New BODA thread; PWCC selling previously outed cards now "reviewed by PSA"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

What a farce that there are a grand total of 3 replies to this alarming and highly disturbing topic.

The seized altered cards are going back into circulation instead of straight to the FBI (as we were assured). I guess nobody here cares about lying, fraud and corruption. What's a little multi-million dollar crime, when there are registries to complete and profits to be had?

I should have posted a thread about what's your favorite T206 background color, sorry.

BTW who assured us and when these cards were being taken out of circulation, I couldn't find it in a quick search, does anyone recall?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I should have posted a thread about what's your favorite T206 background color, sorry.

RED!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7NCv1FkCpA

EDIT: To your other question I believe it was the guy who kicked me off his forum.

[2dueces]

Whatever happened to the investigation into all the
Fake T206 autographed cards. It’s been what, 3 years?
If that wasn’t blatant enough for prosecution or at least
Some news this will soon fade just as that so called investigation did.

[Rhotchkiss]

I am not one to defend PWCC, but when they send someone else’s card back to PSA, who blesses their own earlier negligence and then sends the card back to PWCC, what is PWCC to do? They should not have to buy and destroy the card. It belongs to someone else. And, if that someone else choses to keep it in, and sell the card from, the vault, all PWCC can do is disclose the fact that PSA re-reviewed and re-approved the card and the grade. Is the FBI going to confiscate the card bc BODA says it’s altered but PSA says it’s not? No... unless PSA is the subject of the investigation, which apparently it is not.

PSA is the bad guy here. They are the “experts” who can’t do their job right the first time, and then double down on their mistakes by approving the mistake; hell, the “experts” at PSA can’t tell a clear 1914 CJ reprint, with perforated borders, from the real McCoy. In this case, PSA is the problem, not PWCC. PSA is a dirty shop, plain and simple. And that won’t change. “Never get Cheated”

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Johnny630]

PSA's argument we are rendering an opinion...that's it.

How can any Criminality Be Attached to an Opinion?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA's argument we are rendering an opinion...that's it.

How can any Criminality Be Attached to an Opinion?

Suppose (hypothetically of course) it's not a good faith opinion?

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose (hypothetically of course) it's not a good faith opinion?

Or a corruptly influenced opinion?

Also, criminal investigations, especially bank and wire fraud, take several years to bring to the US attorney for charging.
If PWCC is cooperating, it is possible they worked out a deal where they flip, pay a restitution fee, get to keep their livelihood and continue to assist the government in uncovering fraud.
That would be one heck of a deal. However, without knowing specifics, or seeing any affidavits attached to search warrants, all we can do is speculate.
On the other hand, it is possible that charges are not forthcoming.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagewhitesox

Or a corruptly influenced opinion?

Also, criminal investigations, especially bank and wire fraud, take several years to bring to the US attorney for charging.
If PWCC is cooperating, it is possible they worked out a deal where they flip, pay a restitution fee, get to keep their livelihood and continue to assist the government in uncovering fraud.
That would be one heck of a deal. However, without knowing specifics, or seeing any affidavits attached to search warrants, all we can do is speculate.
On the other hand, it is possible that charges are not forthcoming.

I think it's public knowledge they are cooperating.

[LOUCARDFAN]

PSA - Professional Sports Authenticator

Grading is an opinion. Authenticating (it's in their name) a card isn't and should NEVER be an opinion.

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA's argument we are rendering an opinion...that's it.

How can any Criminality Be Attached to an Opinion?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not one to defend PWCC, but when they send someone else’s card back to PSA, who blesses their own earlier negligence and then sends the card back to PWCC, what is PWCC to do? They should not have to buy and destroy the card. It belongs to someone else. And, if that someone else choses to keep it in, and sell the card from, the vault, all PWCC can do is disclose the fact that PSA re-reviewed and re-approved the card and the grade. Is the FBI going to confiscate the card bc BODA says it’s altered but PSA says it’s not? No... unless PSA is the subject of the investigation, which apparently it is not.

PSA is the bad guy here. They are the “experts” who can’t do their job right the first time, and then double down on their mistakes by approving the mistake; hell, the “experts” at PSA can’t tell a clear 1914 CJ reprint, with perforated borders, from the real McCoy. In this case, PSA is the problem, not PWCC. PSA is a dirty shop, plain and simple. And that won’t change. “Never get Cheated”

Ryan Hotchkiss

To the bold part only. I noticed at first those that cared called out the people altering and selling the cards. Then when some of the hobby icons got called out for being the bad guys it suddenly became PSAs fault.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Suppose PWCC knew the card was from Gary and that he had or likely had altered it (hypothetically of course)? Change your analysis, Ryan?

