New BODA thread; PWCC selling previously outed cards now "reviewed by PSA"

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1457205

Hmmmm. I thought the PWCC cards that were outed were, to the extent in PWCC's possession or returned to them, being turned over to the FBI. But it now appears some are being sent in to PSA who is blessing them, and being sold again from the Vault? Otherwise, presented without comment.

Judge for yourself.

[Jcosta19]

I can't tell from the threads. Is there a way to tell that PSA is has actually reviewed them other than the listing saying so?



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

I can't tell from the threads. Is there a way to tell that PSA is has actually reviewed them other than the listing saying so?



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I think he's being truthful about that. Not that he has always been truthful, far from it.

[Johnny630]

My guess is the The US Prosecutors Office just Doesn't believe there is enough here to convict. IDK...........

[perezfan]

What a farce that there are a grand total of 3 replies to this alarming and highly disturbing topic.

The seized altered cards are going back into circulation instead of straight to the FBI (as we were assured). I guess nobody here cares about lying, fraud and corruption. What's a little multi-million dollar crime, when there are registries to complete and profits to be had?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by perezfan

What a farce that there are a grand total of 3 replies to this alarming and highly disturbing topic.

The seized altered cards are going back into circulation instead of straight to the FBI (as we were assured). I guess nobody here cares about lying, fraud and corruption. What's a little multi-million dollar crime, when there are registries to complete and profits to be had?

It's depressing but when collectors seemingly don't care if they buy crap graded cards then who can fault the FBI if they have the same attitude? (not saying they do but who could fault them?)

.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

What a farce that there are a grand total of 3 replies to this alarming and highly disturbing topic.

The seized altered cards are going back into circulation instead of straight to the FBI (as we were assured). I guess nobody here cares about lying, fraud and corruption. What's a little multi-million dollar crime, when there are registries to complete and profits to be had?

Why would people that still buy from and sell through him complain? Why would people that alter cards complain about someone that does?

Then add many that have complained about him in the past have gotten attacked and called names for doing it. I honestly don't even see the point of these type of threads anymore. Either buy the fake altered crap or get out of the hobby and let those that don't care have it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

What a farce that there are a grand total of 3 replies to this alarming and highly disturbing topic.

The seized altered cards are going back into circulation instead of straight to the FBI (as we were assured). I guess nobody here cares about lying, fraud and corruption. What's a little multi-million dollar crime, when there are registries to complete and profits to be had?

I should have posted a thread about what's your favorite T206 background color, sorry.

BTW who assured us and when these cards were being taken out of circulation, I couldn't find it in a quick search, does anyone recall?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I should have posted a thread about what's your favorite T206 background color, sorry.

RED!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7NCv1FkCpA

EDIT: To your other question I believe it was the guy who kicked me off his forum.

[2dueces]

Whatever happened to the investigation into all the
Fake T206 autographed cards. It’s been what, 3 years?
If that wasn’t blatant enough for prosecution or at least
Some news this will soon fade just as that so called investigation did.

[Rhotchkiss]

I am not one to defend PWCC, but when they send someone else’s card back to PSA, who blesses their own earlier negligence and then sends the card back to PWCC, what is PWCC to do? They should not have to buy and destroy the card. It belongs to someone else. And, if that someone else choses to keep it in, and sell the card from, the vault, all PWCC can do is disclose the fact that PSA re-reviewed and re-approved the card and the grade. Is the FBI going to confiscate the card bc BODA says it’s altered but PSA says it’s not? No... unless PSA is the subject of the investigation, which apparently it is not.

PSA is the bad guy here. They are the “experts” who can’t do their job right the first time, and then double down on their mistakes by approving the mistake; hell, the “experts” at PSA can’t tell a clear 1914 CJ reprint, with perforated borders, from the real McCoy. In this case, PSA is the problem, not PWCC. PSA is a dirty shop, plain and simple. And that won’t change. “Never get Cheated”

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Johnny630]

PSA's argument we are rendering an opinion...that's it.

How can any Criminality Be Attached to an Opinion?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not one to defend PWCC, but when they send someone else’s card back to PSA, who blesses their own earlier negligence and then sends the card back to PWCC, what is PWCC to do? They should not have to buy and destroy the card. It belongs to someone else. And, if that someone else choses to keep it in, and sell the card from, the vault, all PWCC can do is disclose the fact that PSA re-reviewed and re-approved the card and the grade. Is the FBI going to confiscate the card bc BODA says it’s altered but PSA says it’s not? No... unless PSA is the subject of the investigation, which apparently it is not.

