Condition Sensitive

[LincolnVT]

So many cards have seen reasonable wear and tear over the years. What pre-war issues seem to be the most condition sensitive…the 1910 E103 Williams Caramel set comes to mind as they are paper thin. Let’s see some fragile / condition sensitive cards.

Ethan

[jimq16415]

These aren't graded that much but out of 94 graded at PSA one is graded above a 4. Mine would certainly not be!

[x2drich2000]

T222 are super tough in high grade - super thin, photographic stock. They are often found creased, missing pieces, water damage, etc. E105 and T216 VE also come to mind

[G1911]

Though the graders love to just completely ignore it, the huge majority of Old Judge’s have faded and degraded with time and exposure. True for many other photographic 19th century cards. The gold border on T205’s has tarnished with time and a tiny amount still retain the original aesthetic when issued.

Even those in high grade slabs are usually degraded cards that do not look like they did when they were issued. It’s very rare to find one that does.

[Yoda]

1914 Cracker Jacks are a bit tender.

[Leon]

Many might not think so, but this is actually a very condition sensitive card. There is one 7, none higher, and very few at 5 and above. And it should be pointed out, generally, the E90-1s are a condition sensitive set anyway.

[AMPduppp]

Seconding T222. Of the nearly 500 total graded by PSA, 356 are graded 2 or lower (71.4%). For comparison, for T206 61,538 of 209,062 were a 2 or lower (29.4%)

[raulus]

I want to join in the fun, but don't really collect much pre-war.

So please don't hate me for sharing a postwar issue, but 1953-1954 Briggs Meats seems like it should qualify as condition sensitive, aside from the part about not qualifying by definition...

Of 239 cards ever graded by PSA, only 9 have ever graded above PSA 2, and only 8 at PSA 2 or 2.5...

Here's the highest graded piece in the entire set.

[tiger8mush]

Louisiana T-cards are very thin and many surviving examples are low condition ... such as T213, T215 and T216

[Rhotchkiss]

Great thread Ethan.

I cant wait till Brian posts -- he has some of the all-time best beaters

Here are two major beaters in my collection. However, the Tango eggs is a 1 of 1 and the Blue Crofts is a wicked rare (that's a technical term), so beggars cant be choosers

[ullmandds]

Most t216 ve’s are in horrible condition. Thx to steve for this gem.

[G1911]

The Tango Cobb is one of my favorite pre-war cards.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Leon

Many might not think so, but this is actually a very condition sensitive card. There is one 7, none higher, and very few at 5 and above. And it should be pointed out, generally, the E90-1s are a condition sensitive set anyway.

Leon, nice E90-1 Cy Young. E90-1 cards can be a pain in a neck to track down in better condition, but when you do find them, you tack them up for all to enjoy.

Brian (thanks again Paul S., wherever you are)

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Most t216 ve’s are in horrible condition. Thx to steve for this gem.

I agree, because the cards are so darn thin. Keep in mind, however, that to a low condition collector like me, most cards are prone to severe damage.

Another set that comes to mind that is rarely seen above poor condition is the 1923 Lections set. This Hornsby would almost be considered in top condition for the issue (card not mine):

[GeoPoto]

These are pretty delicate.

https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1666726366
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1666726371
https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1666726376

[CobbSpikedMe]

I would think T210 would make this list with the red borders no?


(card no longer mine)



.

[ullmandds]

any issues that are actual photos...t200, quaker ruth premiums come to mind.

[Scocs]

Any and all Cuban/Negro League baseball cards.

Whether it’s the 1909-1910 Cabanas and Punch cards….

The 1920s Aguiitas, Billiken, Nacionales, and Tomas Gutierrez….

The 1940s Almanaque, Caramelo Deportivo, El Indio, Toleteros, Victoria….

In some ways, it makes collecting them more enjoyable because you don’t have the luxury of saying to yourself, “hey, I don’t love this one; I’ll just grab another one on eBay, my local card show, or from the next auction house.”

