Altered? Who cares? 52T REA Mantle AUTH ALT

[Peter_Spaeth]

Multiple, disclosed alterations and the card still sells for 45K? The times they have a changed.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...?itemid=186584

Encapsulated as Authentic by PSA due to being trimmed along multiple edges and color added. There is also evidence suggesting the card has been pressed to conceal creases and wrinkles.

[BigfootIsReal]

I don't get it either. I'll NEVER buy an altered card......EVER. Jack Daniels bought this one. You can get a 2 at that price

[parkplace33]

Odds on how fast that card is cracked out and resubmitted?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Odds on how fast that card is cracked out and resubmitted?

Trimmed, color added, and creases pressed out, and someone is going to grade it on resubmission??

[Johnny630]

This card has been smashed. I could see this ending up in another TPG's holder with a number grade very shortly.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

This card has been smashed. I could see this ending up in another TPG's holder with a number grade very shortly.

And who do you think is corrupt enough to grade it?

[Lorewalker]

Wow that is an astonishing price to pay for that card. It is a mess and then some. There is absolutely no chance any of the big 4 TPG give it a number grade. Not even Kurt's Card Care can save this one...or can it?????

[butchie_t]

My take and it is somewhat different.

If it is for my PC and it is the last card I need to finish my 52T set, mind you, if I was ever to work on that set, none of the cards would ever be close to pristine by any means.

But, last card and a bargain????(relative term, bargain.). Well I'm gonna break it out of the slab anyway and put it in a binder with the set. I would keep the tag and store it with the card.

I'd be thinking somewhat long and hard about that from my POV.

Now investment and an eventual future sale. No, not from my perspective would I go that route.

Quite the conundrum for me and that is just me.


Butch

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

My take and it is somewhat different.

If it is for my PC and it is the last card I need to finish my 52T set, mind you, if I was ever to work on that set, none of the cards would ever be close to pristine by any means.

But, last card and a bargain????(relative term, bargain.). Well I'm gonna break it out of the slab anyway and put it in a binder with the set. I would keep the tag and store it with the card.

I'd be thinking somewhat long and hard about that from my POV.

Now investment and an eventual future sale. No, not from my perspective would I go that route.

Quite the conundrum for me and that is just me.


Butch

The answer there is easy. Just buy an "honest" card that's rough and comparable in price (or less) to this one. That can be done with ease.

I wouldn't wan't this gussied-up FrankenCard.

[jingram058]

Fools and money. Makes you wonder how they got it. More often than not, they inherited it.

[raulus]

I guess it's sort of that whole "restored" dynamic, similar to what we saw with that T206 Wagner.

[sb1]

It is similar now to high-dollar collector cars, there are original whether it be a barnfind or meticulously curated, versus partial to complete restoration. The original's always bring the most, but there is a definite demand for the restored versions as well.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Multiple, disclosed alterations and the card still sells for 45K? The times they have a changed.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...?itemid=186584

Encapsulated as Authentic by PSA due to being trimmed along multiple edges and color added. There is also evidence suggesting the card has been pressed to conceal creases and wrinkles.

"EYE Appeal"

[packs]

What would a card like this feel like? Does it feel like something’s strange when you handle it? I would think the pressing would be noticeable when handling the card raw. I guess the slab keeps everyone at a distance but I’m wondering what these cards feel like.

[GasHouseGang]

I understand how to detect several of these "improvements", but how do they detect color added? I had a card that came back from grading that said it had color added, and I couldn't see anything using a UV light. Is there a better way to detect it?

[bmattioli]

I'd like to see this Raw in person at least it's well centered..

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I understand how to detect several of these "improvements", but how do they detect color added? I had a card that came back from grading that said it had color added, and I couldn't see anything using a UV light. Is there a better way to detect it?

They guess.

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I understand how to detect several of these "improvements", but how do they detect color added? I had a card that came back from grading that said it had color added, and I couldn't see anything using a UV light. Is there a better way to detect it?

I guess there are some coloring agents that won't fluoresce, but UV light will glow most color added.

If you see any area of the card where maybe there looks like wear or damage that probably should have exposed the underlying paper/cardboard but it's still colored, that might be an area to suspect.

