Poll - Greatest Living Player

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- a few short weeks ago, you engaged in a REAL meltdown over the way Memory Lane handled the theft of in- process auction cards. You posted 60+ messages and went hard against some of your best internet buddies while doing so (you then tried to pretend like it didn’t happen, but those pesky facts you love so dearly indicate otherwise). You were appalled at what you believe was Memory’s deceit, lack of professionalism, and ethically murky behavior. Remember that?? Now, remarkably, you ignore your own “rules”. Bonds’ behavior wasn’t ethically questionable, it was unethical-period. His deceit was well planned, repeated, and utterly deliberate- yet this type of deceit gets the G1911 seal of approval. Take a hard look at the word “hypocrisy” in your Webster’s. No need to get back with me on that. This isn’t the post of someone having a meltdown, by the way- check your Memory Lane manifesto for that Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

I see two problems excluding players from this sort of discussion for steroids. One, we don't really know who else may have used them (not everyone confessed or got caught). Two, players for whom many have a nostalgia bias used or likely used amphetamines, which while perhaps not as potent as steroids appear by most definitions to be PEDs. So this dividing line between juicing villains and clean heroes may not be that clear. It feels a bit wishful thinking and nostalgia driven to me.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I see two problems excluding players from this sort of discussion for steroids. One, we don't really know who else may have used them (not everyone confessed or got caught). Two, players for whom many have a nostalgia bias used or likely used amphetamines, which while perhaps not as potent as steroids appear by most definitions to be PEDs. So this dividing line between juicing villains and clean heroes may not be that clear. It feels a bit wishful thinking and nostalgia driven to me.

While amphetamines may have helped players be more alert and able to focus better, I don't think they had the same body-altering effects that PEDs had on many of the players that used them. You didn't see guys putting on massive amounts of muscles or their heads growing when using amphetamines.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

While amphetamines may have helped players be more alert and able to focus better, I don't think they had the same body-altering effects that PEDs had on many of the players that used them. You didn't see guys putting on massive amounts of muscles or their heads growing when using amphetamines.

It was just different help. With the amphetamines they can play like they have all the energy in the world. Without them they might have been seriously tired and sore and played a piss poor game. In a long season those games on amphetamines was a insanely great help to those players. If you think they are like drinking a cup of coffee I have a bridge to sell you. OK if the cup held 50 gallons of high test coffee and they downed it in a few minutes it might be comparable.

The speed freaks everyone loves are just as bad as any other PED user.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It was just different help. With the amphetamines they can play like they have all the energy in the world. Without them they might have been seriously tired and sore and played a piss poor game. In a long season those games on amphetamines was a insanely great help to those players. If you think they are like drinking a cup of coffee I have a bridge to sell you. OK if the cup held 50 gallons of high test coffee and they downed it in a few minutes it might be comparable.

The speed freaks everyone loves are just as bad as any other PED user.

Yet people romanticize Mays and Mantle etc. and vilify Bonds and ARod. Did one person, ever, question Mays' (rightful IMO) status as greatest living player on account of his taking amphetamines which seems likely?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yet people romanticize Mays and Mantle etc. and vilify Bonds and ARod. Did one person, ever, question Mays' (rightful IMO) status as greatest living player on account of his taking amphetamines which seems likely?

There's a lot less known about the extent of usage of amphetamines than there is about PEDs. No one knows for sure who was using either or how much, but the big difference seems to be that during the PED era, more players were putting up numbers that had never been seen before for home runs and slugging. There have been 48 times a player hit 50 or more home runs. 23 of those were between 1995 and 2007 so almost half in a 13 year period. Sure there were other factors (ball probably juiced compared to other years, smaller fields, expansion so more pitchers), but the added strength provided by PEDs seemed to have a greater impact on offense than the added alertness that amphetamines was providing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

There's a lot less known about the extent of usage of amphetamines than there is about PEDs. No one knows for sure who was using either or how much, but the big difference seems to be that during the PED era, more players were putting up numbers that had never been seen before for home runs and slugging. There have been 48 times a player hit 50 or more home runs. 23 of those were between 1995 and 2007 so almost half in a 13 year period. Sure there were other factors (ball probably juiced compared to other years, smaller fields, expansion so more pitchers), but the added strength provided by PEDs seemed to have a greater impact on offense than the added alertness that amphetamines was providing.

Yeah I wonder if anyone has done a rigorous study of this controlling for possible confounding variables.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- a few short weeks ago, you engaged in a REAL meltdown over the way Memory Lane handled the theft of in- process auction cards. You posted 60+ messages and went hard against some of your best internet buddies while doing so (you then tried to pretend like it didn’t happen, but those pesky facts you love so dearly indicate otherwise). You were appalled at what you believe was Memory’s deceit, lack of professionalism, and ethically murky behavior. Remember that?? Now, remarkably, you ignore your own “rules”. Bonds’ behavior wasn’t ethically questionable, it was unethical-period. His deceit was well planned, repeated, and utterly deliberate- yet this type of deceit gets the G1911 seal of approval. Take a hard look at the word “hypocrisy” in your Webster’s. No need to get back with me on that. This isn’t the post of someone having a meltdown, by the way- check your Memory Lane manifesto for that Trent King

Can you just try and make a reasonable argument that has anything even vaguely to do with the topic? Yes, I am very strongly against hosting fake fraudulent auctions and selling items you don't have, and never once have denied that or disagreeing with my "internet buddies" (I'm sure it will be news to me these people are my friends!). That has absolutely nothing to do with the obvious fact that Bonds is the greatest living player if we use the numbers. I understand a valid argument to cut out the steroid guys, but it is not very difficult to understand why people are picking Bonds. Just pretend to be an adult and make an actual point about the subject, you don't need to hijack every single thread into being about how much you hate me. Save some mental real estate for another topic, like, perhaps, the topic of the thread if you're going to post in it.