S74 Silks: Up, Down, or Who Cares?

[GregMitch34]

Recently got interested in the silks for first time but a little hard to figure them. I get that they come in two types, with white background and with colors; and the whites have paper backings while the colored do not. I know that Old Mill and Turkey Red are most common backs. But why are so few graded? Is one type more rare than the other? Is their value going up or down? Are they not graded because they will be judged harshly or because people want to "feel" them? Are they inevitably creased from being folded or is that mainly the ones with no backing? Thanks for any tips.

[kilo]

i hope they arent going down too much, i just sent a couple to beckett......

--mike.

[Bridwell]

I don't think PSA will even grade silks. SGC and Beckett will grade but the grades seem inconsistent. Silks with creases or wrinkles might get an EX-MT grade. Also there is usually fraying at the top or bottom. To me it seems like part of the item is missing when there is fraying. Yet, the silk might get an EX or better. Sometimes a silk will get an Auth or a 2-3 grade and it looks pretty nice in the holder.

The silks with the backing almost always have the horizontal crease. I'd say 90% of the time.

Some of the color silks without the fraying or wrinkling are really beautiful.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I don't collect them myself, but I do think the colored silks look much nicer than the white ones. However, personally I'd rather just have the T205 counterpart anyway.

AndyH

.

[Vintagecatcher]

The colored S74 silks are one of my favorite items to collect. I started putting together a run of Chief Meyers silks with different colors. They make a great display, but you have to be patient. I'm lucky to pick up 1 or 2 a year.


http://home.myfairpoint.net/vintagec...her/id107.html


Enjoy,


Patrick

[BobC]

Have collected the S74 silks for quite some time now and have always liked the images and fact they shared those images with both the T205 and T202 cards. You're correct in that Old Mill and Turkey Red are the most common backs. I'm not really aware of one being more rare than the other, and there's definitely no pricing premium for one or the other. The silks also came with Red Sun or Helmar backs, both of which are extremely rare in my opinion to find and should command a premium. Of the two, Helmar is definitely the rarer. I've seen pictures of Helmar backed silks but, never even held one in hand.

As to why so few are graded, there's probably several good reasons. First, the grading companies set up criteria to grade cards. The silks aren't really cards, were supposedly folded when put into cigarette packs, and don't get nicked or dinged corners, they just fray. So the grading companies probably didn't have any consistent grading criteria to apply and thus, didn't originally bother to grade them. (Of course that probably changed when they finally realized they'd still make money off of grading them.) Secondly, people like the graded cards because they're protected form further damage. If you accidently drop a silk on the ground, you're not going to ding a corner. Third, graded cards are supposed to assure authenticity and with all the internet sales and activity in cards, third party grading is almost considered a requirement, especially as the card values increase. Meanwhile, I've never heard of or seen any faked S74 silks. I know Topps has done some silk type modern cards in recent years but, they don't even compare to the original silks from 100 years ago. I question if the material and technology to try to reprint the silks as they were originally done even exists today. And then the fact that the silks are relatively inexpensive when compared to their T205 and T202 counterparts would probably make it financially not worth it to try to create a fake or reprinted silk. Lastly, someone already mentioned the inconsistency of grading the silks. Other than the silks with paper backing that got folded when put into the packs, unbacked white silks or colored silks are just material, you can iron them nice and flat if you like. Every time I see a graded silk with all kinds of folds and bend marks in it that doesn't have the paper backing attached, I just roll my eyes and laugh. For whatever reason, there isn't a huge collector base for the silks so those that do collect them don't necessarily worry about getting them graded. especially if they don't have the paper backing attached.

Not sure if people want to feel the silks and actually, they aren't even silk. If you read the description on the paper backing attached to a white silk they note they are a satin material. Never heard exactly where their designation as a "silk" came from unless it was because most of the similar premiums being placed in cigarette packs in that day were of silk and so the generic term "silks" was just applied to all such tobacco insert premiums of a material nature.

The silks were never overly expensive to begin with and haven't really gone up or down in value much in recent years. Surprisingly, the high grade colored silks seem to have a higher value or worth to collectors than comparable white silks with the paper backing still attached. Since it is rarer to find the silks with the paper backing still attached you would think the opposite would be true but, strangely not.

Hope this helps you out.


Bob C

[Leon]

Nice write up Bob. I have heard there are only 3 known S74 silks with the Helmar back currently known. Two of them are Cobb and one is a common. The other Cobb went for $6500+ in a Lipset auction and this one shown was a little less than that, but not a lot . This Turkey Red Parent is an SGC80 which is one of the highest graded ones I have seen. I think there was a Red Sun Cobb in an 84 holder in a Huggins and Scott auction some time back. Large scan because it can be seen better an there aren't any other scans in this thread. I love the misfit ones and the Cobby that is purple'ish/mauve.....

[Paul S]

Oh my, now I feel that I have to have some. By they way, if not holdered how do people store them?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Paul S

Oh my, now I feel that I have to have some. By they way, if not holdered how do people store them?

