Bidding Strangeness - More Probstein123

[T206Collector]

Don't get me wrong, I love that I finally won a nice T206 Hal Chase Trophy SGC 60 for what I believe to be a very good price last night - $170.50. But check this out....

05/25/2014

Same card sold for $252.00 to "O***B (945)"

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Last night, the same dude "O***B (945)" bid $135 for the same card I just won last night:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

And here's a kicker -- in the first auction in May, "O***B (945)" also started his bidding activity with a $135 bid.

The easy money is on this being a shill. Frankly, I'd love to hear plausible alternative explanations. But, if it is indeed a shill, it certainly isn't a very good job. He left bids of $216.55 and $260 on the table from last time.

Not sure there is anything formal to be done about this, but I would certainly take final prices seen in Probstein123 auctions with a grain of salt. And, I would adjust my final bids accordingly, as I did successfully in this case.

Oh, and my name is P.au1 M.if5u.d.

[markf31]

Never mind the man behind the curtain.

I'm willing to take wagers on how long it takes the usual apologists to defend yet another Probstein auction and about how these threads are useless because they "accomplish nothing".

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by markf31

Never mind the man behind the curtain.

I'm willing to take wagers on how long it takes the usual apologists to defend yet another Probstein auction and about how these threads are useless because they "accomplish nothing".

yup

Bidding on a probstein auction is like swimming with sharks...you may not get bitten...but there is a good chance you will!

[jhs5120]

It certainly looks like the guy placed a bid on his own consignment. It's peculiar that he placed such a low amount that wouldn't have won the auction in any case. As if he wanted to still be a shilling jerk, but wanted to be a useless shilling jerk.

If you look at other items he's bid on it seems as though he placed a few other "safety" bids on Probstein auctions and didn't win any of them. I guess this is the risk of bidding in an auction :/

It would be interesting to know if this was a forum member.

[T206Collector]

How do you see the other items he's bid on?

[Peter_Spaeth]

At that price level, he was just bumping it along, not seriously shilling it.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

How do you see the other items he's bid on?

Right now all you can see is his bid history: Link


Probstein should be "Seller 10" on this list and you can see he placed a single bid on several items early in the auction and none of them won.

If you want to find specific items you need to go to Probstein's completed listings (last night's listings aren't available at the time of this post). I have consigned with Probstein on a couple occasions and he will always lists/ends your items within a minute of each other. So, you can look at the completed listings immediately before the Hal Chase and immediately after and find the other items this particular person consigned. Then, you can find out if he shilled any of them (which his bid history indicates he might have).

Once you know what cards he consigned and what cards he bought it may be fairly easy to find out the name of the person. Especially if they're all tobacco cards.

Hopefully it isn't a forum member!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

At that price level, he was just bumping it along, not seriously shilling it.

Is this new shilling verbage? Bumping it along...is this accceptable behavior?

Now we're just categorizing degrees of crookery?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Is this new shilling verbage? Bumping it along...is this accceptable behavior?

Now we're just categorizing degrees of crookery?

It's like going 56 in a 55 MPH zone or going 75. Both are illegal, but....

[cincyredlegs]

First off, very nice Chase. I saw that card last night and was going to bid until I saw it was Probstein. He had several really nice T206's but I just can't bear to bid on any of his auctions. For me, it's just the principle.

Mark

[sbfinley]

I'm not trying to be an apologist for Probstein (although sometimes I am), but I try to look at it this way:

If I ran my own eBay consignment company that had 500-1000 auctions going off weekly and almost a million in sales quarterly how many of these questions would I honestly answer yes to?

1. I would myself or salary someone to check all completed auctions for suspicious bidding.

2. I would alert bidders/auction winners about suspicious bidding.

3. I would prevent cosigners I believe are shilling from consigning in the future.

4. I would prevent auction winners from immediately consigning their winnings with me.

5. I would not provide my top customers with additional information such as scans or opinions on which cards might be worth a crack and re-submit.

