second year cards more valuable than rookies?

[begsu1013]

52 mantle
71 munson
92 favre stadium club
76 george brett (in psa 9)
71 blue
71 buckner
62 williams (in 8)
t210 jackson
92 martinez bowman


edited to add honorable mentions:

71 bench
52 campanella
67 maury wills
86 ryne sandberg in 10
52t mays in a 9. (no recent 51b 9 sale)
73 joe morgan 9 (until recent hof rc buying group surge bubble, at least)


interesting side notes of this thread:

lou pinella has 3 two player rookie cards.
bill davis has 5 topps rookie cards.

__________________________________________________ __________


can be pre or post, but curious what other player's second year card is considered more valuable than their rookie card in the same grade.

don't mind if regional/obscure oddballs/xrc's are thrown into the mix, but really wanting to concentrate on the predominate runs....

the 52 mantle is a world unto it's own obviously, but a prime example of what i'm looking for is the 71 munson. even in a 8, it's nearly 2x's what you can pick up his 70 in a 9 for...

any other examples that you can think of?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Your examples are not good. Mantle is that high of a price ONLY because it is the first year of Topps.

To answer the question, truly depends on the player. If it's a top prospect, nothing sells more than hype in your example.

If it's an outside 100 prospect or whatever, they may have significantly more value their second year (depending on performance of course).

This is for current minor leaguers. Buxton great example. His prices will go up most likely because it's hard to do as poorly as he did (he clearly could be worse). But they may not reach his hype peak ever again, unless he starts doing what he was scouted to do.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

71 Bench in high grade is worth more than the rookie.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

71 Bench in high grade is worth more than the rookie.

Condition sensitivity? I totally forgot that aspect.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

52T Campanella probably worth more across the board than his 49B

[begsu1013]

same grade. it's up there.

i noted the mantle.

i think the munson is a fantastic example.

especially considering the 71 8 almost doubles what a 70 9 goes for!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Condition sensitivity? I totally forgot that aspect.


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Yes, exactly. Or in the case of the 52 high numbers (Campanella example), just plain relative scarcity.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

same grade.

Yes, Bench 8 in 1971 sells for more than Bench 8 in 1968 I believe.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

52T Campanella probably worth more across the board than his 49B

I think you got to go by the same card company...where the 2nd year is worth more than the rookie....its a bit unfair to compare bowman 'rookie' with Topps (pseudo rookie ie. First Topps Card')

You dont see 'first bowman card' for a reason...you only see first topps card...

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, exactly. Or in the case of the 52 high numbers (Campanella example), just plain relative scarcity.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

52T Campanella probably worth more across the board than his 49B

And that 49 Bowman set is so unattractive. Right, makes sense.


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[begsu1013]

71 is not bench's second year, but nevertheless a good call.

and it would be nice to keep it the same company but even that's asking too much, i think

perfect world, same company, same grade and keeping it rookie year vs second year...

but it's hard to put any boundaries here, so throw out anything ya got...

even the 71 bench 8. ; )

[Peter_Spaeth]

In general I would think these could yield any other examples.
1. Where the RC is an undesirable black and white issue like 39PB (Ted) or 48B with no corresponding Leaf (Berra).
2. Where the later card is a scarce high number.
3. Where the later card is in a condition sensitive set but none comes to mind except 71T.

[begsu1013]

definitely agree.

i think any examples produced will be products of the 52t, condition sensitive sets like the 71 or simply rc's that happened to land in an unattractive set.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

definitely agree.

i think any examples produced will be products of the 52t, condition sensitive sets like the 71 or simply rc's that happened to land in an unattractive set.

you mean unattractive set of a different company...if its the same company is going to have to be a condition sensitive etc

[Peter_Spaeth]

Name a player whose second year card was six years after his RC. Both Topps.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Name a player whose second year card was six years after his RC.

Second card a Goudey issue? lol


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Second card a Goudey issue? lol


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Topps for both.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Topps for both.

Dang!..I'm sure someone on here knows. Gotta be either a military break or a cup of coffee then didn't make it back up for a while. Maybe Adam Greenberg?


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Dang!..I'm sure someone on here knows. Gotta be either a military break or a cup of coffee then didn't make it back up for a while. Maybe Adam Greenberg?


