PSA grade head scratcher

[LKeeler]

Hey guys, needed some advice concerning a recent PSA submission, and mainly when and if I need to ask them what happened. I had a E92 Wagner SGC 4 Wagner Throwing. I am putting together a PSA graded set and wanted the Wags as PSA so cracked it out of the SGC slab. This is no big deal as I do it all of the time as the SGC cases are extremely easy to get the card out of safely. So I extract the card safely, inspect it, and know for a fact that it is wrinkle/crease free and is a solid 4. Off the card goes to PSA, Super Express service. The card gets graded, and is posted as a 2. Now I know about the grading game and it is often like Russian Roulette and "player beware", but I have to assume that something happened to the card to turn into a 2. So my question is, do I call PSA now and figure out WTH, or wait until the card arrives and see for myself? I have attached a scan of the card. Thanks!

[KCRfan1]

You're right, it is Russian Roulette. There is human element involved in grading and in the PSA graders eye, the card graded a 2. A grade by one company does not mean you get the same grade from another. Perhaps SGC was generous in the grade to begin with. Are you wanting another 4 or would you be happy with a 3 as you are clearly not happy with the 2. ( I understand grading and reselling and how grading affects the value ) Why not crack and resub to try to get the desired grade? I know many on the board here will much to say about your cross over grade. as this subject has been beaten to death.

[the 'stache]

Luke, I would contact them immediately, and get an explanation as to why the grade is so much lower than you anticipated.

If those front and back scans you've provided with your posts are recent, and indicative of the card's quality prior to submission (and you know for a fact that you did not damage the card by removing it, or placing it into the card saver you used to ship it), then I hate to say it, but it's highly possible that somebody at PSA mishandled the card, and you should be due a cash credit to compensate for the loss of value. The only other explanation is that the card somehow shifted en route.

Did you happen to re-scan the card again after cracking it?

I'm so sorry this happened to you. It's a beautiful card, and no amount of cash is going to make up for the damage that might have been done. But make sure to get satisfaction, and let us know what happens.

Good luck!

Bill

[LKeeler]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

You're right, it is Russian Roulette. There is human element involved in grading and in the PSA graders eye, the card graded a 2. Perhaps SGC was generous in the grade to begin with. Why not crack and resub to try to get the desired grade? I know many on the board here will much to say about your cross over grade. as this subject has been beaten to death.

Thanks Lou. You are right. My biggest question I guess is if it got damaged "in the shop" so to speak, when is the best time to address it: when they still have it, or when it gets returned? I would assume that if this was the case I would have been notified, or would I just get a creased, graded card returned?

[LKeeler]

Thanks Bill. The only scan was before I cracked. I didn't take one afterwards because the scanner at work probably hasn't been cleaned in 10 years! Yes, perhaps it did shift during it's travels but I am pretty confident that my packaging was up to snuff. Will keep you posted.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

You're right, it is Russian Roulette. There is human element involved in grading and in the PSA graders eye, the card graded a 2. Perhaps SGC was generous in the grade to begin with. Why not crack and resub to try to get the desired grade? I know many on the board here will much to say about your cross over grade. as this subject has been beaten to death.

I tend to agree with you, Lou, but I really want to know what the principal reason for the lower grade is. A 2 is indicative they're seeing some kind of damage to the card that I just don't see in the scan. I've been checking it out in Photoshop, and I see nothing that would warrant that kind of a grade (again, operating under the assumption that what we are seeing accurately represents the current condition of the card @ PSA)



I see no creases or wrinkles, no paper loss, nothing in my comparatively limited experience with pre-war card grading that could justify this grade.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by LKeeler

Thanks Bill. The only scan was before I cracked. I didn't take one afterwards because the scanner at work probably hasn't been cleaned in 10 years! Yes, perhaps it did shift during it's travels but I am pretty confident that my packaging was up to snuff. Will keep you posted.

I'm saying a little prayer for ya, Luke. Here's hoping there's a simple explanation, that they goofed, and your card is ok.

[LKeeler]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I'm saying a little prayer for ya, Luke. Here's hoping there's a simple explanation, that they goofed, and your card is ok.

I hope so too, Bill. The photoshop images that you did were pretty cool, thanks!

[Moonlight Graham]

Luke, I know you wanted the whole set to be PSA graded, but I have to ask: why didn't you just send it in the SGC slab and go for a crossover? I know PSA may not have given it to you but then at the very least you would have been stuck with that beautiful 4 in a SGC slab, which, in my opinion looks really sharp. But I am sorry that it didn't work out for you and hopefully no damage was done to your card.
Joe

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I feel for you but this one of the risks of rolling the dice.