Personally,

1. Probably not. It's a waste of time and resources to police a problem eBay poured gas on by instituting anonymous bidding.

2. Yes would be the ethical thing to say, but the can of worms opened in the process would probably be to much deal with.

3. The only question I could unequivocally agree I would do.

4. No, I'm in the business of selling cards and making money.

5. I would not go out of the way to do so, but if a customer who payed my mortgage the month before requested additional information I would make sure he/she received it.

[hangman62]

I agree

how about...don't bid on his stuff..if your uncomfortable with it

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Is this new shilling verbage? Bumping it along...is this accceptable behavior?

Now we're just categorizing degrees of crookery?

This was only misdemeanor shilling - not felony shilling.

[markf31]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

If I ran my own eBay consignment company that had 500-1000 auctions going off weekly...

Business volume should not dictate ethics. Period.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

I'm not trying to be an apologist for Probstein (although sometimes I am), but I try to look at it this way:

If I ran my own eBay consignment company that had 500-1000 auctions going off weekly and almost a million in sales quarterly how many of these questions would I honestly answer yes to?

1. I would myself or salary someone to check all completed auctions for suspicious bidding.

2. I would alert bidders/auction winners about suspicious bidding.

3. I would prevent cosigners I believe are shilling from consigning in the future.

4. I would prevent auction winners from immediately consigning their winnings with me.

5. I would not provide my top customers with additional information such as scans or opinions on which cards might be worth a crack and re-submit.

Personally,

1. Probably not. It's a waste of time and resources to police a problem eBay poured gas on by instituting anonymous bidding.

2. Yes would be the ethical thing to say, but the can of worms opened in the process would probably be to much deal with.

3. The only question I could unequivocally agree I would do.

4. No, I'm in the business of selling cards and making money.

5. I would not go out of the way to do so, but if a customer who payed my mortgage the month before requested additional information I would make sure he/she received it.

How about:

6. Someone tells you what is happening with a specific auction and there is verifiable proof that a specific consignor has shill bid one or more auctions.

Tom C

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

How about:

6. Someone tells you what is happening with a specific auction and there is verifiable proof that a specific consignor has shill bid one or more auctions.

Tom C

Exactly! I don't think anybody realistically expects Probstein to police his own auctions, but I do think people expect to see something done when he's provided proof that his consignors are shilling.

If he would do something about it, he would earn my respect and my business. Until then, I'll stay away from his auctions.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

This was only misdemeanor shilling - not felony shilling.

nice!

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Exactly! I don't think anybody realistically expects Probstein to police his own auctions, but I do think people expect to see something done when he's provided proof that his consignors are shilling.

If he would do something about it, he would earn my respect and my business. Until then, I'll stay away from his auctions.

Not to defend anyone, I'm just curious. I'm assuming you're talking about Joe P., has anyone been following his activity recently? I haven't. I'm curious to know if he's still at large.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Not to defend anyone, I'm just curious. I'm assuming you're talking about Joe P., has anyone been following his activity recently? I haven't. I'm curious to know if he's still at large.

Yes, mostly Joe P. No, I haven't been following his activity since eBay made it much harder by hiding usernames. However, there have been other consignors as well (such as the one the OP listed) that have been brought to Rick's attention, and he's failed to do anything about it.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by markf31

Business volume should not dictate ethics. Period.

It shouldn't, but I'm also a realist. Do I believe some of his auctions are shilled? Duh. Do I believe he is cognizant of the fact? Absolutely. Do I think it's his responsibility to do everything within his power to stop it? No. Collectors want to throw people like him under the bus because of a problem eBay magnified with anonymous bidding. Instead of "I avoid Probstein auctions" it should be "I avoid eBay" if you're all that worried about the ethics of buying and selling collectibles. If you want to close yourself off to the largest majority of the market (eBay) more power to you. I'll just worry about what I'm willing to pay, not what I end up paying because some dirtbag cosigner shills his own items. The guy is making a good living selling sports cards. Wish I could say the same.