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Oops I had the question wrong sorry!! He had a first year card, a second year card (I didn't realize he had this one damn just found out), and then his third card is not until five years later. And there is a second player with a four year gap between his first and second cards. 50s/60s era.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

you mean unattractive set of a different company...if its the same company is going to have to be a condition sensitive etc

ignoring.

[Rookiemonster]

1969 topps Johnny bench is pretty close .

The only other card I can think of off the top of my head is in football . Brett Favre 1992 stadium club high series .

[begsu1013]

will add the 92 favre.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Oops I had the question wrong sorry!! He had a first year card, a second year card (I didn't realize he had this one damn just found out), and then his third card is not until five years later. And there is a second player with a four year gap between his first and second cards. 50s/60s era.

Not sure if this falls into the realm of your intent, but Maury Wills' rookie card is a '63 Fleer, and he didn't get a Topps until about 5 years later ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[begsu1013]

that's kinda why I said hard to put any boundaries on the rules...

is the topps card more valuable than the fleer in similar grade?

if so, i'll add it to the the honorable mentions list....

[Paul S]

All things being equal, I'd say they are equally negligible in value, but the Fleer has the cool factor...so I guess I'm out (unless I get points for spelling negligible?)

[begsu1013]

seems to certainly fit the from my brief research in a psa 8 grade.

edit: points for negligible awarded as well.

[the 'stache]

Besides being a high series card, the Favre Stadium Club card is unique, as his first Stadium Club card was issued when he was an Atlanta Falcon. The second, more valuable card, was issued when he went to Green Bay. Munson, Bench, Mantle et all stayed with the same team for their careers. The Falcons gave up a future Hall of Famer. The Packers fleeced the Falcons badly. <3 Ron Wolf.

[MR RAREBACK]

.

[MR RAREBACK]

.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MR RAREBACK

joe nuxhall josh hamilton gap after rookie card

No idea about Hamilton. Not Nuxhall. The ones I was thinking of are Mike Cuellar (59 60T then no card until 65T) and Lou Piniella (64T then no card until 68T). I had not thought of Wills but that is a great one.

Speaking of Piniella he must be the only player to appear on THREE of the two player rookie cards -- 64 68 and then again in 69. All with different teams.

[Mikehealer]

This isn't a great example, but in cards graded a 9, George Brett's '76 card almost doubles his '75 card. Not so much in 8's or less.

[ALR-bishop]

[QUOTE

Speaking of Piniella he must be the only player to appear on THREE of the two player rookie cards -- 64 68 and then again in 69. All with different teams.[/QUOTE]

Check out Bill Davis

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

[QUOTE

Speaking of Piniella he must be the only player to appear on THREE of the two player rookie cards -- 64 68 and then again in 69. All with different teams.

Check out Bill Davis[/QUOTE]

That is absolutely incredible.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

will add the 92 favre.

I think the 91 Wild Card 1000 Stripe would be a Rookie and far more valuable than the 92 Stadium Club.

[Touch'EmAll]

Historically, when did rookie cards become THE card of a player - most expensive? Back after WW2, in the 1950's, in the 60's or early 70's? When exactly did rookie cards become the most sought after, highest priced, even though not most rare cards of a particular player? Who made up the rookie card rules, who is most responsible for the rookie card craze? Was it one person, a small group, or did the public at large all of a sudden decide, yeah, thats it, the rookie cards - and forever more they will be over prices relative to the rarity of the other cards?

[glenv]

I don't think rookie cards really shot up in price until the 90s. There was a price guide from the 80's that had a Garvey rookie for $6, the '72 for $25, and the '73 for $4. Most cards in it cost more the older they were, but no huge premiums for rookies.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I think the 91 Wild Card 1000 Stripe would be a Rookie and far more valuable than the 92 Stadium Club.

trying not to set boundaries, but you are entering into the realm of variants which i think negate it from being removed. plus there is a 91 stadium club, so i gotta leave it at this point...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Historically, when did rookie cards become THE card of a player - most expensive? Back after WW2, in the 1950's, in the 60's or early 70's? When exactly did rookie cards become the most sought after, highest priced, even though not most rare cards of a particular player? Who made up the rookie card rules, who is most responsible for the rookie card craze? Was it one person, a small group, or did the public at large all of a sudden decide, yeah, thats it, the rookie cards - and forever more they will be over prices relative to the rarity of the other cards?

