Poll - Greatest Living Player

[jayshum]

Here's a poll for greatest living player to go along with the discussion in another thread. I think I included all players mentioned in that thread as well as added a few active players. If you choose Other, please post who your vote would be for.

[Leon]

Lots of good players to choose from. I chose one with no votes yet, of course.

[Eric72]

I choose Leon Luckey.

Among other things, he's capable of juggling three threads (out of the top six) with basically the same name on the main forum.

That takes talent, I tell you...real talent.

[Rhotchkiss]

I went with Nolan Ryan, but was very close to choosing Pete Rose or Cal Ripken. All did things nobody will likely ever do again.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I choose Leon Luckey.

Among other things, he's capable of juggling three threads (out of the top six) with basically the same name on the main forum.

That takes talent, I tell you...real talent.

Thanks. The duplicate one was deleted. Juggling 2 is no big act.
It should be an interesting poll...
Carry on....
.

[z28jd]

I chose Bonds, but I considered Henderson. I had a conversation with a small group of people (no one from this site) about this yesterday and there were only four names that came up as possibilities. Bonds, Henderson, Pujols and Maddux. Only Bonds and Henderson actually got top votes, but both Pujols and Maddux got multiple honorable mentions, or as someone said, they could be convinced that it's either one of them if you had a good argument.

[bmattioli]

Pete Rose. Always have loved the ballplayer..

[jayshum]

Leon, thanks for moving this thread over.

Someone voted for Other. If they are willing to post who they would vote for, I'd like to know since I thought I listed players that covered the most likely suspects.

[Snapolit1]

Rickey.
When you look at what he did, he was in a league by himself.

[boysblue]

I went with Rickey Henderson too. Bonds second choice.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Leon, thanks for moving this thread over.

Someone voted for Other. If they are willing to post who they would vote for, I'd like to know since I thought I listed players that covered the most likely suspects.

It was me. I jokingly posted that Leon was my answer.

At the time, three of the top six threads on the main page were, "greatest living player" discussions. I found that a bit ridiculous. My poll answer matched my mood at the time.

As an aside, I'm surprised Sadaharu Oh isn't on the list. Are we only considering MLB players?

[Al C.risafulli]

I think Bonds is the choice, but Reggie and Brett probably deserve to be on the list for votes.

-Al

[Yankees #1]

Derek jeter

[JustinD]

Admittedly I picked Clemens, which I know people have issue. However, then I went with my top 5 for fun and three of them are being held out of the hall. That is a little sad to think about.

[vintagerookies51]

Bonds is the answer. Could list many stats, but his 7 MVPs when no one else in league history has more than 3 is ridiculous.

[Andrew1975]

Bonds

[packs]

Sincere question for people who pick Bonds; do you think Bonds was better than Willie Mays too? If the answer is yes, then wouldn't he have been the greatest living player this whole time?

My point is that stats are stats and you can use stats to discuss Bonds, but if you do, then how do you factor Mays ahead of him at all?

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by packs

Sincere question for people who pick Bonds; do you think Bonds was better than Willie Mays too? If the answer is yes, then wouldn't he have been the greatest living player this whole time?

My point is that stats are stats and you can use stats to discuss Bonds, but if you do, then how do you factor Mays ahead of him at all?

Yes, I rank the all time top 3 as Ruth, Bonds, Mays

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Sincere question for people who pick Bonds; do you think Bonds was better than Willie Mays too? If the answer is yes, then wouldn't he have been the greatest living player this whole time?

My point is that stats are stats and you can use stats to discuss Bonds, but if you do, then how do you factor Mays ahead of him at all?

Mays was not really the best when he passed. Barry was better but it looks better to have an old guy have the spot than someone many hate. I would have also had Hank Aaron ahead of Willie while he was alive. I do not think Willie was ever the best living player.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Eric72

It was me. I jokingly posted that Leon was my answer.

At the time, three of the top six threads on the main page were, "greatest living player" discussions. I found that a bit ridiculous. My poll answer matched my mood at the time.

As an aside, I'm surprised Sadaharu Oh isn't on the list. Are we only considering MLB players?

Josh Gibson...what too soon?

[aconte]

I went with Rickey Henderson.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Sincere question for people who pick Bonds; do you think Bonds was better than Willie Mays too? If the answer is yes, then wouldn't he have been the greatest living player this whole time?

My point is that stats are stats and you can use stats to discuss Bonds, but if you do, then how do you factor Mays ahead of him at all?

Yes, yes, N/A.

[oldjudge]

My vote is Aaron Judge. I think, for starters, that he is better than Ohtani.

