If You Started A Grading/Authentication service today...

[Phil68]

I posted this over at CU...

Using what you've learned from your experiences and needs regarding 3rd party G/A, what would your business model look like? You're in charge. Go...

[familytoad]

I'd start with the basic customer service model.
What do the customers actually want from such a product?

It's becoming easy to list what they DON'T want, which is much of what they are getting.

Here's a list off the top of my head on what a new service would need to provide:

• Impartiality.
• Intelligence on the market conditions.
• Integrity.
• Fair,consistent grading no matter who the submitter is.
• Solid, secure,attractive holders. Reasonable font size.
• Population reports with full data on variations etc
• Registry sets, easy way to register them with ownership changes.
• Reasonable wait times.
• Responsive, interactive service with submitters
• Some Hobby altruism to ensure the life cycle of their product and the hobby itself
• More integrity.

[conor912]

I wouldn’t grade. I’d authenticate and slab and let collectors decide for themselves what grade it is.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by conor912

I wouldn’t grade. I’d authenticate and slab and let collectors decide for themselves what grade it is.

I would also have a thinner and smaller slab so that having a complete graded set wouldn’t be an albatross.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by conor912

I would also have a thinner and smaller slab so that having a complete graded set wouldn’t be an albatross.

I hear you there...

I have personally experimented with various molds and a holder really cannot be made smaller than PSA's without getting to the brink of compromising strength. Beckett, SGC and PSA have done a great job designing their holders (kills me to give any credit there, but they earned it). You could, perhaps, take up to 1/16" on each side which would give you almost .13" smaller both ways and still maintain a workable ultrasonic seal and still be able to holder '52-'56 and smaller (using an insert).

Each mold and horn you make requires a pretty hefty investment. Truth is, a workable new holder would look pretty different than what folks are used to and actually be a touch BIGGER. Not huge, but bigger. Each would be a virtual art presentation.

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I hear you there...

I have personally experimented with various molds and a holder really cannot be made smaller than PSA's without getting to the brink of compromising strength. Beckett, SGC and PSA have done a great job designing their holders (kills me to give any credit there, but they earned it). You could, perhaps, take up to 1/16" on each side which would give you almost .13" smaller both ways and still maintain a workable ultrasonic seal and still be able to holder '52-'56 and smaller (using an insert).

Each mold and horn you make requires a pretty hefty investment. Truth is, a workable new holder would look pretty different than what folks are used to and actually be a touch BIGGER. Not huge, but bigger. Each would be a virtual art presentation.

Try using a different material for making the slabs and get away from the idea of an ultrasonic sealer. There IS a material and A WAY to seal it that will revolutionize the grading industry but you have to find it if you are planning to use it. Waterproof, UV blocker, flame retardant to over 600 degrees, unbreakable, and once sealed would require a band saw to open. The molds would require heating the sheet and press molding it so no injection molds. Could be done in your garage if you had the right stuff.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I hear you there...

I have personally experimented with various molds and a holder really cannot be made smaller than PSA's without getting to the brink of compromising strength. Beckett, SGC and PSA have done a great job designing their holders (kills me to give any credit there, but they earned it). You could, perhaps, take up to 1/16" on each side which would give you almost .13" smaller both ways and still maintain a workable ultrasonic seal and still be able to holder '52-'56 and smaller (using an insert).

Each mold and horn you make requires a pretty hefty investment. Truth is, a workable new holder would look pretty different than what folks are used to and actually be a touch BIGGER. Not huge, but bigger. Each would be a virtual art presentation.

I guess I was thinking more about thickness than anything else. I don’t see why we can have a “slab” that’s basically a top loader with a gasket and the 4th side sealed shut. Yes it would need to be taller to accommodate some sort of flip and no it would not be as strong, but I’ve honestly never once felt like I needed more protection than a top loader. Maybe some guys toss their cards down flights of stairs....I don’t know.

[buymycards]

Originally Posted by conor912

I wouldn’t grade. I’d authenticate and slab and let collectors decide for themselves what grade it is.

The only grades would be authentic or not authentic.

[drcy]

Make sure it is never a publically traded company, so stock prices et al are never a part of the grading and authenticating and information process.

It should be a non-profit group (Which does not mean graders and workers don't get paid a fair salary and that money can't be invested back into the system).

It should have an outside board of directors who are concerned with the authentication and grading accuracy and process and how to disseminate that information to the public, not stock prices.

