Common sense on BST

[vintagecpa]

I was wondering if it wouldn't be too much to ask for one simple request?! I don't want to mention names, but it should be common sense that when you purchase a reasonably priced card on BST, it shouldn't end back on BST or the BST auction thread at a higher price within the next day or two. The original owner most likely intended to give some appreciative board member a good deal and find the card a good home. No need for any new rules or to call anyone out. It is simply a trend I would like to see stopped or slowed down. Thanks. Mike

[Leon]

My unofficial, personal thought is that anyone can do anything with whatever they purchase. If someone wants to buy something for $100 today and try to sell it for $200 in the next minute, I might be a buyer . On the other hand if someone is disingenuous in their dealings then you have to consider if you really want to deal with that person. I am not saying that it isn't annoying, as sometimes it is to me too, but oh well.....and to reiterate, it's always caveat emptor, buyer beware on the BST. You are at your own risk.

[Fred]

I gotta agree with that. If someone is being nice enough to put a good price on a card then let someone who really wants the card have a shot at it, call it good card karma.

Edited to note - I was agreeing with the first post. Leon, you're right, anybody should be able to deal on the BST. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to try and make a buck but with the way things are now why can't people just be cool and not have to make a buck on everything. Our hobby's to the point where it's hobbyist eat hobbyist. What Mike mentioned just seems like a good guy courtesy to our fellow hobbyist. You know, kumbaya and all that $hit....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbrn9...eature=related

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Fred

I gotta agree with that. If someone is being nice enough to put a good price on a card then let someone who really wants the card have a shot at it, call it good card karma.

Edited to note - I was agreeing with the first post. Leon, you're right, anybody should be able to deal on the BST. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to try and make a buck but with the way things are now why can't people just be cool and not have to make a buck on everything. Our hobby's to the point where it's hobbyist eat hobbyist. What Mike mentioned just seems like a good guy courtesy to our fellow hobbyist. You know, kumbaya and all that $hit....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbrn9...eature=related

Fred, I don't disagree and it's good to give people good deals and get good deals. I just think that after something is sold, at least to me, the buyer can do what they want with it. If someone says it's for their collection and uses the "Oh, can you give me a great deal because of that", and then the next day it's on the BST, don't deal with that person anymore or don't give them the same good deal again. It all works out in the long run. Just treat people fairly and everything else takes care of itself. Be a jerk and that too will come back to you.. (not "you", I am just using that phrase). The older I have gotten the more I have tried to live by Karma .

[freakhappy]

With all due respect Mike, I gotta believe after people buy something on the BST, they can resell them if they want to. If you start restricting what people can and cannot do (especially in a section that it's meant to be in), other "issues" could start to arise.

I respect what you are saying and it is a little bit irritating, but honestly when I sell a card(s), I don't sell them and tell the buyer what to do with them afterwards. You got what you wanted out of the deal, if they feel like they want to try and get more or just don't want it anymore, let it be. If you're a seller you should know what you can/should sell your cards at and when you list your card, you take a chance at listing it too high or too low. It's a free market, don't try and change it.

Just my opinion,
Mike

[Jacklitsch]

Post on the BST by Dad for cards for his young son and after making the gift find the card on the BST a month later.

[barrysloate]

I know it can ruffle people's feathers, but once you sell something you lose all control of it. The next guy is free to do whatever he wants. I've heard people say things like I'll only sell this to you if you promise to keep it in your collection, but that's never really enforceable. There is good will and karma involved in all of life's transactions, but there is a business side to this hobby too.

[vintagerookies51]

I agree with several others that they can do what they want with it... For some people (sometimes me) they intend to buy a card for their collection, but end up selling it because they spot another card they've been wanting for a long time.

[Runscott]

The opinions here are quite obviously along the lines of 'collector' and 'dealer'.

The disappointment arises when a collector is not looking to make money, hoping to pass along a good deal to a fellow collector....but instead gets hold of a dealer who spots the good deal first.

The only way around this is to offer items for sell, stating 'no dealers'. I have done this with pool cues and it works well.

[barrysloate]

It's fine to say "no dealers" but again, everyone's a dealer at some point so it's tough to enforce.

And Scott- do you sell Balabushkas?

