Check out these T213-2 "error cards".....Show & Tell us about your T213's

[tedzan]

Ed Summers' MLB career ended with Detroit in 1912.

Shown here is a 1914 COUPON (T213-2) card depicting Summers with the Brooklyn Tip Tops of the Federal League.

Definitely a No-No......Summers never pitched for this Brooklyn team.

However, Rudy Sommers was a pitcher for the Brooklyn Tip Tops in 1914. My guess is that American Lithographic mistook Summers for Sommers ? ?

What's your guess ?

......................... 1910 ............................................ 1910 ............................................ 1914
. ................................




TED Z
.

[Leon]

Ted, your explanation on this one makes sense. I am surprised this issue hasn't been brought up before as there are a lot of T213 collectors.

[Sean]

Great catch Ted. We can always count on you for interesting notes about these cards.

[t213]

There are several other T213-2s with player/team combinations that never existed. I have a list somewhere, just not handy at the moment.

Andy

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by t213

There are several other T213-2s with player/team combinations that never existed. I have a list somewhere, just not handy at the moment.

Andy

This is very true.

I'm going to post and display a few more of these T213 cards with wrong players (or wrong teams) after I scan the cards.

When you find your list, please post it here.


TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

One of the ones that I remember is the Bill Chappelle/Larry Chappell mix-up. Bill played for the 1914 Brooklyn Tip-Tops...Larry played for the 1916 Cleveland Indians. I'll see if I still have either one of these cards and post scans later if I do...I guess if they meant for the 1916 "No R" card to be Larry Chappell, then it was not an error...

[tedzan]

From 1909-1914, Germany Schaefer played with the Washington Senators. The 1915 season he played for Newark in the Federal League (not Kansas City,
as this 1914 COUPON card states).

In 1900, Schaefer played for the Kansas City Blues. Perhaps that has something to do as to why the mix-up occurred with his T213-2 card.


.








TED Z
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[z28jd]

I have 1/20th of a Schaefer T213

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I have 1/20th of a Schaefer T213

.


Cool card of Owen Wilson / Schaefer....thanks for displaying it.


TED Z
.

[ValKehl]

Hi Ted,
Thought you might like to see this 1915 issue that also incorrectly states the team that "Germany" played for:
Val

[nolemmings]

I've been intrigued by t213-2s for awhile now. Ted, another mistake like the one you mention is Tim Jordan, who played for Toronto in 1914 and part of 1915 but who never played for Fort Worth, yet his t213-2 can be found with either team listed. Seems there was also a Timothy Jordan who played for the Fort Worth Panthers in those years, about whom little is known. Don't know if they thought they had the right guy or just figured it was close enough.

Can anyone point me to research on how the t213-2s were distributed over the three years? Was the same group of 63 or so cards printed each year with just updated or changed team info and the occasional airbrush like Collins and Herzog? Is there any player in the set who is not captioned with his 1914 team but just a 1915 and/or 1916 team?

[RCMcKenzie]

Todd,

Interesting points. Harry Krause only has one T213-2 card and it is captioned "Omaha". Krause only played for Omaha for one year in 1916.

The other '1 card only' subjects seem to be from 1914. I'm about halfway through looking for the exceptions, so far Krause is the only post 1914 I've seen.
Also, the Dunn Baltimore has to be "Jack" Dunn, Baltimore's Manager in 1914 & 1916. Not Joe Dunn...

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I've been intrigued by t213-2s for awhile now. Ted, another mistake like the one you mention is Tim Jordan, who played for Toronto in 1914 and part of 1915 but who never played for Fort Worth, yet his t213-2 can be found with either team listed. Seems there was also a Timothy Jordan who played for the Fort Worth Panthers in those years, about whom little is known. Don't know if they thought they had the right guy or just figured it was close enough.

Can anyone point me to research on how the t213-2s were distributed over the three years? Was the same group of 63 or so cards printed each year with just updated or changed team info and the occasional airbrush like Collins and Herzog?

Is there any player in the set who is not captioned with his 1914 team but just a 1915 and/or 1916 team?

Todd

Nice research on Tim Jordan.


I am still in the process of researching these T213-2 guys. However, to answer your question......Sherry Magee (batting) is identified with Boston NL, which he played for in 1915-1917.

Furthermore, my Chase portrait with Chicago (shown here) is a 1914 issue. I have seen this same portrait of Chase with Buffalo, FL (1915 issue). And, the T213-2 Chase (Trophy) card
identifies him with Buffalo.