It should be treated as an academic endeavor. It should not be an "investment insurance" company.

I think it should stick to authentication (including alteration detection), and provide quality high-grade images for provenance, quality control and so people can grade fo themselves.

* * * *

I am not against a current board of experts being made to give opinions on the state of grading in the hobby. The hobby should start one right now, maybe something through SABR which is a well-known and respect non-profit academic group.

[JollyElm]

I would make every inch of the slab pitch black, 100% opaque, except for the label. Then the card itself wouldn't matter at all, just the number put on the holder...as it should be.

psalabelblack.jpg

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by drcy

Make sure it is never a publically traded company, so stock prices et al are never a part of the grading and authenticating and information process.

It should be a non-profit group (Which does not mean graders and workers don't get paid a fair salary and that money can't be invested back into the system).

It should have an outside board of directors who are concerned with the authentication and grading accuracy and process and how to disseminate that information to the public, not stock prices.

It should be treated as an academic endeavor. It should not be an "investment insurance" company.

I think it should stick to authentication (including alteration detection), and provide quality high-grade images for provenance, quality control and so people can grade fo themselves.

* * * *

I am not against a current board of experts being made to give opinions on the state of grading in the hobby. The hobby should start one right now, maybe something through SABR which is a well-known and respect non-profit academic group.

This is most in-line with my thoughts.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by buymycards

The only grades would be authentic or not authentic.

I think there should be 2 grades:
Authentic / Counterfeit
Original / Altered

Then a brief description of any alterations on the back label such as:

Recolored
Trimmed
Corners

[Phil68]

I saw where PSA took this exact thread down after one reply. What did I miss? Has that whole company lost its collective mind? I haven't been on community message boards for awhile but if you can't discuss what collectors value on a collector chatboard...what, exactly, should one discuss? I would think they would watch that thread like a hawk and respond to the needs/wants of their customers where it's possible...maybe even engage in responses of why something isn't feasible, etc.
The moderator said it could "get ugly"?

If I asked "How does everyone like their Italian beef?" on a sandwich shop board and they closed the question, I'd wonder what the heck I was eating, Lol.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I think there should be 2 grades:
Authentic / Counterfeit
Original / Altered

Then a brief description of any alterations on the back label such as:

Recolored
Trimmed
Corners

This is what I’d like to happen as well. But the grading company must actually know how to detect and assess alteration, and do it with 100% impartiality. A far cry from what we have now.

Number grades are purely subjective, and only lead to fraud and corruption. They feed the egos that fuel the worst attributes within our hobby. And who needs a 3rd party to assess a number grade anyway? It’s the collector’s damn property - not theirs. So just confirm the authenticity, then let US determine the aesthetics. People are way too hypnotized and conditioned to believe a number is a necessity.

[RCMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I think there should be 2 grades:
Authentic / Counterfeit
Original / Altered

Then a brief description of any alterations on the back label such as:

Recolored
Trimmed
Corners

I would like a tpg like this, but I doubt the people with a Jeter rookie would like it. Am I wrong that a 7 sells for $250 and a 10 sells for $166,000. Maybe I missed it, and the 10 is some type of refractor/insert? You can't really put that horse back in the barn.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by familytoad

I'd start with the basic customer service model.
What do the customers actually want from such a product?

It's becoming easy to list what they DON'T want, which is much of what they are getting.

Here's a list off the top of my head on what a new service would need to provide:

• Impartiality.
• Intelligence on the market conditions.
• Integrity.
• Fair,consistent grading no matter who the submitter is.
• Solid, secure,attractive holders. Reasonable font size.
• Population reports with full data on variations etc
• Registry sets, easy way to register them with ownership changes.
• Reasonable wait times.
• Responsive, interactive service with submitters
• Some Hobby altruism to ensure the life cycle of their product and the hobby itself
• More integrity.

I would agree with everything on you list, but add a determination by a mechanized process of authenticity and verification of no alterations (trimming, recoloring, corners rebuilt, etc.).

[slightlyrounded]

Great question.

For me, I would pay a premium if I could have a public online report matching the slab number. Something that included:

• List of authentication sources consulted. This might include prior public sales, internal repository of notes, or a specialist for a particular issue.
• Reasoning for an assigned grade (Similar to BGS, but with notes unique to card)
• EXACT card dimensions
• High resolution scans, with micrography if possible.
• Ownership/provenance registry (public or private depending on submitter's preference).
• Grader employee number, if not name. This would ensure any 'patterns' could be monitored by the hobby.