[Fred]

I think the people that are voicing their opinion about a "free market" didn't really get the point that was trying to be made by the original poster. Why not just let a fellow collector that would really appreciate the card have it rather than rather than try to make a buck on it because you know you can.

Yeah, it says a lot about our society... it's like when you're driving, why be a prick and not let someone into traffic. Was a time when people actually tried to help each other out rather than have the mentality of having to be first or the "me me" thing. Our society just doesn't seem to get it these days.

This is a nice board and it would be nice to believe that there are a few good people out there that would put the hobby (and other hobbyist) first and their pocket book second.

What, did I offend someone - oh well.....

[Big Ben]

I can see both sides of this debate. While I have not sold any cards on here as of yet, I have been the beneficiary of some nice deals from this forum. Perhaps the classy thing to do is if a person decides to flip a card, they need to list that card on another site. (agreeing that a person can do anything they want with a purchased card)

[pow323]

Steve M. You must have delt with the same person that I did that was buying for his sons collection! What a lie that was!!

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by Fred

I think the people that are voicing their opinion about a "free market" didn't really get the point that was trying to be made by the original poster. Why not just let a fellow collector that would really appreciate the card have it rather than rather than try to make a buck on it because you know you can.

Yeah, it says a lot about our society... it's like when you're driving, why be a prick and not let someone into traffic. Was a time when people actually tried to help each other out rather than have the mentality of having to be first or the "me me" thing. Our society just doesn't seem to get it these days.

This is a nice board and it would be nice to believe that there are a few good people out there that would put the hobby (and other hobbyist) first and their pocket book second.

What, did I offend someone - oh well.....

In a perfect world, most everything you said makes sense

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure you can control everyone who buys your product unless you question every single buyer, which won't happen.

Funny thing is, there are people that sell items high, low and right where they should be. Why don't we just attack the people that sell items too high on here? We would save ourselves some time

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

It's fine to say "no dealers" but again, everyone's a dealer at some point so it's tough to enforce.

And Scott- do you sell Balabushkas?

I wouldn't suggest any enforcement - I understand the frustration and I'm just saying that if you're going to get offended by flipping, then state 'no dealers' . ...Or you could offer it at a 'fair' price that a dealer would avoid.

I think most of us try not to offend other board members in our dealings and those who do are probably remembered. Also, we are all aware that dealers will swoop in on things they can flip. If we're not, then we're naive.

In the pool cue world, I was thought of as a flipper, but was more of a renter - just like I once did with cards, I wanted to handle as many examples of historic items as I could - it's the only way to learn. I've never owned a Bushka, but I've sold several Rambows and never made a nickel. I currently have one and it's probably my second-favorite collectible, right behind the 1911 bat I have that probably swung at balls thrown by Walter Ball.

Scott <=== has whined plenty of times over deals

[Gradedcardman]

I agree with Barry. When you are selling you are essentially a dealer. Whether that is the intent or not. When I sell a card on BST I don't look for it in the future. It's sold and the new owner can do whatever he wants and when.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Same thing as buying stocks, why not turn around the next day and try to double your money if you can?

[Exhibitman]

A few thoughts:

1. The issue is a non-issue as far as I am concerned because I don't think there's any way to structure a 'golden rule' of BST behavior to prohibit or delay a resale of an item. I set my price and if I give away the item to someone who wants to flip it, so be it.

2. I am reluctant to cast aspersions on a buyer's decisionmaking process without having all of the facts. Circumstances and plans change. I have picked up impulse purchases many times only to quickly decide that the item doesn't fit with my collection. I've also needed to sell cards to make a quick buck to cover an unforeseen expense or take advantage of an unforeseen collecting opportunity. It happens.

3. As long as we're talking karma, there's another metaphysical concept that seems apporpos: detachment. Let it go. If you choose not to wring the top dollar out of your items, accept the possibility that your buyer may flip the item. In the end things pretty much work out as they should. Once a person is known as a notorious flipper, they aren't going to get any breaks here. FWIW, I've noticed that the really rapacious BST flippers have relatively short life-spans here. They seem to wear out their welcomes among the membership and fade back into the woodwork.