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

How about:

6. Someone tells you what is happening with a specific auction and there is verifiable proof that a specific consignor has shill bid one or more auctions.

Tom C

That would fall under #3. Consigner wouldn't be conducting business with me in the future.

[jbbama]

i get pissed off when i see a card i want is his.......i refuse to bid. This shilling , or "bumping along" is a violation of TOS and shenanigans like this are all too common place with old Proby.

[chernieto]

I feel for the OP who bought the card for more than 32% less than the last time Rick sold it....This criminal activity is so________, .
.
Rightly or wrongly I like a bidding environment where a 32%+ lower price can be had in comparison to the previous sell through price. there were 4 other bidders who were higher than the consignors shill bid.
Rick should let those who consign know that they should never bid on their own items. Seems obvious.
Maybe I shouldn't have removed my name from the Legendary auction bidder and mailing list after all. It seems they were able to keep prices more stable

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by chernieto

I feel for the OP who bought the card for more than 32% less than the last time Rick sold it.

I obviously still will participate in auctions run by Probstein123. However, I am also keenly aware that he has a problem policing consignor shilling. So, I always take a close look at the prior market. Before I even bid I recognized that he was selling the same card that sold several weeks ago again, so I kept my ceiling bid low and it just happened to hit. And then after I purchased it, I noticed that the same guy who won it weeks ago also bid in this one. So, it was pretty obvious to me what was going on. And given the concerns that a number of people on Net54 have with this seller, I thought it prudent to share. Because I think that educating us about the practices of certain sellers is a great function of Net54. How we each react to the information is a personal decision.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I obviously still will participate in auctions run by Probstein123. However, I am also keenly aware that he has a problem policing consignor shilling. So, I always take a close look at the prior market. Before I even bid I recognized that he was selling the same card that sold several weeks ago again, so I kept my ceiling bid low and it just happened to hit. And then after I purchased it, I noticed that the same guy who won it weeks ago also bid in this one. So, it was pretty obvious to me what was going on. And given the concerns that a number of people on Net54 have with this seller, I thought it prudent to share. Because I think that educating us about the practices of certain sellers is a great function of Net54. How we each react to the information is a personal decision.

...and all this information is greatly appreciated - Thanks

[Centauri]

When on eBay, I bid the price I am willing to pay. Sometimes I win, a lot of times I don't. I pretty much assume every auction has shills - it is too easy to do, and difficult to police.

I have gotten some pretty sweet deals with Probstein. If the price is fair, the shipping safe and timely, and the goods as advertised, that is good enough for me.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Centauri

When on eBay, I bid the price I am willing to pay. Sometimes I win, a lot of times I don't. I pretty much assume every auction has shills - it is too easy to do, and difficult to police.

I have gotten some pretty sweet deals with Probstein. If the price is fair, the shipping safe and timely, and the goods as advertised, that is good enough for me.

+1. It's hard to get taken if you simply bid what you're willing to pay, and have an awareness of the fair market value. Is there an entitlement to a bargain price, where the bidding putters out at a figure well below fair market value? True bargains on really rare and significant items simply don't come along very often. As we've discussed before, more than one major auction house has permitted shill bids to "Cha-Ching" an item to a higher level, up to but not exceeding a max bid, where the confidentiality of the maximum bid was not respected.

Interesting issue,

Larry

[Econteachert205]

When I worked at a local auction, some consigners would shill bid on items. For the auctioneer, who was a real honest guy, it was a helpless situation because the consigners were also buyers and to lose those customers on both ends in a small auction would have severely hurt. For bigger online auctions, I just don't understand why they don't have higher reserves, it would eliminate some of the more obvious shill bids

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

+1. It's hard to get taken if you simply bid what you're willing to pay, and have an awareness of the fair market value. Is there an entitlement to a bargain price, where the bidding putters out at a figure well below fair market value? True bargains on really rare and significant items simply don't come along very often. As we've discussed before, more than one major auction house has permitted shill bids to "Cha-Ching" an item to a higher level, up to but not exceeding a max bid, where the confidentiality of the maximum bid was not respected.



