to provide great scans and great service. Were the MK's on higher grade stuff or lower grade stuff? They are a huge operation and shipping high $ cards back and forth frequently would make it somewhat difficult. Plus there's the issue of who eats the shipping each way, etc.....good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[David W]

Originally Posted by jrawlsian

My reasoning was that the crease down the center was deeper down the front than appears and the separation of the paper along the edges was greater than I thought. Regardless return was within the 14-day allowable period.

Well, I have a small business, and frankly not all customers are worth having.

In regards to your situation, I would quickly grow weary of having to refund money and re enter a card into inventory 4 times from the same buyer.

The scan is pretty clear about what you are getting.

[darkhorse9]

I do a ton of business with Battersbox and have always been satisfied. I'm hoping that they will bring plenty of inventory to the National in Chicago (last time it was there they brought nothing). If they do I'll be spending a lot of my budget at one table.

That being said, there are two things I note about them when I'm making purchases from them:

Their ebay "free shipping" isn't free. Check their catalog and compare with their ebay prices. The ebay cards are always a dollar or two more expensive. Not a problem if you're buying one or two cards as the shipping cost for catalog purchases would even out. But if you're buying a large number of cards from them you are in effect paying postage on each and every "free shipping" card.

Their grading is also a little more generous then I would prefer. Their EX is closer to most others VG.

That being said....every purchase I make from them I go in knowing these truths already and I continue to buy cards from them.

BTW....they're running an ebay sale right now so excuse me while I go do some shopping.

[jrawlsian]

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[jrawlsian]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

I had asked for an image of the back of a card once, and never heard from them. I didn't buy the card from them either. I wanted to know if the card was o/c on the back ( and see for myself ), or if the back had any imperfections. If they weren't going to take a moment to communicate with me in some form or another ( even " we're unable to send additional images due to time constraints, but the card looks good " would have been satisfactory for me ) I'm not buying from them. I have too many other choices in buying on ebay or on our BST. I'm sorry this has turned into a bad experience for you. Surprising they are not taking care of their better customers.

Yes, something similar happened to me. They sold me a Whitey Ford with no back scan that had writing on the back. I kept the card since the front presents well but it did come back a MK. Caveat emptor - No back on their postings = Probably writing on the back. They will tell you their grading system allows for writing on the back but that's a little underhanded in my opinion. Thanks for your response.

[jrawlsian]

Originally Posted by autograf

Ditto on the blocks..........I've bought TONS from Battersbox and find them to provide great scans and great service. Were the MK's on higher grade stuff or lower grade stuff? They are a huge operation and shipping high $ cards back and forth frequently would make it somewhat difficult. Plus there's the issue of who eats the shipping each way, etc.....good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Lower-grade MKs- but see my post above about the 1951 Bowman Ford they sold me with no scan of the back that had writing on it.

[jrawlsian]

Originally Posted by Beatles Guy

To echo everyone's previous comments, I'd probably block you too. I'm about as generous as you can be when it comes to returns, but four with a seller in a short period of time just because they didn't grade out like you'd hoped? I'd be aggravated.

As for the seller, I've returned one thing to them and had a pleasant experience thereafter.

Then as a seller don't peddle questionable raw cards that you know or should know are lower grades than you're selling them for. Furthermore, if you're tolerant as they come, then you're not going to block a buyer based on otherwise-cordial transactions, or are you? Finally, how much is 5 minutes of aggravation worth? If you value 5 minutes of annoyance more than $500, then go for it. My biggest criticism of the industry is rampant overselling practices both in brick-and-mortar and online but especially online.

[Beatles Guy]

Originally Posted by jrawlsian

Then as a seller don't peddle questionable raw cards that you know or should know are lower grades than you're selling them for. Furthermore, if you're tolerant as they come, then you're not going to block a buyer based on otherwise-cordial transactions, or are you? Finally, how much is 5 minutes of aggravation worth? If you value 5 minutes of annoyance more than $500, then go for it. My biggest criticism of the industry is rampant overselling practices both in brick-and-mortar and online but especially online.

If a buyer returns a card to me because I overlooked something then that is not a problem. I have offered to refund the full amount to a customer and let them keep the item on a couple of occasions. I post clear and concise scans of all my cards to try and avoid returns, but it does happen. Having a buyer repeatedly buy items and return them because they didn't grade out like they wanted is a problem. If a card gets to you in the shape you expected but doesn't grade high enough for you, do you return it?

It's not aggravation to me if someone returns a card because of my mistake, it is aggravation if I have to deal with returns on several transactions with the same buyer because a TPG graded the cards a 4 instead of a 5.

Why do you insist on buying from Battersbox if they won't provide a back scan at your request? Why do you continue to buy from them if you have been burned on more than one occasion?

[jrawlsian]

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[ALR-bishop]

It seems obvious the seller thought you were misusing the policy and had become a high maintenance customer with whom they no longer wanted to do business. That decision seems to annoy you. I get that. What more do you want here ?

[jrawlsian]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

It seems obvious the seller thought you were misusing the policy and had become a high maintenance customer with whom they no longer wanted to do business. That decision seems to annoy you. I get that. What more do you want here ?