[vintagecpa]

I agree with pretty much everything that is said. Once you own a card, you can do what you want. It is a collector vs dealer issue. Me being a simple collector makes it harder to understand sometimes. I just hate to see BST moving in that direction. I appreciate the opportunity to express my opinion. I see both sides of the fence. Mike

[ruth-gehrig]

I absolutely agree on both sides. I'm all for turning for a profit but baseball memorabilia is what I collect. Now I buy and sell other antiques for a profit and put most of those profits towards my baseball collection. I can definately see both sides here and how it would be frustrating to see something relisted especially if you substantially lowered your price because the buyer really wanted it for their collection.

[glchen]

I can see both sides of it as well. I've been sold cards where the seller had enjoyed the card for a while, and wanted to see the card in a "good home." Sometimes, the seller will give a better deal or soften their negotiating position to see the card in a good home. For example, the seller of the blue background W519-1 knew that I had the maroon and red/pink background ones, and was happy to put this one in a good home with the others. Saying that, everybody's collecting interests change, so people have a right to sell whenever they want. Financial considerations also have an impact. However, it doesn't have to be a rule, but I think it's good etiquette at least, not to flip a card so quickly. Try to at least wait a month or sell it on ebay where it's not so conspicuous. As many posters have said, once the card has been sold, the new buyer can sell whenever he wants. However, the original seller can also sell his cards to whomever he wants. If you know that person is a known flipper like this, the seller doesn't have to sell the card to that person if a lot of people have sent PM's for that card. Doesn't matter if that dealer was the first person to PM/email for that card. The seller can sell to whomever he chooses. Now if the card has been sitting for days, and this dealer/buyer is the only one to want it, then I would say, the owner better just sell the card to that person, and not complain if he sees it again soon on BST.

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

FWIW, I've noticed that the really rapacious BST flippers have relatively short life-spans here. They seem to wear out their welcomes among the membership and fade back into the woodwork.

Bingo. These things always seem to just take care of themselves. Simply move on!

[calvindog]

People can do what they want with what they buy obviously. My problem is when someone begs you for a low price on a card because of his great love for the card -- and then days later has it up on BST at a much higher price. That has happened on here to me. Second, the guys that buy stuff from a known auction house and then days later have it up on BST for double the price -- it's just unethical to some degree. We try to watch out for one another on here -- or at least I hope that we would. Don't be so quick to try to rip off someone here. Memories are long and if you try to screw someone once you may find the next time he has a card to sell you you're going to get scalped.

[Section103]

My answer (and I dont consider myself a seller at all, though I did have to liquidate a major chunk of my collection not all that long ago) is to just not sell to that person again. This too might ruffle some feathers, but I dont think Im obligated to sell to "just anyone" if I list on BST. If I had a bad interaction with a member, I reserve the right to not deal with that person again. Leon can crack me in the head and tell me if Im wrong. And I should note, Ive never had the slightest of issue with anyone here. Fortunately, I think Im pretty easy going about all transactions and, like I said, I very rarely sell.

[sycks22]

I can see both sides of the tape. If someone tells a seller up front that they're going to put it in their collection and talk down the seller based on these ideas then sells it I have a beef with that. If a seller lists any items for any price and someone buys it at that price and attempts to sell it for a little more there's no problem with that. Calvindog: saying that someone is getting screwed if they buy a card for more than it went for at an auction house is crazy. Do you think people get screwed if they lost out on a T206 Plank for $40k, but then months later they buy it for $65k in another auction? Have you ever purchased a card that sold for less at an auction? Were you screwed in that situation?

[Jewish-collector]

It happens all the time with the auction houses. Buyer wins card from auction house A, consigns it shortly there after to auction house B. New Buyer wins it, consigns it to auction house C, etc,... It's no big deal. All the buyers from all the auction houses know each other. They talk/discuss/ have a beer about it when they see each other at the National.

It's the same thing on B/S/T, just with fewer zeroes for the prices

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

It happens all the time with the auction houses. Buyer wins card from auction house A, consigns it shortly there after to auction house B. New Buyer wins it, consigns it to auction house C, etc,... It's no big deal. All the buyers from all the auction houses know each other. They talk/discuss/ have a beer about it when they see each other at the National.

It's the same thing on B/S/T, just with fewer zeroes for the prices

Well said

[sportscardpete]

I get the point that once you sell a card, you lose all rights to it. However, it's just annoying when you sell a card, and see that some one flaunted around for a higher price. I'd rather just not deal with that and sell it to someone who will actually appreciate it....

