Alert: a tale of two 51B Mantles

[Peter_Spaeth]

Same serial number, but.... well, you judge.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281855919203...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[bn2cardz]

The importance of looking at the bar code. Because one of those bar codes doesn't work.

[jb67]

While I am no expert it appears to be a totally different card than the Huggins-Scott auction. First thing that jumped out at me was the dash between the VG -EX is a different size. Something just not right with this one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a fake in my opinion, for the reasons stated and others, but the question is, will ebay step up and do something about it or just pretend to "investigate"?

[Stonepony]

Yowz, 2 different cards and 2 different flips

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Same serial number, but.... well, you judge.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281855919203...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Quite scary and moved from the 1950s section for a bit more exposure.

[Rookiemonster]

Wow I guess there just print mantle rookie like 1989 UD ken Griffey JR .
I'm impressed by the effort here . Do you think this was a inside job ?
It's gotta be right . Anyway this can't be a one of a kind and it can't just be mantle

[CMIZ5290]

My opinion, not the same card at all. The biggest telling sign is the drastic diamond cut on the bottom that the other does not have, also the sharpness of the bottom right corner. Secondly, Ebay won't do s**t, just my thought....

[Sophiedog]

The bottom one has a spot on his hat and a rough cut on the bottom of the card; so 2 different cards but same flip #. So if I'm understanding this right one of the flips is a fake?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Sophiedog

The bottom one has a spot on his hat and a rough cut on the bottom of the card; so 2 different cards but same flip #. So if I'm understanding this right one of the flips is a fake?

The ebay one, I believe. Welcome to the era of laser printing.

[Sophiedog]

No telling how many other high dollar cards are out there with the bad flips. Explains the new PSA cases with the hologram. Good find.

[Edward]

stone crab hasn't pulled it yet......must be legit.......or just a case of stone crab plausible deniability......

[nhsportsguy]

Listing has been reported (probably by several people), so we'll see what happens.

[pokerplyr80]

They certainly did a better job with the case and flip than the card in my opinion but it looks like it's good enough to fool most bidders. I don't know if every 51 bowman mantle has it, but I always look for what resembles a blue pen mark in the upper right corner above the bat. I see the real card has it in this case and the fake one doesn't. The same mark is on mine and a few others I checked right now out of curiosity on ebay.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

They certainly did a better job with the case and flip than the card in my opinion but it looks like it's good enough to fool most bidders. I don't know if every 51 bowman mantle has it, but I always look for what resembles a blue pen mark in the upper right corner above the bat. I see the real card has it in this case and the fake one doesn't. The same mark is on mine and a few others I checked right now out of curiosity on ebay.

The fake one has it, just lighter. Look closely.


How to tell the fake? The short dash on the flip helps and for some reason the bar code wasn't copied. Is there an app for bar codes?

[Prof_Plum]

When I used the online barcode reader (at http://online-barcode-reader.inliter...m/default.aspx), both barcodes came back with the correct number (17934999). The HS card's code type was "Interleaved2of5". The Ebay card's code type was "Code128". I have no idea what that barcode type stuff relates to.

From a google search....among other things...Code128 types are for alpha-numeric, all ASCII characters and used world-wide; interleaved2of5 are numeric only encoding digits in pairs

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Prof_Plum

When I used the online barcode reader (at http://online-barcode-reader.inliter...m/default.aspx), both barcodes came back with the correct number (17934999). The HS card's code type was "Interleaved2of5". The Ebay card's code type was "Code128". I have no idea what that barcode type stuff relates to.

That is awesome and very informative.......except I have no idea what that really means.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The backs, Huggins on the left.

[jcc6252]

50/50 chance it's a PSA labeling error, but good work Pete.
Here's a card with a short hyphen in "VG-EX".

[glynparson]

The non huggins and scott card looks bogus from these pics as does the flip.

[jb67]

Originally Posted by jcc6252

50/50 chance it's a PSA labeling error, but good work Pete.
Here's a card with a short hyphen in "VG-EX".