You always look for the best but you can sleep soundly at night.

I would assume you’d feel the same way if you devoted yourself to collecting T214 Victory cards!

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Great thread Ethan.

I cant wait till Brian posts -- he has some of the all-time best beaters

Here are two major beaters in my collection. However, the Tango eggs is a 1 of 1 and the Blue Crofts is a wicked rare (that's a technical term), so beggars cant be choosers

My type of cards Ryan. And thanks Ryan...it is nice to be known for something, and I have enjoyed collecting in my little counter-card culture cubbyhole. Here are some of my cards from what I consider condition sensitive sets that have been senselessly desensitized to the serious damage they have suffered.

Shown below: 1914 Cracker Jack, T213 Coupon, Crescent Ice Cream, E125 American Caramel, T216 Kotton, George C. Miller, Indianapolis Brewing, and Zeenut (almost all years, but especially from the 1920's through the early 1930's).

Brian

[CobbSpikedMe]

Since Zeenuts have come up a few times, why are there so many that are just beat to hell? Sometimes with creases that indicate they were folded up into tiny squares and unfolded several times even.


Cards not mine, just examples from the wild.



.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Scocs

Any and all Cuban/Negro League baseball cards.

Whether it’s the 1909-1910 Cabanas and Punch cards….

The 1920s Aguiitas, Billiken, Nacionales, and Tomas Gutierrez….

The 1940s Almanaque, Caramelo Deportivo, El Indio, Toleteros, Victoria….

In some ways, it makes collecting them more enjoyable because you don’t have the luxury of saying to yourself, “hey, I don’t love this one; I’ll just grab another one on eBay, my local card show, or from the next auction house.”

You always look for the best but you can sleep soundly at night.

I would assume you’d feel the same way if you devoted yourself to collecting T214 Victory cards!

Any excuse to post a Cabanas.
_

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Since Zeenuts have come up a few times, why are there so many that are just beat to hell? Sometimes with creases that indicate they were folded up into tiny squares and unfolded several times even.

Cards not mine, just examples from the wild.

Kids would play a 'gambling' game with them called 'shooting', I believe similar to pitching pennies. As the result, kids would clip corners, roll them up, put wax on them to gain a supposed advantage. I guess a West Coast kinda thing.

Brian

[brianp-beme]

Here are some backs of Zeenut cards that allude to this shooting game. The bottom right card says "Bad luck don't use this one for a (tore?) as it will bounce back. And you will lose"

Brian

[G1911]

E105 Mello Mint - because a lot of them, as I understand it, were folded in the package and came out of the box creased to begin with.

[jimq16415]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Kids would play a 'gambling' game with them called 'shooting', I believe similar to pitching pennies. As the result, kids would clip corners, roll them up, put wax on them to gain a supposed advantage. I guess a West Coast kinda thing.

Brian

Thanks! So much knowledge here, I never would have thought of that. I just knew it took me a long time to find a Nevers in any condition!

[CobbSpikedMe]

Yeah, thanks Brian. Never knew about the Shooter game. Now I know, and knowing is half the battle.



.

Not to mention the 1945-1946 Caramelo Deportivo Cuban League thin paper

[brianp-beme]

No problem Andy and Jim. I love that Zeenut card that I quoted...it is almost like a historical document on Zeenut Shooting.

Brian

[LincolnVT]

These 1914 CJs are transparent when held to the light.

[scooter729]

Here are 8 of the 10 cards from my Lections set - 'condition sensitive' doesn't even begin to describe how bad these cards usually are!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Here are 8 of the 10 cards from my Lections set - 'condition sensitive' doesn't even begin to describe how bad these cards usually are!

Now THIS is my kind of condition!

[LincolnVT]

What were the holes in the Lections for? We’re they punch cards for some item?

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by LincolnVT

What were the holes in the Lections for? We’re they punch cards for some item?