[Hankphenom]

I know this doesn't make a lot of sense, but while you still can I think you have to give an edge to "The Greatest of the Oldest Surviving Generation" or some such, and to me, with Willie gone, that would be Koufax. As an aside, Koufax is the last surviving player talked about on Larry Ritter's "Glory of Their Times" tapes recorded in the early 1960s, with several of the old-timers being interviewed opining that he would have been great in their time, too.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

My vote is Aaron Judge. I think, for starters, that he is better than Ohtani.

Ohtani has way more to accomplish before he can begin to enter the conversation. I don't even want to hear his name in this discussion. We'll talk in 20 years. Trout has garnered a whopping single vote, and he's farther on his way than any other current player.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I know this doesn't make a lot of sense, but while you still can I think you have to give an edge to "The Greatest of the Oldest Surviving Generation" or some such, and to me, with Willie gone, that would be Koufax. As an aside, Koufax is the last surviving player talked about on Larry Ritter's "Glory of Their Times" tapes recorded in the early 1960s, with several of the old-timers being interviewed opining that he would have been great in their time, too.

I get that point. It does have an elder statesman feel to it.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by packs

Sincere question for people who pick Bonds; do you think Bonds was better than Willie Mays too? If the answer is yes, then wouldn't he have been the greatest living player this whole time?

My point is that stats are stats and you can use stats to discuss Bonds, but if you do, then how do you factor Mays ahead of him at all?

My top three all-time right now are Ruth, Williams, Mays in that order.

So to me, Mays has been the greatest since Williams passed away in 2002. In between Ruth passing away in 1948 and Williams doing enough to move up to the greatest (while still active), I think Cobb would have been the greatest for a time. I'd have to look at Williams over the years to see when I thought he passed Cobb, who died in 1961 after Williams retired.

I have never figured out my top list after the top three, but I'd like to sit down one day and just deep dive into it. Bonds could be fourth, but I think Walter Johnson has a good case for the spot.

[Al C.risafulli]

For the record I waffle back and forth and forth between Ruth, Mays and Bonds for greatest all-time, but usually wind up with Mays as #3 for the sole reason that Ruth and Bonds were SO much better than their peers when they played than Mays was. So I usually land Ruth/Bonds/Mays/Charleston/Aaron for position players, and if I try and add pitchers my brain explodes and I stop thinking about it.

-Al

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Josh Gibson...what too soon?

Sorry, I have no idea where you’re going with this. I wouldn’t have responded; however, you quoted me and then wrote this.

[Yoda]

I had to go with Griffey Jr. just because I liked the way he played.

[glchen]

I ranked them:

(1) Rose - Hit King
(2) Bonds - unfortunately tainted by PEDs
(3) Koufax

[bbcard1]

Well, it's complicated. There is normally a player who may or may not be the greatest but is chosen as the elder statesman. I think Koufax assumes that role.

Bonds is clearly the best but has more baggage than LaGuardia. Rose and Clemens have similar issues.

Schmidt and Bench are both generally seen as the greatest players ever at their position.

Henderson, Griffey Jr, Ripken Jr also could have their justifications.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by Yankees #1

Derek jeter

Not sure about the greatest living player, BUT I think he deserves to be in this top 20 voting list.

[quinnsryche]

Bonds??????? That cheatin' POS??? How can ANYONE vote for that clown? You know there is a reason he's not in the HOF, right? Pujols is the obvious choice. No question he is clean and did AMAZING things in his career. I get the Koufax contingent but he had 6 good years and 6 average/below average seasons. I discount almost every guy on that list as most weren't even the best player of their era except Bench.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

pujols is the obvious choice. No question he is clean

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[G1911]

Originally Posted by quinnsryche

Bonds??????? That cheatin' POS??? How can ANYONE vote for that clown? You know there is a reason he's not in the HOF, right? Pujols is the obvious choice. No question he is clean and did AMAZING things in his career. I get the Koufax contingent but he had 6 good years and 6 average/below average seasons. I discount almost every guy on that list as most weren't even the best player of their era except Bench.

Because of math.

[ClementeFanOh]

That’s “new” math, G1911. The Bonds folks are voting for an asterisk “greatest” player ever. Bonds’ most noteworthy achievements are all tarnished, every single one. It boggles my mind that people have become so jaded as to willingly select someone as their “living representative” as best ever (living) at a sport they enjoy, and which he knowingly tarnished. People can argue all they want for their pick or their favorite, but your guy Bonds will always be ***. This isn’t difficult, and yes I know you aren’t the only one pining for him. Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

That’s “new” math, G1911. The Bonds folks are voting for an asterisk “greatest” player ever. Bonds’ most noteworthy achievements are all tarnished, every single one. It boggles my mind that people have become so jaded as to willingly select someone as their “living representative” as best ever (living) at a sport they enjoy, and which he knowingly tarnished. People can argue all they want for their pick or their favorite, but your guy Bonds will always be ***. This isn’t difficult, and yes I know you aren’t the only one pining for him. Trent King

I'm sorry you people are really over the top angry, but the people picking Bonds are all just doing very basic math. He's far and away the mathematical answer, and thus is the prevailing choice by a large margin. You are free to design reasons to exclude him, but this really is not difficult to understand why people follow the math. Your emotions over steroids do not make actual math '"new" math'.