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Suppose PWCC knew the card was from Gary and that he had or likely had altered it (hypothetically of course)? Change your analysis, Ryan?

Its not PWCC's card. I suppose they can refuse to sell it, but its not their property to dispose of. In the case where PWCC knows its from Gary and/or likely has been altered, then can (1) not allow the owner to use PWCC to sell it, (2) get a re-evaluation and disclose, or (3) just list/sell it, not ask for a re-evaluation and not disclose their suspicions. But it is not their property to dispose of.

I would hope PWCC did #1, like Brian of Mile High just did with the Tiger Woods. But if PWCC does #2, then I cannot fault them (the link does not go to listing so I do not know what kind of disclosure was made); assuming the disclosure is real and informative, they are selling their client's property and being honest about what is being sold.

Look, I am not a defender of PWCC at all. But if someone comes to an AH with a PSA numerically graded card, and the AH has reason to believe that PSA is wrong and the card is likely altered, I think making a full and honest disclosure, while not ideal, is acceptable.

Ben, with regards to your post, I dont think you are implying anything of me, but to be clear, I have never altered a card in my life (I did cut 1986 Topps cards off the bottom of the boxes!).

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think it's been taken down which is why you can't find it.

As far as the options you mention, the problem with selling it even with disclosure is that it keeps the card in circulation and the next guy probably sells it with no disclosure. Of course that can happen too if you refuse to sell it give it back to the consignor and he shops it elsewhere.

I guess the best one can do is resolve not to be part of the problem, which is certainly better than cooperating in some dog and pony re-review of a clearly bad card.

PS I understand PWCC can't hand over someone else's card, I did not mean to suggest they should, I was just struck by the apparent inconsistency between doing that on cards they had bought back and going this route on other outed cards.

[frankrizzo29]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I am not one to defend PWCC, but when they send someone else’s card back to PSA, who blesses their own earlier negligence and then sends the card back to PWCC, what is PWCC to do? They should not have to buy and destroy the card. It belongs to someone else. And, if that someone else choses to keep it in, and sell the card from, the vault, all PWCC can do is disclose the fact that PSA re-reviewed and re-approved the card and the grade. Is the FBI going to confiscate the card bc BODA says it’s altered but PSA says it’s not? No... unless PSA is the subject of the investigation, which apparently it is not.

PSA is the bad guy here. They are the “experts” who can’t do their job right the first time, and then double down on their mistakes by approving the mistake; hell, the “experts” at PSA can’t tell a clear 1914 CJ reprint, with perforated borders, from the real McCoy. In this case, PSA is the problem, not PWCC. PSA is a dirty shop, plain and simple. And that won’t change. “Never get Cheated”

Ryan Hotchkiss

+1000

This hobby is too dependent on TPG's to slab cards, which in turn converts pieces of cardboard into a commodity that can be easily bought and sold. This will be a never ending debate until there is a proven TPG that has never graded an altered card and that the hobby/collectors trust.

[Frank A]

Instead of taking a stand, people just keep sending cards to PSA. How dumb can you get?

[Oscar_Stanage]

Originally Posted by Frank A

Instead of taking a stand, people just keep sending cards to PSA. How dumb can you get?

its simple, PWCC churns out PSA cards in auction at a 35% premium to the last sale.. then after the market has moved, the same cards trickle out from the vault even higher- I wonder who owns these?

then people come on net54 and talk about the PSA premium. its a joke.

Exactly why I don't have even one graded card in my collection and have never sent a card to be graded, ever. These guys have been doing this since the 90's. Nothing new and people still send their cards to them. It's all about the Benjamins for many people. I enjoy cards for what they are not what they are worth and it makes the hobby so much more enjoyable. Nuff said.

[egri]

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Whatever happened to the investigation into all the
Fake T206 autographed cards. It’s been what, 3 years?
If that wasn’t blatant enough for prosecution or at least
Some news this will soon fade just as that so called investigation did.

I haven't heard anything from that in a while. I know the member who started it got tossed because he wouldn't verify his identity, but as far as I can tell the only change has been SGC exiting the autograph authentication business.