PSA is the bad guy here. They are the “experts” who can’t do their job right the first time, and then double down on their mistakes by approving the mistake; hell, the “experts” at PSA can’t tell a clear 1914 CJ reprint, with perforated borders, from the real McCoy. In this case, PSA is the problem, not PWCC. PSA is a dirty shop, plain and simple. And that won’t change. “Never get Cheated”

Ryan Hotchkiss

To the bold part only. I noticed at first those that cared called out the people altering and selling the cards. Then when some of the hobby icons got called out for being the bad guys it suddenly became PSAs fault.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Suppose PWCC knew the card was from Gary and that he had or likely had altered it (hypothetically of course)? Change your analysis, Ryan?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA's argument we are rendering an opinion...that's it.

How can any Criminality Be Attached to an Opinion?

Suppose (hypothetically of course) it's not a good faith opinion?

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose (hypothetically of course) it's not a good faith opinion?

Or a corruptly influenced opinion?

Also, criminal investigations, especially bank and wire fraud, take several years to bring to the US attorney for charging.
If PWCC is cooperating, it is possible they worked out a deal where they flip, pay a restitution fee, get to keep their livelihood and continue to assist the government in uncovering fraud.
That would be one heck of a deal. However, without knowing specifics, or seeing any affidavits attached to search warrants, all we can do is speculate.
On the other hand, it is possible that charges are not forthcoming.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

Or a corruptly influenced opinion?

Also, criminal investigations, especially bank and wire fraud, take several years to bring to the US attorney for charging.
If PWCC is cooperating, it is possible they worked out a deal where they flip, pay a restitution fee, get to keep their livelihood and continue to assist the government in uncovering fraud.
That would be one heck of a deal. However, without knowing specifics, or seeing any affidavits attached to search warrants, all we can do is speculate.
On the other hand, it is possible that charges are not forthcoming.

I think it's public knowledge they are cooperating.

[vintagewhitesox]

I need to get online more then.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose PWCC knew the card was from Gary and that he had or likely had altered it (hypothetically of course)? Change your analysis, Ryan?

Its not PWCC's card. I suppose they can refuse to sell it, but its not their property to dispose of. In the case where PWCC knows its from Gary and/or likely has been altered, then can (1) not allow the owner to use PWCC to sell it, (2) get a re-evaluation and disclose, or (3) just list/sell it, not ask for a re-evaluation and not disclose their suspicions. But it is not their property to dispose of.

I would hope PWCC did #1, like Brian of Mile High just did with the Tiger Woods. But if PWCC does #2, then I cannot fault them (the link does not go to listing so I do not know what kind of disclosure was made); assuming the disclosure is real and informative, they are selling their client's property and being honest about what is being sold.

Look, I am not a defender of PWCC at all. But if someone comes to an AH with a PSA numerically graded card, and the AH has reason to believe that PSA is wrong and the card is likely altered, I think making a full and honest disclosure, while not ideal, is acceptable.

Ben, with regards to your post, I dont think you are implying anything of me, but to be clear, I have never altered a card in my life (I did cut 1986 Topps cards off the bottom of the boxes!).

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think it's been taken down which is why you can't find it.

As far as the options you mention, the problem with selling it even with disclosure is that it keeps the card in circulation and the next guy probably sells it with no disclosure. Of course that can happen too if you refuse to sell it give it back to the consignor and he shops it elsewhere.

I guess the best one can do is resolve not to be part of the problem, which is certainly better than cooperating in some dog and pony re-review of a clearly bad card.

PS I understand PWCC can't hand over someone else's card, I did not mean to suggest they should, I was just struck by the apparent inconsistency between doing that on cards they had bought back and going this route on other outed cards.

[egri]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Whatever happened to the investigation into all the
Fake T206 autographed cards. It’s been what, 3 years?
If that wasn’t blatant enough for prosecution or at least
Some news this will soon fade just as that so called investigation did.

I haven't heard anything from that in a while. I know the member who started it got tossed because he wouldn't verify his identity, but as far as I can tell the only change has been SGC exiting the autograph authentication business.