I wouldn't consider a 'no steroids' allowed choice to be unreasonable, but it is pretty unreasonable that we have several people in various stages of incredulity and/or meltdown over people picking the obvious mathematical choice.

Who is the best at X and who I like best are completely different things.

[jingram058]

I'll go with 1) Sandy Koufax, 2) Johnny Bench, 3) Ichiro Suzuki as the 3 best living players.

Barry Bonds would be on the greatest living player list, maybe "the", but he cheated his way to home run stats, so he's out of the discussion.

Pete Rose, same as Barry. More hits than anyone, but he gambled when the rules very clearly say "no betting", so he's out also.

It's all subjective, as these discussions always are. My choices may not be yours. It is what it is. I'm not changing
my mind; you're not changing yours.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I'll go with 1) Sandy Koufax, 2) Johnny Bench, 3) Ichiro Suzuki as the 3 best living players.

Barry Bonds would be on the greatest living player list, maybe "the", but he cheated his way to home run stats, so he's out of the discussion.

Pete Rose, same as Barry. More hits than anyone, but he gambled when the rules very clearly say "no betting", so he's out also.

It's all subjective, as these discussions always are. My choices may not be yours. It is what it is. I'm not changing
my mind; you're not changing yours.

I go Rickey. Bonds is clearly the best by any metric but I’m entitled to take steroids into account. Other than Bonds, none of the guys seem to really jump out. Wonder if some of that is because more of us saw these guys in real life and the mystique is a bit gone as compared to figures from the past.

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- a few short weeks ago, you engaged in a REAL meltdown over the way Memory Lane handled the theft of in- process auction cards. You posted 60+ messages and went hard against some of your best internet buddies while doing so (you then tried to pretend like it didn’t happen, but those pesky facts you love so dearly indicate otherwise). You were appalled at what you believe was Memory’s deceit, lack of professionalism, and ethically murky behavior. Remember that?? Now, remarkably, you ignore your own “rules”. Bonds’ behavior wasn’t ethically questionable, it was unethical-period. His deceit was well planned, repeated, and utterly deliberate- yet this type of deceit gets the G1911 seal of approval. Take a hard look at the word “hypocrisy” in your Webster’s. No need to get back with me on that. This isn’t the post of someone having a meltdown, by the way- check your Memory Lane manifesto for that Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

I see two problems excluding players from this sort of discussion for steroids. One, we don't really know who else may have used them (not everyone confessed or got caught). Two, players for whom many have a nostalgia bias used or likely used amphetamines, which while perhaps not as potent as steroids appear by most definitions to be PEDs. So this dividing line between juicing villains and clean heroes may not be that clear. It feels a bit wishful thinking and nostalgia driven to me.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by G1911

I'm sorry you people are really over the top angry, but the people picking Bonds are all just doing very basic math. He's far and away the mathematical answer, and thus is the prevailing choice by a large margin. You are free to design reasons to exclude him, but this really is not difficult to understand why people follow the math. Your emotions over steroids do not make actual math '"new" math'.

I wouldn't consider a 'no steroids' allowed choice to be unreasonable, but it is pretty unreasonable that we have several people in various stages of incredulity and/or meltdown over people picking the obvious mathematical choice.

Who is the best at X and who I like best are completely different things.

If someone feels that the actual math you are talking about is tainted by the use of PEDs, I understand why they would discount Bonds' numbers and not pick him as their choice for greatest living player. It's interesting that Roger Clemens has only received 2 votes when his actual math (as you call it) would seem to make him the greatest living pitcher. I'm not sure I understand why Clemens is being treated differently than Bonds - Clemens has received 2 votes out of 53 that were given to pitchers on the list - but clearly there is a difference in how they are being viewed.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I see two problems excluding players from this sort of discussion for steroids. One, we don't really know who else may have used them (not everyone confessed or got caught). Two, players for whom many have a nostalgia bias used or likely used amphetamines, which while perhaps not as potent as steroids appear by most definitions to be PEDs. So this dividing line between juicing villains and clean heroes may not be that clear. It feels a bit wishful thinking and nostalgia driven to me.

While amphetamines may have helped players be more alert and able to focus better, I don't think they had the same body-altering effects that PEDs had on many of the players that used them. You didn't see guys putting on massive amounts of muscles or their heads growing when using amphetamines.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

While amphetamines may have helped players be more alert and able to focus better, I don't think they had the same body-altering effects that PEDs had on many of the players that used them. You didn't see guys putting on massive amounts of muscles or their heads growing when using amphetamines.