Good work on posting the card with the short hyphen. There are no spaces before and after the hyphen on the card you posted. The Ebay card has spaces. Maybe PSA has printed labels using spaces along with not using spaces with the short hyphen. Maybe someone can add more in regards to PSA label printing. I know they have changed several times over the years.

[CW]

The short hyphen card that Jim posted is also the old flip, so it's a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. Also, a PSA labeling error is more akin to a typo or mislabeled issue. It would be nearly impossible and a complete coincidence for PSA to assign the same SN to the same exact card. It is much more likely that the eBay card is a fake or lower grade card inside a compromised holder. The eBay card shows a good deal of frosting on the edges of the holder as well.

[pawpawdiv9]

Yeah, he looks also a bit sun-burned in the color tone.

[Jobu]

Stuff like this scares the shite out of me, especially as I have been considering getting a 51 Mantle. Thanks for posting it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jobu

Stuff like this scares the shite out of me, especially as I have been considering getting a 51 Mantle. Thanks for posting it.

One of the more noxious forms of hobby fraud, though of course far from the only one. Restores your faith in humanity, doesn't it?

[steve B]

Unfortunately it's nothing new especially with this card.

In I think 1982 maybe 81 a dealer I know showed me a 51 Mantle and asked me what I thought about it. After a few minutes of looking at it I said "It's in beautiful condition, but it's fake. I can't put my finger on anything in particular, but it's just "wrong" "

Apparently that was the opinion of the dealer and also of the 4-5 other dealers who had passed on buying it earlier. Nobody could point to anything and say "it's fake because of this. " but everyone thought it was fake.

I wonder where that card is today, it was very convincing, and if it wasn't for being able to handle stacks of Bowmans pretty much everywhere back then it might not be obvious.

Steve B

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by steve B

Unfortunately it's nothing new especially with this card.

In I think 1982 maybe 81 a dealer I know showed me a 51 Mantle and asked me what I thought about it. After a few minutes of looking at it I said "It's in beautiful condition, but it's fake. I can't put my finger on anything in particular, but it's just "wrong" "

Apparently that was the opinion of the dealer and also of the 4-5 other dealers who had passed on buying it earlier. Nobody could point to anything and say "it's fake because of this. " but everyone thought it was fake.

I wonder where that card is today, it was very convincing, and if it wasn't for being able to handle stacks of Bowmans pretty much everywhere back then it might not be obvious.

Steve B

you would think that there are flips that look exactly like the original..it seems everyone is counting on the font being different or hyphen but we all know there will be exact lookalikes of the flip eventually...the card will never be exactly alike but its obvious there are graded cards out there that will be impossible to tell on the internet that people are buying that are fakes

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281855919203...torefresh=true

[ezez420]

This looks like the same jerkoff that I posted about a few weeks ago. I recollect the picture he took of the fake card last time was on that same book/ipad case.




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[Stonepony]

What a shame for the buyer. I don't buy into the thoughts of " they got what they deserved for being naive about cards". These are sophisticated scams. I hope I'm not next.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's pretty stupid to buy a 5K card from a guy with essentially no feedback except on a couple of low dollar items, but still, that does not excuse fraud.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's pretty stupid to buy a 5K card from a guy with essentially no feedback except on a couple of low dollar items, but still, that does not excuse fraud.

Agree buying by from a low feedback seller is risky ( as for stupid...a lot of stupid people bought some amazing cards from me when I got back on eBay several years ago), but a card like this may eventually end up being offered by a more seasoned seller....idk....it's scary

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

Agree buying by from a low feedback seller is risky ( as for stupid...a lot of stupid people bought some amazing cards from me when I got back on eBay several years ago), but a card like this may eventually end up being offered by a more seasoned seller....idk....it's scary

Guy has sold some $10 commons but now all of the sudden has a 5K Mantle card? People need to apply reason.

[Jobu]

He did also sell a 56 Topps set for $1900, though how many of those are fake I have no idea.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

What a shame for the buyer. I don't buy into the thoughts of " they got what they deserved for being naive about cards". These are sophisticated scams. I hope I'm not next.