Do you have a cert number for it where there is an image? I always like looking for stuff that.

.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

They do own a VSC (video spectral comparator). If you're not familiar, look it up.

[Seven]

I have a couple of cards in my collection that were slabbed "Altered" It offered a cheaper way to pick up a card for my PC that looks nice. If the choice was between a 1 that looks like it's been through the ringer or the Altered that presents nicely, I'll take the latter. I understand that might be sacrilege to some people, but collecting on a budget can be difficult at times.

All that being said, what I cannot stand is cards that are clearly altered ending up in numbered holders. Altered should be labeled as such, not passed as something with a number grade to achieve a higher profit.

[JustinD]

I guess I am the oddball but as long as it’s correctly labeled and stays that way, I don’t have an issue. I do have a strong issue when people do it to deceive. Something like this is never getting by a Tpg with that level of restoration.

If you want a display piece, there’s nothing close you are getting for that money. Seems like it sold for the right amount when so many altered cards that snuck by the goalie sell for 10x that. I kinda feel it’s more honest to buy this than a vintage 8 or 9 I know was likely tweaked but feel better because it has a number.

[sbfinley]

“Buy the card, not the holder.”


Guy buys card.



“No not like that.”

[BigfootIsReal]

Originally Posted by bmattioli

I'd like to see this Raw in person at least it's well centered..

Ummm, maybe because it's Trimmed!!!! Hello....McFly

[t206fanatic]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

“Buy the card, not the holder.”


Guy buys card.



“No not like that.”

got a chuckle out of me

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

“Buy the card, not the holder.”


Guy buys card.



“No not like that.”

Hahah.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And who do you think is corrupt enough to grade it?

Flip a coin it could be any.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by BigfootIsReal

Ummm, maybe because it's Trimmed!!!! Hello....McFly

It appears to be to be smashed flattened out to me.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Trimmed, color added, and creases pressed out, and someone is going to grade it on resubmission??

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And who do you think is corrupt enough to grade it?

Probably the same company as they have to have by far the most altered/counterfeit/reprints with number grades. Don't worry because their slabs get the most money. Also at least that Mantle is graded correctly unlike the majority of them. Most have had work done to them and got a number grade. More than one of the bigger card doctors have openly admitted they personally have worked on hundreds of 52 Topps Mantle cards.

[raulus]

It does seem like one of the major questions is whether all this doctoring increased the value of the card, or whether the card would have been worth more if it remained in its original state.

I suspect the whole crux of the matter is financial incentives. If I can take a card that might otherwise sell for $25k, and turn it into $50k with $1k in restoration, even if the restoration is disclosed, known, and understood, then it seems like you're looking at some pretty serious incentives for a large swath of cards to suddenly move into the restoration phase, and open wide the floodgates for some now-honest profiteering from the hobby's card doctors/restoration groups. (Since it's disclosed, it's honest, natch).

Of course, this pricing dynamic may be unique to cardboard where the supply dramatically overwhelms demand, such as with the T206 Wagner, or the 311 Mantle. Would the same economics apply to a heretofore beat up and newly restored 1966T common, or even a 1966T from a major HOFer? Probably not, simply because I can probably get a very nice one (ostensibly that hasn't gone under the knife) for less than the cost of the restoration.

[Keith H. Thompson]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I guess I am the oddball but as long as it’s correctly labeled and stays that way, I don’t have an issue. I do have a strong issue when people do it to deceive. Something like this is never getting by a Tpg with that level of restoration.

If you want a display piece, there’s nothing close you are getting for that money. Seems like it sold for the right amount when so many altered cards that snuck by the goalie sell for 10x that. I kinda feel it’s more honest to buy this than a vintage 8 or 9 I know was likely tweaked but feel better because it has a number.

"something like this is never getting by a Tpg" I'm still standing in awe over a business model where we collectors hand over large sums of money and a piece of cardboard to a clerk at the TPA. It then disappears behind presumably closed doors and a few grown men and boys decide how much it it is worth. And we can do it over and over again until we get it "right." Right ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Keith H. Thompson

"something like this is never getting by a Tpg" I'm still standing in awe over a business model where we collectors hand over large sums of money and a piece of cardboard to a clerk at the TPA. It then disappears behind presumably closed doors and a few grown men and boys decide how much it it is worth. And we can do it over and over again until we get it "right." Right ?