Penny sleeve and top loader for me...just like cards.

[kilo]

Penny sleeve and top loader for me...just like cards.

+1 here too....

--mike.

[BobC]

Hi Leon,

I remember that Helmar backed Cobb and was talking to the owner of it who said I had dibs if the current person he was negotiating with to buy it fell through. Of course you were the person he was talking about. LOL

Still, I don't even think these S74 silks could be faked today. That being said, why get them graded? Only thing I would possibly worry about is if someone tried to take a paper backing off one silk and re-attach it to another silk. You know, like pulling one off an Orval Overall and sticking it on a Cobb or Mathewson. Not sure of the composition of the adhesives they used back then but, I'd guess it was a simple water based glue formula. I've often wondered if someone just took some Elmer's glue and stuck a back on an S74 and sent it off to SGC or Beckett for grading, would they even be able to tell if the card had been re-backed?

Besides the common images the silks have with the T205s and T202s that make them interesting and attractive, another big factor in their appeal, at least in my opinion, is the different material color and ink combinations that can occur. There were three different ink colors used to produde the images on both the white and colored silks. Blue, brown and what I term a reddish-brown rust color. On the white, ad-backed silks it is really clear and easy to see the differences. What gets really interesting is when you cross over to the colored silks and see the myriad of material colors they used and how they match up with the three different ink colors used to imprint the images with. Some of the combinations can be ghastly, like a light lime-green color silk with a rust colored ink image. If you come across one of the dark red colored silks that is printed using the rust colored ink, you almost can't even see the image. Still other color and ink combinations go together very well and I think add to the visual attractiveness of the silk.

I often wondered if it was possible to find an example of each player in each color combination for the white, ad-backed silks. Would be an interesting master-type set. And then what if you tried to do such a master type set for all Old Mills backs and then another for Turkey Red backs. I wouldn't even want to think about trying that with the colored version silks. I've seen so many different material colors and variations, who knows how many distinct, separate material colors there actually were, or if it is even possible to find an example of every player in every color. Back in that day when material was dyed, it was most likely done in lots, and even when a company produced another lot of supposedly the same color material, there would likley be subtle color differences with no two lots ever being exactly the same. There are definitely some colors that were used more than others, such as light blue and pink, as opposed to more obscure colors like a light lime-green or the dark reds. The collecting base for them is so thin that I don't think you really see a premium attached to rarer colors but, maybe someday if this issue ever becomes a little more mainstream with collectors.

What I also like is when you can find actual examples of the silks used for their intended purposes, in pillows, covers and such. If I get a chance to I'll see if I can scan in this one particular silk I have where someone crocheted a very intricate black border around the entire silk. Kind of looks like it could then be used as a doily or coaster. The S74s in your type collection are very interesting, especially the miscut or off-center ones you have. Those are very rare when it comes to the silks and I've never seen others than the ones you have.

Thanks for showing them again.

Bob C

[Leon]

You are welcome Bob. And thanks for chiming in and giving some very good and experienced thoughts. You have posted more today than you have in the last 3.5 yrs on the board.

Yes, when I got the Helmar I also got almost all of that collectors collection of them, Red Suns and all. Of course, as always, I cherry picked my faves and sold the rest, just as most addicts would do. I don't think I have ever sent any in to be graded and my graded ones came that way when I got them. I just picked up a brown/rust color Bender and might get around to scanning it and posting it too. Since almost all of my cards are on my website they are already scanned so it's easy to pop them on the board when we talk about them. Plus almost every day we have new registrants so it's likely some haven't seen them before. Once again, thanks for your educated thoughts on the subject.

[BobC]

Sorry I don't post more Leon. Don't really do any scanning and most of the time everyone wants to see pics of items so they know what you're talking about. I should figure it out one of these days and I could show you what I'm talking about as far as the crocheted S74 I have.

By the way, are the S74s in your scan all the ones you've kept for your collection? I know you're a type collector and it looks like you tried to get one of every different back type for the white S74s. If those are all you have there is variant you may be missing. The Turkey Reds came with either a bordered or borderless advertising back. The bordered version you have shows a decidedly bluish ink tone/tint to it. There is also a definite black ink tone/tint version of the Turkey Red bordered backs. As far as I know and have ever seen, all the other advertising backs on the S74 white version silks are only printed in black ink. The bordered Turkey Red backs are the only ones I've ever come across that are printed in two different ink colors/tones. Not that you need to acquire another silk for your collection but.........check and see if you don't already have a black bordered Turkey Red back to complement that blue ink one in your scan.

BobC

[BobC]

Leon,

Going back to some of my comments about possibly having the paper advertising backs removed from one silk and re-glued onto another, and how difficult it might be to detect, there's also the possibility of someone picking up some of the actress silks from this same series and removing those backs and attaching them to the baseball player silks instead. As you can easily see from your own scan, it clearly indicates these silks are part of a baseball - actress series. The actress silks go for almost nothing so someone could pick up backed ones and then try to remove the backs and re-glue them onto ball player silks to increase their value. My quiz question for you, or anyone else reading this thread, is, how can you definitely tell if someone tries to use the paper backing from an actress silk to put on a ball player silk instead?