Timeline

............... 1910 .................................................. .............. 1914 .................................................. ............ 1919 ................................................ 1914-1915







TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Thanks Ted. I'm trying to figure out whether cards were added and subtracted in 1915 and 1916, or were just the captions changed. It seems there were some changes--like the Krause that was mentioned. Magee though has a t213-2 card with the Phillies, his 1914 team, so he was around for all three years.

Then you get guys like Tom Needham, who last played in 1914 (and Billy Purtell--Detroit). Did he continue to get printed or was he replaced? And George Mullin, who has 1914 and 1915 Fed Lg. Cards and then was done. Since the Federal Lg itself did not make it to 1916, I assume his 1915 card was not reprinted in 1916, and as he had no other team identification, he was replaced. Same for Russ Ford and Buffalo.

Here's a pic of the Tim Jordan, Fort Worth and the Jack/Joe Dunn, Baltimore:

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thanks Ted. I'm trying to figure out whether cards were added and subtracted in 1915 and 1916, or were just the captions changed. It seems there were some changes--like the Krause that was mentioned. Magee though has a t213-2 card with the Phillies, his 1914 team, so he was around for all three years.

Then you get guys like Tom Needham, who last played in 1914 (and Billy Purtell--Detroit). Did he continue to get printed or was he replaced? And George Mullin, who has 1914 and 1915 Fed Lg. Cards and then was done. Since the Federal Lg itself did not make it to 1916, I assume his 1915 card was not reprinted in 1916, and as he had no other team identification, he was replaced. Same for Russ Ford and Buffalo.

Todd

Here's one....Josh Devore's T213-2 card identifies him with Chillicothe (Ohio State League).

Devore retired from MLB at the end of the 1914 season. He became the playing/manager for Chillicothe in the 1915 season.

I do not think there is a 1914 card of him. But then, I may be proven wrong.



TED Z
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[nolemmings]

Ted, I'm afraid Devore has a 1914 card with the Phillies as well, so he was around at the beginning of t213-2. Interesting though, is why he wasn't included in 1916 for either of his teams that year, Topeka or Milwaukee. These cities had to be at least as important in the baseball world. Maybe Coupon wasn't aware if Mr. Devore's travels? Did they reprint Chillicothe or drop him in 1916?

Also, Devore left Philly for Boston in mid-1914 and yet shows for the Phillies, meaning the first run of T213-2s must have been done before his trade on 7/3/14. We could probably pin it down further if every player in the set has his movements reviewed.

[RCMcKenzie]

Here's the other Jordan and the two Devore's...I agree that we could pin down the release dates for players that played only one year for a team, but for someone who played all 3 years for the same club, 1914-1916, I assume they re-issued the same card each year. I don't know of any rare cards that fit that type of card/player...I'm going to study on it some more as I'm working on T213-2 again where I left off...I'm about halfway through.

[nolemmings]

Keep 'em coming. It also looks like Gabby Street was added after the first year, since he appears for Nashville, where he played 1915-16, but does not show for Chattanooga, his 1914 team.

[tedzan]

I found my Chase portrait with Buffalo (FL)....my guess it's a 1915 issue. Also, the T213-2 card of Chase (Trophy) identifies him with Buffalo.



Timeline

............... 1910 .................................................. ................. 1914 .................................................. ........... 1919 .................................................. ......... 1915








TED Z
.

Jack Warhop, St. Louis Nationals. Never played for them. His whole Major League career was spent with the New York Highlanders/Yankees.

[mybuddyinc]

Very neat information. I figure the Quality Assurance in pieces of cardboard stuck in cigarette packs was probably not at it's highest level. Just get them and get them out !!!


I only own one Coupon, and, of course, it Camnitz, Savannah.

camsav.jpg

Harry Camnitz pitched in Savannah in 1915, which makes sense for a Type 2 time frame. Although the corresponding T206 is always considered Howie.

Not that big a deal, but they can't both be right

Cool! I've never seen the Savannah version of Camnitz before.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by mybuddyinc

I only own one Coupon, and, of course, it Camnitz, Savannah.

Harry Camnitz pitched in Savannah in 1915, which makes sense for a Type 2 time frame. Although the corresponding T206 is always considered Howie.

Not that big a deal, but they can't both be right

I tend to think your card depicts Howie. But, as you correctly stated, it was Harry that was pitching for Savannah in 1915 (after a very brief MLB career).

Anyhow, here is the other brother Camnitz portrayed with Pittsburg (Fed. Lge.).

I think American Lithographic had these guys mixed up ?






TED Z
.

[Sean]

Ted, those cards both look like the same guy to me. The other T206 Camnitz, with his arms folded, looks like Harry Camnitz. I think.

[mybuddyinc]

Agree, T206 wise, have always felt "above head" and "at side" were Howie (rounder, fuller face); "arms folded" was Harry (slender, angler).