The exact purpose isn't 100% known for sure, but theories revolve around them being distributed - possibly to kids - at an election event in NY. The hole punches could've been for some sort of redemption, amusement ride, etc.

Attached here are a few election-related cards which were found as part of the same lot from which my set was found, which is more evidence that these originated from an election event.

And my Ruth card from the set....

[ValKehl]

Roughly 20 years ago, I was able to nearly complete the 18-card 1925 Holland Creameries set, missing only the near-impossible SP Peckinpaugh card. Here are 16 of the 17 cards I had - my WaJo card is a bit nicer than any of these, so I didn't include its pic. Over the years, I've been able to upgrade 5 of these cards, and I'm always looking for more upgrades.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Great thread Ethan.

I cant wait till Brian posts -- he has some of the all-time best beaters

Here are two major beaters in my collection. However, the Tango eggs is a 1 of 1 and the Blue Crofts is a wicked rare (that's a technical term), so beggars cant be choosers

Scott, what is the story behind the 1 of 1 Cobb Tango? Was it a test card or a proof? The red printing shown doesn't exist, I think, on any other Tango. Your acquisition of the card must be an interesting take.

[jimq16415]

These are usually in bad shape, or at least the ones I can afford are bad. This one is bad but looks way worse because of the PSA baggie.

[t206kid]

1914 Cracker Jacks. The war paper + grading makes zero sense.

[Fred]

Cards with the thinnest stock: T200, T222, Cracker Jacks

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by raulus

I want to join in the fun, but don't really collect much pre-war.

So please don't hate me for sharing a postwar issue, but 1953-1954 Briggs Meats seems like it should qualify as condition sensitive, aside from the part about not qualifying by definition...

Of 239 cards ever graded by PSA, only 9 have ever graded above PSA 2, and only 8 at PSA 2 or 2.5...

Here's the highest graded piece in the entire set.

Well chosen, Nicolo. What compounds the problems for the 53/54 Briggs, the 54/55 Esskay, the 53 - 55 Hunter's, the 1962 JELL-O, and I'm certain all the cereal box cards et al is the fact that when they were issued, they were simple, cheap boy's / girl's trading cards that were "free" with a purchase of a food product. The major caveat was that the consumer had to cut the card off the product package. Sometimes you were given instructions; otherwise, you must figure it out for yourself. The crux of the caveat of the consumer cutting the card off the package was the likelihood it was a youngster. A kid's fine motor skills take years to mature, and what looked like a good cut to him might be "a cut below" to a PSA / SGC grader 50-75 years later.

Ponder it through, there was no warning to be extra careful how you cleaned the card, and especially how you cut the card off the product package. No company offering their "free trading cards" was going to do that, 'cause back in the day they were worthless, cheap toys for kids to collect. You simply begged your mother to buy that brand at the grocer.

However, one generation later, starting about 1969, the adult baseball card hobby slowly began to accelerate. The adult collectors all had their bubblegum cards complete. What they didn't have were most of the scarce to downright rare postwar regional / food issues. Many of them were gorgeous, and became highly desirable to the advanced collectors. You couldn't get these at Wholesale Cards Co., or The Trading Card Co., or Card Collectors Company. The latter had the tough to beastly Topps test issues, because it was operated by Woody Gelman and Richard Gelman, who both worked at Topps. The Topps test issues were the brainchild of Woody Gelman, so he naturally had an "in" to produce and procure them.

Not the immediate post-war regional / food. They were beautiful; however, they were frequently deadly scarce, and furthermore dreadfully rare. I like the late Mr. Mint Alan Rosen's separate definition of the two adjectives:

SCARCITY REFERS TO THE THE NUMBER OF CARDS PRINTED OF THE ISSUE, TYPICALLY VERY SMALL

RARITY REFERS TO HOW MANY OF THE VERY SMALL QUANTITY SURVIVED.