[frankrizzo29]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not one to defend PWCC, but when they send someone else’s card back to PSA, who blesses their own earlier negligence and then sends the card back to PWCC, what is PWCC to do? They should not have to buy and destroy the card. It belongs to someone else. And, if that someone else choses to keep it in, and sell the card from, the vault, all PWCC can do is disclose the fact that PSA re-reviewed and re-approved the card and the grade. Is the FBI going to confiscate the card bc BODA says it’s altered but PSA says it’s not? No... unless PSA is the subject of the investigation, which apparently it is not.

PSA is the bad guy here. They are the “experts” who can’t do their job right the first time, and then double down on their mistakes by approving the mistake; hell, the “experts” at PSA can’t tell a clear 1914 CJ reprint, with perforated borders, from the real McCoy. In this case, PSA is the problem, not PWCC. PSA is a dirty shop, plain and simple. And that won’t change. “Never get Cheated”

Ryan Hotchkiss

+1000

This hobby is too dependent on TPG's to slab cards, which in turn converts pieces of cardboard into a commodity that can be easily bought and sold. This will be a never ending debate until there is a proven TPG that has never graded an altered card and that the hobby/collectors trust.

[Frank A]

Instead of taking a stand, people just keep sending cards to PSA. How dumb can you get?

[Oscar_Stanage]

Originally Posted by Frank A

Instead of taking a stand, people just keep sending cards to PSA. How dumb can you get?

its simple, PWCC churns out PSA cards in auction at a 35% premium to the last sale.. then after the market has moved, the same cards trickle out from the vault even higher- I wonder who owns these?

then people come on net54 and talk about the PSA premium. its a joke.

Exactly why I don't have even one graded card in my collection and have never sent a card to be graded, ever. These guys have been doing this since the 90's. Nothing new and people still send their cards to them. It's all about the Benjamins for many people. I enjoy cards for what they are not what they are worth and it makes the hobby so much more enjoyable. Nuff said.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Wimberleycardcollector

Exactly why I don't have even one graded card in my collection and have never sent a card to be graded, ever. These guys have been doing this since the 90's. Nothing new and people still send their cards to them. It's all about the Benjamins for many people. I enjoy cards for what they are not what they are worth and it makes the hobby so much more enjoyable. Nuff said.

Best post in the thread.

It took me a long long time to figure that out but I enjoy it sooooo much more now.

[Johnny630]

Grading Serves One Purpose for me and One Purpose Only....It allows me to sell certain cards at a much higher price then if I kept them raw to sell.

Love it, Hate it.......Either Way I Accept it.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Grading Serves One Purpose for me and One Purpose Only....It allows me to sell certain cards at a much higher price then if I kept them raw to sell.

Love it, Hate it.......Either Way I Accept it.

+1

[ullmandds]

and there you have it...PSA has suspended most levels of service til Summer!

[tlhss]

Originally Posted by Wimberleycardcollector

Exactly why I don't have even one graded card in my collection and have never sent a card to be graded, ever. These guys have been doing this since the 90's. Nothing new and people still send their cards to them. It's all about the Benjamins for many people. I enjoy cards for what they are not what they are worth and it makes the hobby so much more enjoyable. Nuff said.

This how I collect as well. I do read all the posts on the issues with the TPGs. However, as long as people continue to pay for their services, they have no motivation to change. At times, it seems like the slab and flip are more important than the card.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Grading Serves One Purpose for me and One Purpose Only....It allows me to sell certain cards at a much higher price then if I kept them raw to sell.

Love it, Hate it.......Either Way I Accept it.

I don't love it, I do hate it, and I do not and will not accept it. I have cards I like, not what someone else likes. I have no graded cards. All the graded cards I have obtained (T206, Goudey, Play Ball, Delong, Bowman, Topps) I have cracked. I guaran-dang-tee I could sell them raw for BIG money if I so desired. I have a nice big house with a pool in Florida, 2 nice cars, and a Navy officer pension for the rest of my life. I am not into the card hobby to make money off of them. I just like the cards. So go ahead and analyze your PSA, SGC or OCD graded cards like stockbrokers. Nope, not fun and not my cup of tea. If the hobby was like this when I was a kid, I would have found another hobby

[LOUCARDFAN]

PSA - Professional Sports Authenticator

Grading is an opinion. Authenticating (it's in their name) a card isn't and should NEVER be an opinion.

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA's argument we are rendering an opinion...that's it.