Nothing. Just venting some frustration and a caveat emptor to the community if anyone finds it useful or is in a similar situation in the future.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jrawlsian

My reasoning was that the crease down the center was deeper down the front than appears and the separation of the paper along the edges was greater than I thought. Regardless return was within the 14-day allowable period.

I think this post is why you're taking so much heat. The card was listed as GOOD. To most of us here, we would agree that the card is accurately listed. You say that the crease down the center was 'deeper' than appears, but the seller provides a pretty clear front and back scan. You can clearly see that the crease is visible from the front AND the back. So, I'm not sure how much 'deeper' it could have been? If I had listed this card and you returned it, I would have blocked you too. Returning a card for a flaw they might have missed (pen mark on back) is one thing, but to return a card that was accurately described with detailed pictures is another thing...even if thre is a 'no questions asked' return policy.

[Econteachert205]

I had this happen to a card I listed, clear front and back scan, words "big crease" in the description, buyer gets it, says it was bigger than he thought. Card was listed in poor condition, wtf do you want, refunded and thankfully haven't sold to since.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by jrawlsian

Well I'm not calling them and raising hell so I'm actually not INSISTING per se...


If this were a car dealership or really any other consumer-facing business, putting out policies that you intend to blacklist customers for using is grounds for a slew of truth in advertising consumer claims.
.

Not to beat a dead horse on this one but again I believe the consensus, and certainly my opinion is that despite the return policy 4 returns is excessive.

I personally work in sales, and have worked in a few different car dealerships and other customer facing businesses. I have seen car deals passed on that made financial sense because the customer was a jerk or we just knew was going to create more problems down the road. Some people simply can't be pleased and a business is better off without these customers.

Now I'm not saying that you are necessarily one of these customers and I mean no offense. But since you asked the question, four returns in a relatively short period of time is enough of an indication for most sellers or business owners to decide you're not worth the trouble.

[Paul S]

I'm just a raw guy and so have no real opinion that affects me directly re graded cards (in fact when I consign to a AH I expect them to grade them for me). However, since you are a self-admitted registry guy, why are you buying raw? Aside from the Ford episode and their customer service, maybe you just don't have enough experience yet how to buy raw over the internet? You'd probably be better of going to card shows, etc. As for an established online store, I'd think they would grade the cards they think should be graded. And if you think you are going to get a "deal" from these places, those instances will be few and far between. Just my opinion.

[jrawlsian]

Originally Posted by Paul S

I'm just a raw guy and so have no real opinion that affects me directly re graded cards (in fact when I consign to a AH I expect them to grade them for me). However, since you are a self-admitted registry guy, why are you buying raw? Aside from the Ford episode and their customer service, maybe you just don't have enough experience yet how to buy raw over the internet? You'd probably be better of going to card shows, etc. As for an established online store, I'd think they would grade the cards they think should be graded. And if you think you are going to get a "deal" from these places, those instances will be few and far between. Just my opinion.

Collecting is an art and aesthetic opinions differ by collector, something that raw sellers often capitalize on by selling cards they probably know have some defect. I have found sellers (obviously not Battersbox) who consistently send out gradable product.

Here are more images of one of the cards I returned due to a MK qualifier that I'm getting pilloried for:

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/350281...Jscan30435.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/350281...Jscan30436.jpg

I cannot detect the marks but maybe one of the stone-throwers in glass houses on here can point out the obviousness of the defects.

Saving money is not a trait inherent to non-Registry collectors...

[jrawlsian]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

I had this happen to a card I listed, clear front and back scan, words "big crease" in the description, buyer gets it, says it was bigger than he thought. Card was listed in poor condition, wtf do you want, refunded and thankfully haven't sold to since.

Yeah, they didn't say "big crease." Furthermore, there is a "depth" to a card since it's a three-dimensional object that a 2D scan makes really hard to detect. Maybe you called it out in your post and people are saying this is so obvious, but the card was even less presentable than it appeared - In my opinion for that price.

[Rich Klein]

In case anyone ever wondered why I'm such a big fan of buying and selling at shows, this thread again proves there is nothing like actually seeing cards in person.

[autograf]

The other issue with Battersbox and many LARGE sellers.....on lower grade stuff they don't spend an inordinate amount of time inspecting the stuff when they're listing it. They do a cursory look. I can only see a little black mark on the back side of that card in the border that looks like it COULD be an ink mark or it could just as easily be a print mark too. Also remember the graders aren't infallible as well. I don't play the registry game but I'm assuming you're trying to buy something described as VG or VGEX and hit an EX in this case? A $30-$40 card, grading at $8-$10 and try to get it to a $60-$70 card? As for the 53 card, flatbed scanning can hide some stuff obviously. It looked like a low grade card to begin with but hard to get on you about that one.

I think you're skewering them about their return policy but it worked 100% of the time. You returned 4 cards which, in dollar terms, represented 40-50% of your $1600 gross buy. They made a business decision to block you from bidding. Maybe that's just an automatic thing after four returns from a single buyer. Have you called or emailed them to see what their excuse is?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jrawlsian

I cannot detect the marks but maybe one of the stone-throwers in glass houses on here can point out the obviousness of the defects.