It actually made sense back in the late 70's when I first got into collecting. I asked the same question.

The reason was that most kids only collected for a few years, usually 2-4 maybe a bit longer. And at the time most players weren't great their first year.
So a kid collects say 51-54, gets an Aaron, along with a bunch of earlier cards.

Now in 55 he's making room for whatever his new interest is.

And either he gives the cards to a younger brother or another kid, or he or mom throw them out. But maybe he keeps a handful of cards of favorite players.

It's unlikely the new kid in Milwaukee who hit 13 homers and batted .280 is in that group.
So the rookie card becomes a bit less common than say the 55 where a kid may have collected from say 55 to 59 and might be more apt to save the established star.


That being said, card survival was an iffy thing. My own Reggie Jackson rookie survived a move and 6 years in the toybox. I also checked out a good friends card "collection" before he gave it to his nephew. 5 early 70's cards total not all the same year. All commons except the 73 Schmidt.
And when my moms coworker brought in her kids collections for me to buy she kept maybe 10 cards. Her kids favorite - Mantle of course.

Steve B

[Peter_Spaeth]

Not sure if still true but there was a time when 92 Bowman Chipper Jones cost more than 91 Bowman.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

This isn't a great example, but in cards graded a 9, George Brett's '76 card almost doubles his '75 card. Not so much in 8's or less.

i would like to thank mikehealer for point out my complete idiocy. i am a huge collector of the 76 brett card. even snagged that recent psa 8.

the 76 brett is almost impossible to find w/o a tilt, a severe pd and it's almost always completely oc. to find one otherwise is a true needle.

you are completely right and im an idiot.

the 76 in a 9 most certainly trumps a 75 in a 9.

this fits the criteria of exactly what i'm looking for.

so great example and good work!

[tschock]

As in Ghostbusters, crossing the streams is bad (comparing Bowmans to Topps, for example), and it makes it difficult to reasonably compare '48-'51 Bowmans to '51-'52 Topps. So if we shouldn't compare inter-company cards (and I basically agree with that), then we are left comparing intra-company cards. Which then also means that we will at times be comparing second cards to first cards and maybe not true 'rookie' cards. With that in mind, I think most if not all First/RC from the '51 Topps set would be less than those from the '52 set in similar condition.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

i would like to thank mikehealer for point out my complete idiocy. i am a huge collector of the 76 brett card. even snagged that recent psa 8.

the 76 brett is almost impossible to find w/o a tilt, a severe pd and it's almost always completely oc. to find one otherwise is a true needle.

you are completely right and im an idiot.

the 76 in a 9 most certainly trumps a 75 in a 9.

good work!

A 1975 PSA 9 just sold for 2765 in PWCC, whereas the prior ones mostly seem to go in the high 1s. I wonder what was so special about this one.

[begsu1013]

[QUOTE=ALR-bishop;1507047]

Check out Bill Davis

al,

might not fit the criteria...(hadn't researched all 4 cards yet on pricing yet)

BUT

that is incredible and making a note on the original post.

and thanks for teaching me something today!

[Peter_Spaeth]

At least in PSA 8, 1971 Topps Vida Blue outsells 1970 Topps RC. Same with 71 Buckner.

[Rookiemonster]

If we are getting grades involved then willie Mays fits . 1951 bowman to 1952 topps is the same for the most part in the mid range . The 1952 is cheaper in poorer conditions . But in high grade the 52 goes for more .

There are a lot more 52 out there then 51s .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Whenever I see your smiling face, I have to smile myself...

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whenever I see your smiling face, I have to smile myself...

Did this poor guy ever end up getting a card all by himself? Talk about the perpetual rookie.

Brian

[ALR-bishop]

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whenever I see your smiling face, I have to smile myself...

how does this even happen?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Did this poor guy ever end up getting a card all by himself? Talk about the perpetual rookie.

Brian

That's the other funny part of it. No, at least in the next several years which I checked.

Oops see below.