How can any Criminality Be Attached to an Opinion?

[forceplay sport]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

and there you have it...PSA has suspended most levels of service til Summer!

but will absolutely take in any type of Uncle Jimmy Collection or high profile collection and move it right to the front of the line for grading .........

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

They get moved to the front of the line because they pay more, it's not a conspiracy. I just last week had a 1951 Bowman Mantle do the round trip in a week.

[trambo]

FWIW- The CJ card posted earlier in the thread is not in the PSA database so if it was a bad card, it's no longer part of the PSA orbit under that cert number. Sure, it could've been a miss by PSA for whatever reason or it could be someone who doctored a photo because they have an axe to grind w/PSA. Regardless, it isn't a valid cert # so whatever the issue, it appears to be rectified there.

Not a PSA apologist by any stretch and it grinds my gears when I see any sort of impropriety (alleged or real). The good of this is at least in one case, nothing to see here.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by trambo

FWIW- The CJ card posted earlier in the thread is not in the PSA database so if it was a bad card, it's no longer part of the PSA orbit under that cert number. Sure, it could've been a miss by PSA for whatever reason or it could be someone who doctored a photo because they have an axe to grind w/PSA. Regardless, it isn't a valid cert # so whatever the issue, it appears to be rectified there.

Not a PSA apologist by any stretch and it grinds my gears when I see any sort of impropriety (alleged or real). The good of this is at least in one case, nothing to see here.

Go back and read the thread devoted to that card. It's not a doctored photo and was 100% real. PSA invalidated the card to avoid any further extreme embarrassment.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by trambo

FWIW- The CJ card posted earlier in the thread is not in the PSA database so if it was a bad card, it's no longer part of the PSA orbit under that cert number. Sure, it could've been a miss by PSA for whatever reason or it could be someone who doctored a photo because they have an axe to grind w/PSA. Regardless, it isn't a valid cert # so whatever the issue, it appears to be rectified there.

Not a PSA apologist by any stretch and it grinds my gears when I see any sort of impropriety (alleged or real). The good of this is at least in one case, nothing to see here.

So, by removing the cert # from their public system, they have rectified the issue?

Sure, ok.

That's cool, maybe they should remove cert #00000001 from their system as well, to rectify that issue.

And just to be clear, you don't sound at all like an opinion seller apologist to me.

Doug "I may be a tad bit sarcastic" Goodman

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by trambo

FWIW

IAWM






For those of you not as schooled in the new-fangled abbreviation-centric vernacular of the kidz these days, Troy said "for what it's worth" and my response was "it ain't worth much".

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

IAWM






For those of you not as schooled in the new-fangled abbreviation-centric vernacular of the kidz these days, Troy said "for what it's worth" and my response was "it ain't worth much".

I appreciate the translation.

[trambo]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Go back and read the thread devoted to that card. It's not a doctored photo and was 100% real. PSA invalidated the card to avoid any further extreme embarrassment.

Thanks. I don't spend a ton of time on that website so I'll take your word that it was a card they legitimately graded. Still leaves the other option as it wasn't one thing I said as a possibility but two.

So why does anyone think they picked that one card to invalidate to avoid extreme embarrassment versus any other card? Is it possible they realized they made a mistake and just corrected it? Does anyone know if the card is still in the slab?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by trambo

Thanks. I don't spend a ton of time on that website so I'll take your word that it was a card they legitimately graded. Still leaves the other option as it wasn't one thing I said as a possibility but two.

So why does anyone think they picked that one card to invalidate to avoid extreme embarrassment versus any other card? Is it possible they realized they made a mistake and just corrected it? Does anyone know if the card is still in the slab?

The search function is your friend.https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...t=cracker+jack

[Rhotchkiss]

Troy, the CJ I posted (and will continue to post) is a major f-ck up by PSA. The card is a clear reprint, obvious on many levels. Not only did they grade it, they authenticated it! They gave a numeric grade to a obvious reprint. As someone said elsewhere, perhaps the grade is an “opinion” but the authentication part is not. PSA quickly took action and took this card out of circulation. They rectified nothing. Instead, they tried to cover their tracks. Luckily we have pictures.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

What a farce that there are a grand total of 3 replies to this alarming and highly disturbing topic.

The seized altered cards are going back into circulation instead of straight to the FBI (as we were assured). I guess nobody here cares about lying, fraud and corruption. What's a little multi-million dollar crime, when there are registries to complete and profits to be had?