Let me give an example of both concepts:

1954 Red Heart Dog Food

One of the reasons why an early owner of Wholesale Cards Co. wanted to buy the company was that the owner had gotten a large quantity of the promotion leftover '54 Red Heart Dog Food Cards. As well as '53 - '55 Johnston Cookie Braves, Red Man Tobacco cards, 1961 Minnesota Twins hot dog regional, 1959 or 60 Bacon company Chicago Cardinals football team plastic-covered cards. Now, when the owner of Wholesale Cards got his large quantity of Red Hearts, he didn't get all of them. Oh no. The parent company, John Morrell, kept a huge portion of the leftovers for anyone who wrote to the company for a set of their '54 cards. They did this until the early 1970s, I read. That's why there's so many nice condition Red Hearts. Maybe not a lot of PSA 10s; that's ALWAYS a rare bird. At this point, a PSA 9 is fairly rare.

Now, as for the early post-war meat regionals, forget it. Extremely few UNUSED leftover cards and boxes made it into the hobby. There were three small finds of the dreadfully condition-sensitive and overall rare 53-55 Stahl-Meyer Franks baseball cards. In the mid-70s, a whopping 53 of the 1953 Whitey Lockman were sold to Rob Lifson for a hefty price. The family's dad had worked at Milprint, and scooped up a stack of the cards one day. They were all of Lockman. They were all essentially gem mint. I know, PSA has never graded a mint Lockman. Why? I don't know, but even in the 70s, it took a lot of careful effort to preserve a fragile card in eventual graded mint condition.

The second find occurred in the late 70s when a man came to a show who had worked at the famed Milprint Printing Co. in Wisconsin that produced all the tough meat issues. He wanted cash to buy Miller Brewing Co. stock. So, a noteworthy collector-dealer (read NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN; the great story is in there) handed over a chunk of cash for brand new, never in the package meat regional cards and boxes, including your mentioned 1953-54 Briggs Meats.

THAT is how that gorgeous Carl Erskine came to survive perfectly---and after a guessing game on how to cut it in a way PSA's upward turned nose and arrogant eyes would agree, it was rewarded with a Near Mint 7.

7? Why not Gem Mint 10? That little baby IS the proverbial needle in a haystack.

The third Stahl-Meyer Franks find occurred in the mid-1980s. It involved a very few uncut sheets. I read about it in SCD, which ran a tiny blurb about it. Those sheets were cut into cards, and sold right away. Stahl-Meyers are so hard to find that frustrated collectors bought 'em right up. That put the kaibosh on their future graded card value, but then, they were machine-cut with separating tabs, and there'd be no way to cut them as they were originally.

The "condition sensitivity" of the previously mentioned meat regionals presented itself immediately when they were packaged with or inside meat products. Being marinated in hot dog juice and goo did not help preserve the condition of the "free prize" cards. Take the opportunity to view Dave Berg's recent YOUTUBE video on Meat Regionals. It is well done and in 2 parts. His moniker is "bluejacket66".


To throw in some PRE-WAR crumbs, what happened to the issued cards and leftovers of such tantalizing pre-war regionals as 1914 Baltimore News and 1910 Washington Times can only be drawn from intelligent conjecture, a hated word for those who want only the FACTS.

Facts?

They're both over 100 years old. You think you're gonna find facts? Really? How naive and stupid can you get? Baseball cards in tobacco packs and candy packs were saved. Whatever came from a newspaper 99.9% of the time went to the purchasing adults, who threw away "such nonsense". There were things like SERIOUS paper drives in World War I. A few wound up in scrapbooks. The best Baltimore News Ruth I think came from a REA auction consigned by a family whose long-deceased relative had glued it in a scrapbook.

I've been verbose for too many paragraphs already. Maybe something I've said will be enlightening. Have a good evening.

---- Brian Powell

[Leon]

As mentioned, VE's are super tough in anything but poor condition..