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

I get the point that once you sell a card, you lose all rights to it. However, it's just annoying when you sell a card, and see that some one flaunted around for a higher price. I'd rather just not deal with that and sell it to someone who will actually appreciate it....

Believe me...they appreciate it

[novakjr]

Obviously, I see both sides to this...And while I agree that a buyer is free to do what they want with an item, there should be some common sense and etiquette in regards to items that are obviously listed low enough that it's almost a gift-like extension to the fellow "collectors" on this board..

Clearly, there's nothing worse than missing an incredible deal. But there are so many great people on this board, that when I do miss one, I find it easy to think to myself "good for him", and move on.

However, these quick flip practices could lead to those type of deals disappearing. So as a flipper, when you see one of the obviously courteous collector deals, you should just leave it alone, because you're potentially screwing us all over in the long run, just to make a buck..

That said. I believe that a large portion of the items in the BST fall into this category, or at least close. Otherwise they would've been listed on the bay.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

I get the point that once you sell a card, you lose all rights to it. However, it's just annoying when you sell a card, and see that some one flaunted around for a higher price. I'd rather just not deal with that and sell it to someone who will actually appreciate it....

It's odd to me that your point seems to be lost on some.

I once had someone on the board beg me for a rare cigar box - they claimed that it was from a company that their family had founded, and it would mean a lot to them to have it, but they couldn't afford to pay my asking price (which was more than fair). I gave it to them for a song, and guess what? They flipped it shortly thereafter and made a huge profit.

So those of you supporting the flippers really don't understand how something like this could be annoying? Please.

I won't debate just to be debating, but I understand how it can be fun and intellectually stimulating.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I once had someone on the board beg me for a rare cigar box - they claimed that it was from a company that their family had founded, and it would mean a lot to them to have it, but they couldn't afford to pay my asking price (which was more than fair). I gave it to them for a song, and guess what? They flipped it shortly thereafter and made a huge profit.

this. you being a soulless greed-driven do anything for a buck cardshark is fine...just don't drag your family history, dying father, handicapped son, or current medical condition in to get over on us. we're easy and friendly, it would've probably worked without the sob story. save those for when you really need it, not for a card you'll flip a week later.

at least we don't get the "PU of the year" on the main board and a few days later card shows up on BST for at least 2x...or soliciting offers while posting card in the PU thread.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

People can do what they want with what they buy obviously. My problem is when someone begs you for a low price on a card because of his great love for the card -- and then days later has it up on BST at a much higher price. That has happened on here to me. Second, the guys that buy stuff from a known auction house and then days later have it up on BST for double the price -- it's just unethical to some degree. We try to watch out for one another on here -- or at least I hope that we would. Don't be so quick to try to rip off someone here. Memories are long and if you try to screw someone once you may find the next time he has a card to sell you you're going to get scalped.

The 1st scenario is galling but, frankly, involves a line of reasoning from the buyer that I've never found persuasive, as I've always felt that why a buyer wants a card is irrelevant to my pricing and decisionmaking. Or maybe I'm just a bigger dick than you are, Jeff

On the 2nd scenario, I don't see the guy trying to flip a major auction purchase as unethical. Kinda dumb, but not unethical.

[Ladder7]

Long ago, I'd sold a card that later appeared back in the Board, marked up. Noone bit, so I made an offer with a fair profit that was rejected. And oh, the card did not sell at that time.

Some months later. I received an inquiry from this chump for another card I was selling... Needless to say, he was ignored.

For those with the objective response. It's an easy, safe stance to take, until it happens to you. Just remember, this is a community, not a straw market. Payback can happen long-time. Steve F

[barrysloate]

I consider a lot of what people say during a transaction to be background noise, and I try to tune it out. I don't care if you're buying something to give to your sick grandmother, or that you promise to keep it in your collection until the day you die. Every transaction is an agreement between a buyer and a seller, and once the buyer receives payment, and the seller receives the merchandise, the deal is completed. Of course you would ideally like to see some good will transacted too, but it's not a contingency of the deal. If I sell you a card and five minutes later you douse it with kerosene and light a match, I may be very disappointed but I have no control over it.

Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. People do lie, some have a change of heart, some run into financial troubles, some have bigger eyes than their wallets allow and have a need to sell the card they promised would never leave their collection. Just make sure that you are happy at the point you sell something, and understand you can't control what might happen in the future. I wish everybody were totally honest in their dealings but they are not. But I wouldn't sell something based on a sob story; economics is what dictates the deal. Understand that going in. and don't set yourself up for disappointment.

[Brendan]

While I would be slightly angry at myself if someone made a large profit on a card I sold shortly thereafter, I'd have no reason to be angry at the person who sold it. As far as I'm concerned, when I buy a card it's my property and I can do whatever I want with it. If the seller isn't happy because I sell it for more than I bought it for, he should have charged a higher price.

Lying about reasons that you want the card is a whole different story. That's just plain lying. From what I've seen, most people are lying when they use their situation for leverage in a deal. Most people have a certain amount of pride and wouldn't make some excuse for why they should get a card cheaper than someone else. It's the people who don't that will make up some story.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by sycks22

I can see both sides of the tape. If someone tells a seller up front that they're going to put it in their collection and talk down the seller based on these ideas then sells it I have a beef with that. If a seller lists any items for any price and someone buys it at that price and attempts to sell it for a little more there's no problem with that. Calvindog: saying that someone is getting screwed if they buy a card for more than it went for at an auction house is crazy. Do you think people get screwed if they lost out on a T206 Plank for $40k, but then months later they buy it for $65k in another auction? Have you ever purchased a card that sold for less at an auction? Were you screwed in that situation?

Pete, you know I'm not talking about months later. I'm talking about hours later. I think we both know what I'm talking about.

[seablaster]

I agree with the others. A certain amount of etiquette must be maintained. If more and more individuals experience this, we'll see more items on the eBay BIN museum.

Let me pose this scenario: you win one of Leon's contests and receive a card. You lose interest in it and sell it on the BST. In my opinion, this is unacceptable. My feeling would be either A) hold another contest and give it away or B) don't enter to start with and let someone who wants the card win it.

By the rationale some of you support, the card is now yours and you can do with it whatever you please. I don't feel that way necessarily.

[felada]

I think common sense on the bst would be if you want five cards from a set you can put them in a single post instead of individual posts

[barrysloate]

I don't think any ethical boundaries are crossed by reselling a card an hour after it's purchased, but I will say that the person who does so certainly needs a refresher course in Marketing 101. The best objects in the antique world are the ones that are fresh to the market, and the worst are the ones that are recycled again and again. So at the very least if I were buying purely for resale I would try to sock an item away for a few months, at least long enough so that prospective buyers might actually forget where it came from. Could there be a more stupid way to market a card than to buy it from a major auction house on Monday, and then put it up for sale on Tuesday for double that price? It's absolutely the worst possible way to do business. For starters, you will be mocked on this board. That's bad enough.

[AndyG09]

Originally Posted by felada

I think common sense on the bst would be if you want five cards from a set you can put them in a single post instead of individual posts

Exactly! I'm sure posters who are knocked down the page would agree too.

Best,
Andy

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by AndyG09

Exactly! I'm sure posters who are knocked down the page would agree too.

Best,
Andy

Also bumping a post where you list a card you are looking to purchase after only 3 days. I have bumped several WTB listings of my own, but I always wait at least 30 days before bumping such a listing.

Originally Posted by Jacklitsch

Post on the BST by Dad for cards for his young son and after making the gift find the card on the BST a month later.

This is BS. No wonder I caught flack when I started collecting the 206's for my daughter Melody. My girl would probably burn whats left of my cards if I sold any of hers. She found My Donovan Hindu last night. I tried telling her its mine but I guess I might not get this one back Best place I could think of for it.

[Leon]

I agree with most everything said except one thing, sort of. I am sure there will be contests in the future that have cards again. Once someone wins a card in one of the contests I actually hope they will sell it if not interested. I never thought the card contest card had/has any sanctity. A few winners have told me they would be selling them, even though they didn't have to tell me, and I was perfectly fine with that. Since I am the one picking the card I would be an idiot to think whoever wins it will always have an interest in it. Once they win they can do whatever they want with it.

As I said all along I think if you are honest in your dealings the rest will take care of itself. Please do let me know of abuses on the BST too....Be courteous to your fellow collectors is the overriding rule. (since there are no firm Net54baseball rules for the BST)