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[LKeeler]

Originally Posted by Moonlight Graham

Luke, I know you wanted the whole set to be PSA graded, but I have to ask: why didn't you just send it in the SGC slab and go for a crossover? I know PSA may not have given it to you but then at the very least you would have been stuck with that beautiful 4 in a SGC slab, which, in my opinion looks really sharp. But I am sorry that it didn't work out for you and hopefully no damage was done to your card.
Joe

Hi Joe. Yep, you are right. I typically send them in slabbed for a crossover, and the one time I didn't (on a high dollar card), BOOM! Right in the kisser. I was just certain it would come back at least a 4 as all my other Dockmans came back higher grade from PSA than when they left SGC (now I am really sounding like a Russian Roulette player!) Not to bring up a different debate on the board :-) but every time I have sent in a slabbed card to a different grader for a crossover, that grader wants to be "tough" and "the more stricter company" and the minimum grade (always the existing grade in place) is never met; as if they were wanting to prove a point. That just further makes the grading game frustrating, but at least it makes for constant conversation!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by LKeeler

Every time I have sent in a slabbed card to a different grader for a crossover, that grader wants to be "tough" and "the more stricter company" and the minimum grade (always the existing grade in place) is never met; as if they were wanting to prove a point.

My experience has been just the opposite with respect to PSA -> SGC crossovers. Some of my best PSA 4s have become SGC 60s. I never crack them out for just the reason you are experiencing in this case.

PSA and SGC grade caramels very differently, in my opinion. I suspect the PSA grader saw something like minor chipping or paper loss that the SGC folks recognize is typical of E92s and don't treat as strictly.

[Sean1125]

I always review 2-3 times in the current holder before cracking. When stuff like this happens cost still ends up being roughly the same.

[sycks22]

If you call up or e-mail PSA they won't give you an explanation on why the card didn't cross or why it got a 2. I've tried numerous times and they keep telling me that's now how they do business.

[ullmandds]

Bummer...definitely a head scratcher to me?! PSA just wants more of your money...that's all!

[jhs5120]

I don't think there was any damaged caused in transit or cracking. In my experience PSA is very strict on diamond cut/miscut cards, while SGC seems very lenient. I agree it isn't a "2", but I'm not surprised PSA docked you a couple points for it. I had an E92 with a similar cut get rejected by PSA 3 times before they eventually slabbed it.

It's a crap shoot.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I don't think there was any damaged caused in transit or cracking. In my experience PSA is very strict on diamond cut/miscut cards, while SGC seems very lenient. I agree it isn't a "2", but I'm not surprised PSA docked you a couple points for it. I had an E92 with a similar cut get rejected by PSA 3 times before they eventually slabbed it.



It's a crap shoot.

Sounds like you should just resubmit the card a few times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ullmandds]

[QUOTE=I Only Smoke 4 the Cards;1243241]Sounds like you should just resubmit the card a few times.


Pretty much!!! If you're going to participate in the "game"...what choice do you have but to keep playing!

[LKeeler]

Thanks guys! I agree totally. I hate to fudge up the pop reports, but I guess I will continue to play the game

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by LKeeler

Thanks guys! I agree totally. I hate to fudge up the pop reports, but I guess I will continue to play the game

You crack the card out of one holder and then state that you hate to fudge up the pop reports. Can you spell hypocrisy? Have you told the guy with the SGC 40 Wagner that your SGC 50 copy no longer exists? I doubt it.

[ullmandds]

Don't make Frank mad...you won't like Frank when he's mad!

[LKeeler]

[Don't make Frank mad...you won't like Frank when he's mad!r exists and ask if they would make the correct update. To me that seems more than fair, but I may be wrong.


+1

[E93]

I would call/email Joe Orlando with the attached scans ask if something happened to the card because a PSA 2 does not make sense - looks like a borderline 5.
JimB

[scotgreb]

Luke -

Not sure how you prepared the submission but if you specified "no qualifiers" and PSA deemed there to be a mark -- your PSA 2 might have really been a PSA 4(MK). Just a thought.

Scott

[LKeeler]

Originally Posted by E93

I would call/email Joe Orlando with the attached scans ask if something happened to the card because a PSA 2 does not make sense - looks like a borderline 5.
JimB

Thanks Jim. That's the gist of what I was wondering!

[LKeeler]

Originally Posted by scotgreb

Luke -

Not sure how you prepared the submission but if you specified "no qualifiers" and PSA deemed there to be a mark -- your PSA 2 might have really been a PSA 4(MK). Just a thought.

Scott

Thanks Scott. You have a point. Never thought of that.

[Piratedogcardshows]

Originally Posted by scotgreb

Luke -

Not sure how you prepared the submission but if you specified "no qualifiers" and PSA deemed there to be a mark -- your PSA 2 might have really been a PSA 4(MK). Just a thought.

Scott

I agree with this statement.There is what appears to be stray ink on the back in the left margin.

[LKeeler]

Originally Posted by Jason

I agree with this statement.There is what appears to be stray ink on the back in the left margin.