Would love to see a ton of optionality on slab presentation. In other words, could be a plain frame (submitter choses colour/style), or might contain information on front (grade, card number, year) as they do now. I personally would prefer a smaller slab, frame only, with any information on the reverse.

Finally - It would be great to have a company that is regularly willing to stick their neck out on forums and actually explain reasoning behind certain decisions or problems. Eg: "We missed these trimmed cards, here's why, and here is what we intend to do about it"........Or, "turnaround times are at 5 weeks, but here is how we intend to bring wait times down."

[toledo_mudhen]

[QUOTE=slightlyrounded;1941824]
[*]- Reasoning for an assigned grade (Similar to BGS, but with notes unique to card)

This one is really irritating - Pretty much everyone who has been in the hobby for any length of time can get into the "ballpark" on what a card should grade.

Too often you get your slabbed card back with only a

"To Bad"
"Not Good Enough"
"You lose"
"Have Nice Day"

[T206Collector]

- A report for each card, similar to how the diamond industry does it, so you know where the flaws on the card are without having to guess.

- Some objective, impartial, computer-based system that would recognize the “fingerprints” on the card no matter how many times it was submitted.

- No more number grades, just “this is your card, here are the flaws, if you submit it to us again we will know it’s the same card even if you shave the border, recolor it, etc.”

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I posted this over at CU...

Using what you've learned from your experiences and needs regarding 3rd party G/A, what would your business model look like? You're in charge. Go...

I would start by trying to raise at least $10,000,000 ABOUT THE COST start up of a small operation one 1/20th of the size of PSA that would likely be out of business with in a year for lack of business.
But at least I can tell my investors my intentions were honorable.

[Phil68]

Originally Posted by megalimey

I would start by trying to raise at least $10,000,000 ABOUT THE COST start up of a small operation one 1/20th of the size of PSA that would likely be out of business with in a year for lack of business.
But at least I can tell my investors my intentions were honorable.

Nobody said anything about re-designing and re-opening PSA here. Virtually every person here would do a better job than that company currently does, so why are they still thriving? Habit? Collectors have no balls?

A service company wouldn't cost anywhere near 10m. You could start with basic and simple services that would cost around 25k. Then enjoy your philanthropy until you could find a service that may eat some of your costs...then, if you're lucky and attentive to collector needs, perhaps find one service that can make you a few bucks. The goal for many wouldn't be to get investors and be public. This is theoretical and only posted to learn what collectors value.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I posted this over at CU...

Using what you've learned from your experiences and needs regarding 3rd party G/A, what would your business model look like? You're in charge. Go...

IMO any successful business model would need to be predicated on a grading methodology that gives reasonable assurance the card has not been altered. As has been discussed ad nauseum, current grading methods will not detect expert alterations. Technology needs to be incorporated into the system to scientifically determine whether a card has been trimmed, color added, creases removed, corners spooned out. Granted, such a system will not be able to detect with 100% certainty whether a card has been altered. But if the technology exists or comes into being to have the probability of detecting alterations beyond a certain threshold, say 95% (two standard deviations), IMO game eventually over, assuming the startup is sufficiently capitalized. Why?

Because if the company was to randomly purchase several hundred PSA T206s graded 8 or higher and have them regraded using this new technology, I would wager the GREAT majority will be found to have been altered in one form or another. At that point the startup sets up at every major show and advertises in every major hobby publication touting these results; it would also try to get national and regional press coverage.

ASSUMING this were to happen, what NEW collector/investor would possibly be willing to pay big dollars for a PSA T206 unless it was regraded under this new method? And without a continued supply of new collectors/investors to the hobby being willing to buy graded cards at their current price levels, prices will plummet. Remember, these new collectors/investors have no current skin in the market, and their rational purchasing decisions would be based on what something actually is, not on some fantasy notion of what they want something to be. In contrast, the current owners/registry collectors view of rational buying behavior is not to do anything to cast doubt on the validity of the current grading system.

I recognize that many on this Board will think I am in la la land with this viewpoint. But, again, assuming the technology to do this exists/comes into being and becomes the system by which this new company grades cards, then IMO it simply a matter of adequate capitalization and marketing acumen to get the necessary word out. At that point, I believe this new company eventually becomes for certain issues the main TPG.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Phil68

I posted this over at CU...

Using what you've learned from your experiences and needs regarding 3rd party G/A, what would your business model look like? You're in charge. Go...

One that is honest.