At its heart it's a brilliant business model because it facilitates signt unseen purchases by purporting to objectify/standardize both authenticity and condition of a collectible with no inherent value. That said, it's become corrupted by basic human dishonesty.

[samosa4u]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And who do you think is corrupt enough to grade it?

Come on, Peter !! You've been in this hobby for decades and you know how it works! lol

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I guess I am the oddball but as long as it’s correctly labeled and stays that way, I don’t have an issue. I do have a strong issue when people do it to deceive. Something like this is never getting by a Tpg with that level of restoration.

If you want a display piece, there’s nothing close you are getting for that money. Seems like it sold for the right amount when so many altered cards that snuck by the goalie sell for 10x that. I kinda feel it’s more honest to buy this than a vintage 8 or 9 I know was likely tweaked but feel better because it has a number.

I'm with you. I'd much rather have this than a creased, off-center 2.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

I can agree with the thought that restoration will be the way of the future, but guess that a lot of us who are set in our ways would opt for an "honest" beater vs. a Botox Mantle.

Note that I do agree that, if properly disclosed, a restored card is of course honest; it just affords the potential opportunity for deceit down the road.

[vintagerookies51]

What an interesting obsession people have on here with hating on altered cards... What I care about is authenticity, eye appeal and cost. If the card came from a pack in 1952 and has 0.01% of its border trimmed and maybe some color added, I could not care less since I'm getting something with the eye appeal of a 6 for a fraction of the price.

Having your own preference is one thing, but to call people idiots for their preference is just weird behavior.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by vintagerookies51

What an interesting obsession people have on here with hating on altered cards... What I care about is authenticity, eye appeal and cost. If the card came from a pack in 1952 and has 0.01% of its border trimmed and maybe some color added, I could not care less since I'm getting something with the eye appeal of a 6 for a fraction of the price.

Having your own preference is one thing, but to call people idiots for their preference is just weird behavior.

I think there is definitely an age-related factor at play as to who is more accepting of restoration. That, and people whose main motive is buying an iconic card for bragging rights to impress non-collector friends who are familiar with the card but wouldn't have a clue about alteration. To the unschooled eye, a restored card would appear more incredible than one that wasn't restored.

"Hey, non-collector buddy! Check out what I can afford to buy! It's a Mantle rookie! Gem mint! I'm successful!" *Covers flip with thumb when showing it*

[Touch'EmAll]

What is the motive when altering/doctoring a card ?

Is it to simply up the aesthetic eye appeal so the current owner (doctor) will be more pleased with their card when looking at it ?

Or is the motive to garner a higher price upon the sale, most often at the expense of an unknowing potential buyer ?

Or is the motive to do an honest public service to increase the eye appeal and to better preserve the card for future owner(s) of the card ?

How does the coin collecting community generally feel about a rare coin being altered ? I would think there are similar opinions on what is acceptable.

Or are "The Times They Are A-Changin" - and the new crowd prefers an altered/doctored card to buy with their hard earned money because it looks better in spite of the fact it has been tampered with ?

Just my rambling rhetorical questions to ponder.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Or are "The Times They Are A-Changin" - and the new crowd prefers an altered/doctored card to buy with their hard earned money because it looks better in spite of the fact it has been tampered with ?

This is a big one in my mind. We have all kinds of new collectors entering the market, none of whom have been "tainted" (terrible choice of wording) by how restoration has classically been frowned upon in this hobby. Several of these newbies are crossing over from other hobbies such as comic books, where restoration is considered wholly acceptable.

Remember, to the previously uninitiated, the general idea of restoration is seen as a good thing. We hear about it all the time: as someone else mentioned, with classic cars. Also, the fine art world, comic books, furniture, architecture. Restoration is everywhere and the word has very positive connotations when associated with practically anything else.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

This is a big one in my mind. We have all kinds of new collectors entering the market, none of whom have been "tainted" (terrible choice of wording) by how restoration has classically been frowned upon in this hobby. Several of these newbies are crossing over from other hobbies such as comic books, where restoration is considered wholly acceptable.