Thanks Jason. Yeah, I thought that it was perhaps some bleeding through from the front, but perhaps it is stray ink that is considered a qualification. Hmmm

[Piratedogcardshows]

Originally Posted by LKeeler

Thanks Jason. Yeah, I thought that it was perhaps some bleeding through from the front, but perhaps it is stray ink that is considered a qualification. Hmmm

It's still a beauty of a card and deserving of a higher grade.These graders can be fickle at times.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I think it's a speck of paperloss on the back in the word "Manufactured." The "M" is not complete. Blow up the scan and then look at it. You'll see what I am talking about.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by LKeeler

all my other Dockmans came back higher grade from PSA than when they left SGC

When you call about this card and ask for compensation you must also demand why the others graded higher and give them back some cash in return.

[LKeeler]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

When you call about this card and ask for compensation you must also demand why the others graded higher and give them back some cash in return.

Yeah David, I think you may be right. Sure appreciate all the opinions. Definitely appreciate all of the insight!

[ullmandds]

Wow...PSA usually doesn't see paper loss...let alone that small? MAybe they got their graders' eyes checked for x-mas this year?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

When you call about this card and ask for compensation you must also demand why the others graded higher and give them back some cash in return.

LOL Best post in the whole thread.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

When you call about this card and ask for compensation you must also demand why the others graded higher and give them back some cash in return.

This is almost funny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oldjudge]

Pretty nice 2

[scottglevy]

Perhaps just slightly off topic....but had a most unusual experience with PSA recently. A card that my dad and I sent to them (incidentally a T206 Tolstoi Cy Young) was listed in their grading report as Evid Trim.

Some cards are borderline instances but there is NO WAY that this card was trimmed. My dad called them immediately and asked for them to provide a more detailed explanation for their grading opinion before sending the card back (e.g. where was it trimmed, etc).

PSA agreed to do so and in their evaluation changed their grade to 4.5. I have to say that I'm really impressed by the willingness to admit they made a mistake and then rectify it.

[Bridwell]

I've had 3 situations where a nice card with no creases came back as a PSA 2. All three times it turned out there was a small amount of glue residue on the back. If you can feel the glue residue, or see a shiny area on the back then that is your problem. It is likely to keep coming back as a PSA 2 if re-submitted.

Once I got lucky and was able to wet the card and rub off the residue. The card came back as a PSA 6.

[LKeeler]

Originally Posted by scotgreb

Luke -

Not sure how you prepared the submission but if you specified "no qualifiers" and PSA deemed there to be a mark -- your PSA 2 might have really been a PSA 4(MK). Just a thought.

Scott

Ding, ding, ding. This appears to be the winning answer! PSA was very quick in responding to my inquiry so kudos to good customer service.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by LKeeler

Ding, ding, ding. This appears to be the winning answer! PSA was very quick in responding to my inquiry so kudos to good customer service.

I thought that marks on cards were qualifiers that could not be removed from the flip for PSA.

[scotgreb]

What did I win?

Gary - you can always request no qualifiers -- after that, I'm not sure the specifics of PSA's procedures. I believe that it is generally a 2-point downgrade for mid and higher grade cards -- although I'm not sure it applies to 9s and 10s. Lower grade (PSA 3 and below) I believe it is a 1-point downgrade.

Scott

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by glchen

I thought that marks on cards were qualifiers that could not be removed from the flip for PSA.

That was my understanding as well. I think there is some confustion between PSA and Luke.

Besides, what appears to be a mark (at least what I'm looking at) is just a WST and I've never seen one of those get a MK qualifier anyway.

[MattyC]

You can request no qualifiers when you submit.

If the card then has what they deem a qualifier, there will be a point deduction, in lieu of MK, ST, OC, etc.

[j_cook]

I just think PSA is very strict in general when it comes to their grades compared with other companies. I guess it is why people tend to pay top dollar for PSA graded cards, but it can be frustrating sometimes when sending raw cards in to be graded yourself.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by j_cook

i just think psa is very strict in general when it comes to their grades compared with other companies. I guess it is why people tend to pay top dollar for psa graded cards, but it can be frustrating sometimes when sending raw cards in to be graded yourself.

really?

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by j_cook

I just think PSA is very strict in general when it comes to their grades compared with other companies. I guess it is why people tend to pay top dollar for PSA graded cards, but it can be frustrating sometimes when sending raw cards in to be graded yourself.

Hmmmmm

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by j_cook

I just think PSA is very strict in general when it comes to their grades compared with other companies. I guess it is why people tend to pay top dollar for PSA graded cards, but it can be frustrating sometimes when sending raw cards in to be graded yourself.

You're kidding, right?!

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by j_cook

I just think PSA is very strict in general when it comes to their grades compared with other companies. I guess it is why people tend to pay top dollar for PSA graded cards, but it can be frustrating sometimes when sending raw cards in to be graded yourself.

You may want to check out this thread:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=NAMES

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

You may want to check out this thread:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=NAMES

Do you think his name is needed? Unless I'm missing something...

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Do you think his name is needed? Unless I'm missing something...

Yes. He is giving his opinion of a business.

Originally Posted by Leon

"If you give an opinion of a person or company your full name needs to be in your post."
.