I got laughed at by dopey mcdope dopes when I stated it was a billion dollar fraud 2 years ago. so there is no need for me to comment about the day to day activities about 1 of the biggest con artists there ever was/is. How you like your billion dollar fraud now? Are we there yet? NEWSFLASH: It's easily a BILLION. Put that in your shut down PSA hat and smoke it.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by jingram058

I don't love it, I do hate it, and I do not and will not accept it. I have cards I like, not what someone else likes. I have no graded cards. All the graded cards I have obtained (T206, Goudey, Play Ball, Delong, Bowman, Topps) I have cracked. I guaran-dang-tee I could sell them raw for BIG money if I so desired. I have a nice big house with a pool in Florida, 2 nice cars, and a Navy officer pension for the rest of my life. I am not into the card hobby to make money off of them. I just like the cards. So go ahead and analyze your PSA, SGC or OCD graded cards like stockbrokers. Nope, not fun and not my cup of tea. If the hobby was like this when I was a kid, I would have found another hobby

Don't forget the "pop" and PSA registry. It's very fun if you're an anal eddie. I just like the cards too and accept that it's a billion dollar fraud and do my best to protect myself...somewhat. Do I wish PSA/PWCC et all would pay a price and go to jail at the risk of my collections value? Of course I do. Cheating the system for $$$ pisses me off. I've made mine with integrity as you did. We have earned the right to enjoy it any way we want. I would enjoy Brent bent over taking a plunger, running his scam on EBAY/PSA. Using the private bidding now, LOL. He is very trust worthy. Couldn't be shill bidding too???

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by trambo

Thanks. I don't spend a ton of time on that website so I'll take your word that it was a card they legitimately graded. Still leaves the other option as it wasn't one thing I said as a possibility but two.

So why does anyone think they picked that one card to invalidate to avoid extreme embarrassment versus any other card? Is it possible they realized they made a mistake and just corrected it? Does anyone know if the card is still in the slab?

So now the reason why the card isn't bad is because they didn't void any other slab numbers?

Classic.

Oh and thanks for taking Perezfan at his word Mr. Orlando.

[trambo]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Troy, the CJ I posted (and will continue to post) is a major f-ck up by PSA. The card is a clear reprint, obvious on many levels. Not only did they grade it, they authenticated it! They gave a numeric grade to a obvious reprint. As someone said elsewhere, perhaps the grade is an “opinion” but the authentication part is not. PSA quickly took action and took this card out of circulation. They rectified nothing. Instead, they tried to cover their tracks. Luckily we have pictures.

Wasn't trying to call you (or anyone) out, Ryan, so my apologies if you took it that way. Just saw one card, looked up the cert and saw it wasn't there. That was it. So I posted that the cert wasn't there anymore and it appears in this instance PSA corrected the error. Whether it was a cover up or not is opinion. Not sure why they'd pick that card versus some of the others that they missed as doctored for this cover up, though.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by trambo

Wasn't trying to call you (or anyone) out, Ryan, so my apologies if you took it that way. Just saw one card, looked up the cert and saw it wasn't there. That was it. So I posted that the cert wasn't there anymore and it appears in this instance PSA corrected the error. Whether it was a cover up or not is opinion. Not sure why they'd pick that card versus some of the others that they missed as doctored for this cover up, though.

because this mistake was as pathetic/embarrassing as a mistake can be...maybe?

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by trambo

Wasn't trying to call you (or anyone) out, Ryan, so my apologies if you took it that way. Just saw one card, looked up the cert and saw it wasn't there. That was it. So I posted that the cert wasn't there anymore and it appears in this instance PSA corrected the error. Whether it was a cover up or not is opinion. Not sure why they'd pick that card versus some of the others that they missed as doctored for this cover up, though.

No worries Troy. I took no offense! I am just clarifying that PSA had a colossal, negligent, and incompetent mess up on that particular card. I mean, it’s beyond comical how bad that one is/was

[trambo]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

So now the reason why the card isn't bad is because they didn't void any other slab numbers?

Classic.

Oh and thanks for taking Perezfan at his word Mr. Orlando.

Who said the card wasn't bad? Wasn't me, that's for sure.

My comments were in response to the "extreme embarrassment" comment of another poster and nowhere do I say PSA was correct in grading that card.