Remember, to the previously uninitiated, the general idea of restoration is seen as a good thing. We hear about it all the time: as someone else mentioned, with classic cars. Also, the fine art world, comic books, furniture, architecture. Restoration is everywhere and the word has very positive connotations when associated with practically anything else.

Sure, when it's disclosed, it's fine. When it's concealed and done to deceive, it's not. Our beloved card doctors and their enablers at all levels of the hobby have made millions from blatant fraudulent deception.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sure, when it's disclosed, it's fine. When it's concealed and done to deceive, it's not. Our beloved card doctors have made millions from blatant fraudulent deception.

Oh, I agree. I should have added similar verbiage to my last post just to be clear about that. Thanks.

[Touch'EmAll]

If someone wants to doctor a card they own, then that's their perogative. If they can get it to where it looks like a EX/NM copy then that's ok ... so long as the grading company they send it to appropriately slabs it as "authentic altered". Then anyone who buys cards for eye appeal and could care less about doctoring should be able to both get a nice looking card and at a more affordable price. But in no way should a grading company give the card a numerical grade - then we get into a whole mess of nastiness.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I would quibble with the title of the thread.

Obviously people DO care, to the tune of about $100,000 give or take, which is the difference between what the card made with good disclosure despite it's EX/MT appearance and what an actual EX/MT example would likely go for.

[slightlyrounded]

One one hand I'd rather have the extra half-millimeter this card is missing in height; on the other hand I enjoy the $3000-$5000 I saved when purchasing. It quite literally allowed me to purchase the rest of the set and a few C55s to boot.

[Centauri]

These cards get crazy money in bad condition. This auction seems a fair price for a card that looks really nice.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

This card has been smashed. I could see this ending up in another TPG's holder with a number grade very shortly.

Well, honestly I can tell from six feet away the recoloring done on the hat and the background above the bat and his hands. I just think if someone is in the price point of buying this cracked out then you should have an expert with knowledge examining it. Looking at this obviously pressed, trimmed, and recolored card I think the chicken littling about it getting in a numbered big three holder is winning the lottery chance unlikely. Or exactly the same as the painted restored Honus T206.

[ejharrington]

It's a very nice looking card. My only concern is whether the creases that have been pressed out will return.

[vintagerookies51]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

What is the motive when altering/doctoring a card ?

Is it to simply up the aesthetic eye appeal so the current owner (doctor) will be more pleased with their card when looking at it ?

Or is the motive to garner a higher price upon the sale, most often at the expense of an unknowing potential buyer ?

Or is the motive to do an honest public service to increase the eye appeal and to better preserve the card for future owner(s) of the card ?

How does the coin collecting community generally feel about a rare coin being altered ? I would think there are similar opinions on what is acceptable.

Or are "The Times They Are A-Changin" - and the new crowd prefers an altered/doctored card to buy with their hard earned money because it looks better in spite of the fact it has been tampered with ?

Just my rambling rhetorical questions to ponder.

This thread is about a card that is already slabbed as Authentic Altered with a detailed description of what those alterations were. I don't think anyone is condoning trying to hide alterations on a card for profit... some people prefer buying these and saving a lot of money for other cards, and some people would rather have a PSA 6. Both are OK

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

It's a very nice looking card. My only concern is whether the creases that have been pressed out will return.

They are still there, but improved or softened. You just need to know how to look for them. This buyer is not getting a crease-free card.

This is just one area of the card, front and back where the creasing runs the full length of the card, side to side. There are more areas as well.

[BigfootIsReal]

Originally Posted by Centauri

These cards get crazy money in bad condition. This auction seems a fair price for a card that looks really nice.

LOL

Gee I wonder why it looks really nice. Maybe because it's ALTERED nine ways to Sunday

[timber63401]

Originally Posted by Centauri

These cards get crazy money in bad condition. This auction seems a fair price for a card that looks really nice.

Ill never forgive myself for not picking up a rough condition one 10-12 years ago when I could of made it work. Now even poor conditioned ones are just too much for me to justify.