If you can't detect the marks with the card in hand (and I can't detect the mark on from my computer), why does it bother you so much what PSA said? You're obviously collecting slabs and flips, not cards.

Edited to add: Furthermore, how do you know that PSA didn't get it wrong? What if there really is NO mark on the card? Why are you trusting PSA over your OWN EYES?

[jrawlsian]

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[Paul S]

Originally Posted by jrawlsian

...Here are more images of one of the cards I returned due to a MK qualifier that I'm getting pilloried for:

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/350281...Jscan30435.jpg
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/350281...Jscan30436.jpg

I cannot detect the marks but maybe one of the stone-throwers in glass houses on here can point out the obviousness of the defects....

No one is throwing stones and no one is being pilloried. You asked for feedback. There's no malice intended so please don't become defensive just because it may differ from what you expected.

[Laxcat]

Isn't a card only worth what the last person was willing to pay for it?

That Mantle is low grade. I've bought some t's from Battersbox and I get exactly what I expect to get.

Did they charge you a restock fee?

I would if you sent back half of what you purchased from me.

[jrawlsian]

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[ncinin]

Out of curiousity what were you expecting the 1958 Topps #418 to grade from PSA or SGC?

The reason I ask is you paid Battersbox $79.50 for a card they grade VG and it not centered well.

A PSA 4 recently sold for $64.99, had no bids at $79.99, sold for $97, SGC 5 sold for $83.

PSA 3's sold for or had no bids from $45 to $77.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by Paul S

No one is throwing stones and no one is being pilloried. You asked for feedback. There's no malice intended so please don't become defensive just because it may differ from what you expected.

+100...

Steve (the OP), you started this thread and people responded honestly (including myself). What more did you want?

Jeff

[jrawlsian]

Originally Posted by ncinin

Out of curiousity what were you expecting the 1958 Topps #418 to grade from PSA or SGC?

The reason I ask is you paid Battersbox $79.50 for a card they grade VG and it not centered well.

A PSA 4 recently sold for $64.99, had no bids at $79.99, sold for $97, SGC 5 sold for $83.

PSA 3's sold for or had no bids from $45 to $77.

It shows sold but there was a discount applied to the card as it was part of a larger order. It was not $79.50 though. Expected no qualifiers, not a numerical grade per se. Not to worry, yesterday I found a PSA 3 for $55 as replacement.

[jrawlsian]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

+100...

Steve (the OP), you started this thread and people responded honestly (including myself). What more did you want?

Jeff

Jeff -Not looking for anything further. Again, as I said to another member, it's just a general sharing of experience for future members with a similar problem, whether this seller or related to general raw-card buying as a whole. Before I posted I searched this problem on the forum and couldn't find a previous case of it so decided to start the thread. Currently just responding to offshoots of the post on various comments.

[nolemmings]

Message received. If someone uses a seller's open return policy four times in a rather short amount of time and has his returns honored, he might be banned from future auctions without notice by that seller. Got it.

[ALR-bishop]

No one can say that Tod is not a fast study

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by jrawlsian

It shows sold but there was a discount applied to the card as it was part of a larger order. It was not $79.50 though. Expected no qualifiers, not a numerical grade per se. Not to worry, yesterday I found a PSA 3 for $55 as replacement.

And how long will it take for you to return that one??

[jrawlsian]

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[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by jrawlsian

Go home, troll. Thanks so much for playing.

Haha!!!! You're a f***** moron. You come on here crying, "Waaa!!!! Waaa!!!! They blocked me!!! Boo hoo!!!", acting like they did something wrong, when they didn't. There isn't a card collector on the planet who wouldn't have blocked your dumb ass after your bullshit returns. You abused their return policy, you tool. And you're crying about it????? Everyone on here is trying to be polite in their responses to you, but I've had enough. You're a pathetic, entitled f****** douchebag!!!!!

Sincerely,
Mr. Troll

[jrawlsian]

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[shammus]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Haha!!!! You're a f****** moron. You come on here crying, "Waaa!!!! Waaa!!!! They blocked me!!! Boo hoo!!!", acting like they did something wrong, when they didn't. There isn't a card collector on the planet who wouldn't have blocked your dumb ass after your bullshit returns. You abused their return policy, you tool. And you're crying about it????? Everyone on here is trying to be polite in their responses to you, but I've had enough. You're a pathetic, entitled f****** douchebag!!!!!

Sincerely,
Mr. Troll

You're done. Under no circumstances is this sort of language or personal attack ever acceptable on the board. While some may not have agreed with the original poster, everything that I've read in this thread up to this point was at least clean. For everyone else, now that "JollyElm" won't be joining us for a while, please do your part to make sure the language stays clean. We don't mind a debate/argument once in a while but keep it civil. Thanks much....

[Econteachert205]

For what it's worth I think the mk on the aaron mantle is due to an ink less pen drag down hanks face.

[Zach Wheat]

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[rsdill2]

[Rich Klein]

Mr Jolly Elm is very sad right now.