From Baseball Reference:

Howie:

zzhowie.jpg

Harry:

zzharry.jpg

Fun stuff Scott

[Pat R]

I agree with Sean and Scott.

[RCMcKenzie]

My guess is that instead of "errors" the set consists of cards that use generic images for current players like Buchner Gold Coin or e91 cards. The distributers were using images that were 5 years old and they were trying to include new cities and players to increase demand for the "new" cards of current players.

[tedzan]

Howie

Harry



Sorry guys, but I have to differ with you.

First, with only a profile image on the lower card, there's no way that anyone can compare it with photos of Howie or Harry. On the other hand, there is a close
resemblance in the facial features (nose, ears, lips, etc.) in the images of the three top cards.

Furthermore, the lower card's image shows a more youthful face. Harry was 3 years younger than Howie.

Finally (and the clincher to this argument)....Harry's brief MLB career did not start until Sept 29, 1909. This fact then negates any belief that the "arms folded"
pose image could possibly be Harry. American Lithographic started printing their 150 Series cards in the Spring/Summer of 1909. The "arms folded" pose was
most likely drawn from a 1908 (or earlier) photo of Howie. Therefore, it's my opinion that this pose is indeed Howie (whose MLB career started in April 1904).


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

My guess is that instead of "errors" the set consists of cards that use generic images for current players like Buchner Gold Coin or e91 cards. The distributers were using images that were 5 years old and they were trying to include new cities and players to increase demand for the "new" cards of current players.

Wow ! ......your Street and Meyers are great looking cards.

The Meyers / Brooklyn is the first one that I've seen. This T213 is a tough 1916 card.
The 1914 (or 1915) New York NL version of Meyers is much more common.

Thanks for showing them to us.

Let's see some more of them.


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Ted, I understand that the arms folded card is Howie, and so is the T205. And the profile card is Harry.

It's the other card that I question. In the hands above head card the face seems older (so Howie), but the features seem to be a closer match to Harry.
Also,the Coupon card that Scott posted above uses the same picture, and that is intended to be Harry, who played on Savannah.

So my best guess is that the hands above head card is Harry Camnitz.

PS- That is a great Street, Nashville card.

[Mountaineer1999]

Originally Posted by Sean

Ted, I understand that the arms folded card is Howie, and so is the T205. And the profile card is Harry.

It's the other card that I question. In the hands above head card the face seems older (so Howie), but the features seem to be a closer match to Harry.
Also,the Coupon card that Scott posted above uses the same picture, and that is intended to be Harry, who played on Savannah.

So my best guess is that the hands above head card is Harry Camnitz.

PS- That is a great Street, Nashville card.

So there are two Camnitz's in the T206 set? I thought they were all Howie, had no idea of a Harry.

[buymycards]

Hi Rob, your PSA card of Wilson says "Type II", but with the black font, it must be a type one. There is only 1 Wilson card in the Type II set, and that card shows him with St Louis. Is your Wilson card a Type I?

Thanks,

Rick

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Sean

Ted, those cards both look like the same guy to me.

The other T206 Camnitz, with his arms folded, looks like Harry Camnitz. I think.

1st......
The above is your Post #25, where you stated you think the "arms folded" pose card of Camnitz looks like Harry. Then two other guys who followed your post agreed with you.

Well, in my opinion, all three of you are wrong regarding the Camnitz (arms folded) card as Harry.

But Sean....now, you are saying otherwise ?
I'm confused ? ?


In Post #29, I responded to you guys with a logical argument why the 150 Series Camnitz (arms folded) card cannot possibly be Harry. His MLB career started on Sept 29, 1909.
That date is approx. 6 months after American Litho printed and issued their initial 150 Series press runs which included this Camnitz card.


2nd......

Originally Posted by Sean

Ted, I understand that the arms folded card is Howie, and so is the T205. And the profile card is Harry.

It's the other card that I question. In the hands above head card the face seems older (so Howie), but the features seem to be a closer match to Harry.
Also,the Coupon card that Scott posted above uses the same picture, and that is intended to be Harry, who played on Savannah.

So my best guess is that the hands above head card is Harry Camnitz.

Sean..... I don't think this picture is of Harry. The face looks like that of an older man. Yes, we all know that Harry pitched for Savannah in 1915, but I just chalk this up to another
one of American Litho's (ALC) mistakes in this T213 series. In my opinion this card is of Howie and ALC simply mis-captioned it.

Sean, good buddy, sorry to be so disagreeable here



TED Z
.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, my first post was confusing. My second is what I believe to be correct. I still think that the hands over head could show Harry.