It's too bad there isn't way to get a message to the winner. 5k is a lot for a fake that certainly fooled quite a few people. I doubt the buyer would even think to send this one into PSA for verification and will most likely have no recourse after the fraud is discovered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It's too bad there isn't way to get a message to the winner. 5k is a lot for a fake that certainly fooled quite a few people. I doubt the buyer would even think to send this one into PSA for verification and will most likely have no recourse after the fraud is discovered.

No can do, thanks to ebay making everything invisible. Ebay does not seem interested in preventing fraud.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No can do, thanks to ebay making everything invisible. Ebay does not seem interested in preventing fraud.

if fake ones go for 4800 (and many people didn't bid cause they knew it was fake) I wonder how much a real psa 4 goes for on ebay....no need to quote other AHs....just wondering at the next PWCC auction etc..

[Rookiemonster]

Jordan rookie must be so easy to does this with . Some of those fakes are really really good .

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

if fake ones go for 4800 (and many people didn't bid cause they knew it was fake) I wonder how much a real psa 4 goes for on ebay....no need to quote other AHs....just wondering at the next PWCC auction etc..

That was a dead centered fake 4. A dead centered real one in a pwcc I would say 6k give or take

[ezez420]

It happens with Mantle Rc, Jordan Rcs, Cobbs, Wagners, Ruths, Montana & Rice RCs. To name a few.


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[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ezez420

It happens with Mantle Rc, Jordan Rcs, Cobbs, Wagners, Ruths, Montana & Rice RCs. To name a few.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

man so now if I want to buy waterfront properties..some of these homes aren't even real? not even the toilets..that sucks..

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The backs, Huggins on the left.

Isn't the whiteness in the upper left corner of the eBay card a tell that it is fake? Should the card stock be that white under the gray?

[Prof_Plum]

Originally Posted by Prof_Plum

When I used the online barcode reader (at http://online-barcode-reader.inliter...m/default.aspx), both barcodes came back with the correct number (17934999). The HS card's code type was "Interleaved2of5". The Ebay card's code type was "Code128". I have no idea what that barcode type stuff relates to.

From a google search....among other things...Code128 types are for alpha-numeric, all ASCII characters and used world-wide; interleaved2of5 are numeric only encoding digits in pairs

Turns out PSA uses interleaved2of5 type for their barcodes. So the Ebay flip with the barcode using code128 type is bogus, which is pretty much what we've decided within this thread anyway.

So when checking barcodes against cert numbers, make sure the barcode not only matches the cert number but it is also of type "interleaved2of5".

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Guy has sold some $10 commons but now all of the sudden has a 5K Mantle card? People need to apply reason.

Nailed it, Pete, but it is very scary. Way to be on the lookout.

Highest regards,

Larry

[slidekellyslide]

Didn't we have some members here who could get an ebay auction shut down? What happened there?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Didn't we have some members here who could get an ebay auction shut down? What happened there?

It's worthless to try. I told Joe Orlando who says he told ebay, still no action was taken.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's worthless to try. I told Joe Orlando who says he told ebay, still no action was taken.

I find this statement very concerning. It's one thing when some random people report a card as fraud. Although a lot of you guys are obviously experts ebay doesn't know that. But to have essentially the head of PSA tell them a card is a fraud and they still let someone spend 5k on it? Not good.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I find this statement very concerning. It's one thing when some random people report a card as fraud. Although a lot of you guys are obviously experts ebay doesn't know that. But to have essentially the head of PSA tell them a card is a fraud and they still let someone spend 5k on it? Not good.

its an easy lawsuit against ebay if that happens and the card is fake...and the buyer cant collect back from the seller he could go after ebay

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

its an easy lawsuit against ebay if that happens and the card is fake...and the buyer cant collect back from the seller he could go after ebay

good luck "going after ebay."

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

good luck "going after ebay."

man ebay is the juiciest thing around ..not sure why you made that comment...you should mean 'good luck going after poor guy that sells fake cards that's a criminal' you can find MANY lawyers that will sue ebay on a slam dunk case.....next you will say good luck going after Wal-Mart because they are such a big company.....its exactly the opposite the bigger the company the more likely you can find a lawyer who will take his or her chances..

there have been class actions against ebay...