There is a way to tell. Let's see if you or anyone else knows.

BobC

[BobC]

Here's the crocheted S74 I've got. It's actually a colored version silk with the edges turned over so if you flip it you can see the tobacco brand and factory info on the back. Sorry for the scan size, never did this before and wasn't sure how to edit the size down.

BobC

[Leon]

Hi Bob
You mentioned a black bordered Turkey Red. Nope, don't have one of those. I only get "so" crazy with things. I imagine sometime I might pick one up but it's not really a major issue for me. I am sure there could be some other minor variation I am missing also. I was almost thinking you didn't scroll over far enough to see the ones on the far right, but then I saw you mention "blue" bordered. I was thinking you were saying only a bordered vs non-bordered Turkey Red, which I have covered. That is a neat crocheted-type one you showed too. I have seen several sewn items with silks on them and we have had a few in our Brockelman & Luckey Auctions.. I think we might even have one already consigned and coming up in our next auction. They go for almost nothing compared to a lot of things we collect. I still love oddities and really enjoy the few colored ones that have the mfg and factory number in the same place. My favorite one is the Miller where the silk ran out and part of the front was printed on the back cardboard. I love that thing> .

[rsst206]

Hi Bob,
Nice write up. I have been seriously collecting these for almost 10 yrs.
Every graded one I purchase gets removed. Trying to do a master set of both
whites and colored. 1100 different and counting. I am such a hoarder can't really seem to get rid of duplicates. But I think its about time. I have over 500 upgrades a lot of whites with out backs and around 100 with backs.
Eyes are getting bad and with bad scans I seem to buy the same colored one over and over. Here are some Old Mills.

I honestly wouldn't waste my money on grading these. Like stated above, haven't seen them reprinted but have seen and purchased graded trimmed ones. The grading companies who grade them are all over the board.

Any board members have any that they want to sell or trade
Ronaldscottskaggs@gmail.com

[BobC]

Hi Ron,

You and I have talked in the past and locked horns on going after some silks over the years. Back when Fleabay would actually show other bidders names I used to come in second to you so many times it wasn't funny. I'm as bad as you in regards to the silks but, only have about half as many as you have. Still don't have every single one of the white silks with a paper ad attached. Keep looking but, the ones I'm still missing never seem to come up with the paper still attached.

Leon, Understand about not going too crazy in collecting type cards. Just thought you might want to know that the Turkey Red silks that have a border on the advertising back do come in two different colors, the blue you show in your scan, and then a black version like the other silks you have. Never seen different colored backs for any of the ohter versions of the silks, they are in black ink.

As for the crocheted silk I have, you're right, they don't go for much money and you do occasionally see some silks sewn onto pillows and covers and such that come up for sale now and then. Always surprised there isn't more interest in them.

No one has taken a stab at my question yet about how you can tell if someone tries to use a paper backing from one of the actress silks and stick it on a ball player silk instead to try to increase the value. Anyone have an idea?

BobC

[t213]

I'm a closet silk hoarder and have been picking them up for the last couple years.

Andy

[BobC]

Andy,

I've seen you post and talk about collecting silks in the past I think. Weren't you at one time trying to complete the white version set, all with advertising backs attached? I seem to remember you saying you got up to somewhere in the upper 60's as to the number of different silkd from the set you had with backs still on them. And then you changed interests for some reason and divested some of your S74s and went in a different collecting direction for a while. Remember hearing you had quite a collection of the silks.

BobC

[Ease]

I asked Archive, and he says actress backs are a speckled cardboard, while ballplayer backs are smooth.

[BobC]

Its even easier to tell the difference than that. For some reason the word "baseball" is spelled as one word on all the advertising backs for the ball players while on the actress silks it is spelled "base ball", as two words. No idea why, just noticed it one time and realized it was kind of odd seeing as how these silks were all going into the same cigarette packages back in the day.

BobC

[andybecker]

Originally Posted by Ease

I asked Archive, and he says actress backs are a speckled cardboard, while ballplayer backs are smooth.

this is true.

Hi Leon, Ron, and Bob.....it's like a silk reunion

i hope you all have been well. good luck adding to your silk collections.

dibs.....lol.....

[andybecker]

has anyone found an "unfolded" red sun maroon front silk?

in my experience, all blue front red suns are unfolded while all maroon front red suns are folded.

also, regarding grading....i believe both s74-1 and s74-2 were folded when inserted into packs of tobacco....with the exception of blue front red suns which i do not believe ever made their way into packs (thus why they are found unfolded).

the sgc 84 red sun cobb that Leon mentions is a blue front, again unfolded.

is that still the highest graded s74-1?

[andybecker]

speaking of silk reunion, where's Jim? he was the master of silks. great guy.

[Touch'EmAll]

I saw this thread a while back, finally made it to safe deposit box today. Check these two out - does anyone know any higher graded Matty and Walter Johnson?