It was just different help. With the amphetamines they can play like they have all the energy in the world. Without them they might have been seriously tired and sore and played a piss poor game. In a long season those games on amphetamines was a insanely great help to those players. If you think they are like drinking a cup of coffee I have a bridge to sell you. OK if the cup held 50 gallons of high test coffee and they downed it in a few minutes it might be comparable.

The speed freaks everyone loves are just as bad as any other PED user.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by jayshum

If someone feels that the actual math you are talking about is tainted by the use of PEDs, I understand why they would discount Bonds' numbers and not pick him as their choice for greatest living player. It's interesting that Roger Clemens has only received 2 votes when his actual math (as you call it) would seem to make him the greatest living pitcher. I'm not sure I understand why Clemens is being treated differently than Bonds - Clemens has received 2 votes out of 53 that were given to pitchers on the list - but clearly there is a difference in how they are being viewed.

Fair point. If we take steroid guys out Bonds is my 1 and Clemens is my 2. Not sure third place is all that close. Right or wrong I personally take the steroid guys out.

[ClementeFanOh]

Ah, I love revisionist history when that “history” is still on the present page. Don’t recall saying I (or anyone else) “love speed freaks”. Don’t recall mentioning “clean heroes” either. But hey, since facts don’t count, why bother? The original question was a pretty straightforward inquiry that has, as usual, gotten twisted. The guys who thought it was cool to root for the Empire in Star Wars, or Cobra Kai in Karate Kid, dive off the 10 meter board for a clown they know was dirty as hell. Then, they take offense when all kinds of people dare to suggest that an honorific title should go to someone who, I don’t know, possesses a shred of honor? Sound right so far? Awesome. Well done! Good Lord…. Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It was just different help. With the amphetamines they can play like they have all the energy in the world. Without them they might have been seriously tired and sore and played a piss poor game. In a long season those games on amphetamines was a insanely great help to those players. If you think they are like drinking a cup of coffee I have a bridge to sell you. OK if the cup held 50 gallons of high test coffee and they downed it in a few minutes it might be comparable.

The speed freaks everyone loves are just as bad as any other PED user.

Yet people romanticize Mays and Mantle etc. and vilify Bonds and ARod. Did one person, ever, question Mays' (rightful IMO) status as greatest living player on account of his taking amphetamines which seems likely?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- a few short weeks ago, you engaged in a REAL meltdown over the way Memory Lane handled the theft of in- process auction cards. You posted 60+ messages and went hard against some of your best internet buddies while doing so (you then tried to pretend like it didn’t happen, but those pesky facts you love so dearly indicate otherwise). You were appalled at what you believe was Memory’s deceit, lack of professionalism, and ethically murky behavior. Remember that?? Now, remarkably, you ignore your own “rules”. Bonds’ behavior wasn’t ethically questionable, it was unethical-period. His deceit was well planned, repeated, and utterly deliberate- yet this type of deceit gets the G1911 seal of approval. Take a hard look at the word “hypocrisy” in your Webster’s. No need to get back with me on that. This isn’t the post of someone having a meltdown, by the way- check your Memory Lane manifesto for that Trent King

Can you just try and make a reasonable argument that has anything even vaguely to do with the topic? Yes, I am very strongly against hosting fake fraudulent auctions and selling items you don't have, and never once have denied that or disagreeing with my "internet buddies" (I'm sure it will be news to me these people are my friends!). That has absolutely nothing to do with the obvious fact that Bonds is the greatest living player if we use the numbers. I understand a valid argument to cut out the steroid guys, but it is not very difficult to understand why people are picking Bonds. Just pretend to be an adult and make an actual point about the subject, you don't need to hijack every single thread into being about how much you hate me. Save some mental real estate for another topic, like, perhaps, the topic of the thread if you're going to post in it.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jayshum

If someone feels that the actual math you are talking about is tainted by the use of PEDs, I understand why they would discount Bonds' numbers and not pick him as their choice for greatest living player. It's interesting that Roger Clemens has only received 2 votes when his actual math (as you call it) would seem to make him the greatest living pitcher. I'm not sure I understand why Clemens is being treated differently than Bonds - Clemens has received 2 votes out of 53 that were given to pitchers on the list - but clearly there is a difference in how they are being viewed.

I don't think they are treated different, I think it's just that Bonds is greater among hitters than Roger is among pitchers. The gap between Clemens and Maddux or Johnson is significant, but it's not nearly as big as the gap between Bonds and Rickey Henderson or Pete Rose (who for some reason is okay but the steroids guys are not) or whoever one picks. As great as Clemens' career was, Bonds was even better and so he gets the vast majority of the votes from the people who are relying on provable numbers.