The face looks older, but looks more like Harry, I think. And yes, American Litho seemed to think this is Harry, but that could be another of their mistakes. So I guess that I'm not sure.

Well, this has been fun, but I need to go to work now. Bye.

[tedzan]

Yes....it has been fun

Besides owning all these little tobacco cards, there's added pleasure derived from researching their subjects.


Take care, good buddy.


TED Z
.

[RCMcKenzie]

Ted and Sean...Thanks on the Gabby Street...As y'all say its in nice shape for a T213-2...

Rick, Yes, you are right, it's a T213-1 and it's with my T213-1's in the T213-1 box. It was an old scan that I had made for another thread which I can't remember now. The PSA flip is incorrect...

The Frank Chance cards from this set are cool... Here's one of my favorite cards from the set. I'll make some more scans of T213-2 and post later in the week...Rob

[tedzan]

Really nice Frank Chance....Yankees Manager....I've got to get one.



Tommy Leach was printed on three T213's.... 1914 (Chicago NL )....1915 (Cinci)....1916 (Rochester).






TED Z
.

[buymycards]

Here are the other 2 Leach cards

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Here are the other 2 Leach cards

Thanks Rick

We hit the Tommy Leach "trifecta".


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Hey you T206 collectors......

If you want a reasonably priced Demmitt (St Louis image), I recommend that you acquire his T213-2 card







TED Z
.

[nolemmings]

Here's a 1914 Solly Hofman captioned the only year he played for the Tin Tops. He has a 1915 card from the set showing Peoria, but my guess, since Solly never played there, is that they meant to represent Izzy Hoffman, player-manager of the Peoria Distillers that one 1915 season.

[Seiklis]

My two Clevelands

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Here's a 1914 Solly Hofman captioned the only year he played for the Tin Tops. He has a 1915 card from the set showing Peoria, but my guess, since Solly never played there, is that they meant to represent Izzy Hoffman, player-manager of the Peoria Distillers that one 1915 season.

Nice. Solly is high grade. We rarely see the type 2s (or 1) above a grade of vg-ex. I have always liked the captions in blue. (ie... Nadjas, D359, T215-2 etc....)

[tedzan]

......was one of the deadball era's biggest guys at 6' 5" tall and 230 lbs. He was a Catcher with Cinci. for 7 years. And, played for the NY Giants his last 3 years.

He would frequently get into bar-room brawls. His last one was in a Boston speakeasy in 1921. McLean attacked the bartender, who drew his gun and shot him.



.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

My favorite T213-2 card is this one of Mike Donlin, in which American Litho enhanced his card's caption..... " .300 batter 7 years ".

"Turkey Mike" was the Talk of the Town in New York city. He was indeed a "character", both on and off the field, and New Yorkers just loved him.
And, he was one of John McGraw's favorites.

Actually, Donlin batted over .300 in 10 years of his 12-year career......good for a .333 career BA. Plus, he had a career SLG avg. = .468 (equal
to Honus Wagner's career SLG avg.).

With a lifetime BA = .333, Mike Donlin would be in the HOF....if had he taken his BB career more seriously. Instead of vaudeville and the movies.



.







TED Z
.

[Sean]

Hey Ted, Donlin is my favorite player from the T206 set. I always like drunken Irishmen. And I love the caption in the T213 set.

Why did they list his accomplishments instead of his team? Was it because he was retired, so he didn't have a team? And if so why include him in the set? Was he just that popular?

And also, Happy Thanksgiving.

[tedzan]

Hi Sean....and, a Happy Thanksgiving to you.

American Lithographic (ALC) most likely did not list Donlin's team because he was in transition (Phillies or Giants ? ?) at the time of this T213 card's printing.

It appears to me that ALC was very responsive to the popularity of both Mike Donlin and Hal Chase in the New York scene (circa 1909 - 1916). Because they
printed these guys on many of their white-bordered tobacco cards.


TED Z
.

[buymycards]

Ted, that Donlin .300 card is one of my favorites. I have bid on several of them over the years, but I have never been able to win one. I guess I am too cheap, but that is one card that I would love to add to my collection.

Rick

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Sean....and, a Happy Thanksgiving to you.

American Lithographic (ALC) most likely did not list Donlin's team because he was in transition (Phillies or Giants ? ?) at the time of this T213 card's printing.

It appears to me that ALC was very responsive to the popularity of both Mike Donlin and Hal Chase in the New York scene (circa 1909 - 1916). Because they
printed these guys on many of their white-bordered tobacco cards.


TED Z
.

Ted... I thought Donlin was claimed on waivers by Philadelphia from Pittsburgh
in late 1912 and he announced his retirement but made a comeback attempt
in the minors in the summer of 1913 and then played with NY in 1914.