Interesting issue,



Larry

This horse has been beat to death in previous threads, but you're missing the fact that shilling artificially increases "fair market value." Shilling frauds honest collectors both directly and indirectly.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

+1. It's hard to get taken if you simply bid what you're willing to pay, and have an awareness of the fair market value.

Except that your perception of fair market is inflated because of rampant shilling and fraud.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Except that your perception of fair market is inflated because of rampant shilling and fraud.

This is a good potential example of that except the consignor/shiller was a bit daft. He set a high price with his first "win" but nobody who helped get his number so high came back last night.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

Except that your perception of fair market is inflated because of rampant shilling and fraud.

yeah...that's the whole point here!!!!

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I obviously still will participate in auctions run by Probstein123. However, I am also keenly aware that he has a problem policing consignor shilling. So, I always take a close look at the prior market. Before I even bid I recognized that he was selling the same card that sold several weeks ago again, so I kept my ceiling bid low and it just happened to hit. And then after I purchased it, I noticed that the same guy who won it weeks ago also bid in this one. So, it was pretty obvious to me what was going on. And given the concerns that a number of people on Net54 have with this seller, I thought it prudent to share. Because I think that educating us about the practices of certain sellers is a great function of Net54. How we each react to the information is a personal decision.

I appreciate your sharing and awareness to call out the consignors shilling which many of us would have missed!

[kamikidEFFL]

I've purchased some cards from him and I have looked at who's bidding but seems I'm getting very reasonable prices and the shipping is super fast. Idk maybe I'm missing something here

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by kamikidEFFL

I've purchased some cards from him and I have looked at who's bidding but seems I'm getting very reasonable prices and the shipping is super fast. Idk maybe I'm missing something here

I've only made 1 purchase from him that I can remember (actually it was 3 different T213s all won within about 4 minutes of each other). I thought the ending prices were pretty good and you're right about the fast shipping.

I don't doubt the evidence people have put forth regarding shill bidding in his auctions. I'm just saying that my experience was a good one.

[Exhibitman]

Call it whatever you want--safety bid, hidden reserve, shilling--it is all wrong, all criminal behavior. No different than what Mark Theotikos just pleaded guilty to doing. It hurts the winners of the inflated lots, it hurts the data compilers and commentators like me who rely on final values for market analysis, and it hurts the honest auctioneers who cannot compete with the results of shilled auctions when trying to lure consignments.

As far as I am concerned Probstein is no different than a fence. Just because he isn't doing the stealing himself--just providing a ready market for the crooks to operate in while he turns a blind eye to the thievery even when it is brought to his attention--doesn't relieve him of culpability. Or let me put it another way: as one of the biggest sellers on eBay, do you really believe that Probstein could not complain to eBay about these shenanigans and get some real action on this issue, get some bidders banned, perhaps even convince eBay that it needs to push the FBI to open a criminal investigation? But he won't as long as the bidders keep bidding and the money keeps churning. He'll just shrug and say he is powerless while all the while profiting from the illegality. And there is the key to it all: you want change, don't ask for it from the people who profit from the fraud, hit them where it hurts instead: stop doing business with people whose business ethics sicken you. We shouldn't be seeing any more of these "I bid with Probstein; look at the shilling" threads. And this is not a specific shot at the OP, so please don't take it that way, more a general observation that no one who cares about Probstein's auction issues has any business doing business with him.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Call it whatever you want--safety bid, hidden reserve, shilling--it is all wrong, all criminal behavior. No different than what Mark Theotikos just pleaded guilty to doing. It hurts the winners of the inflated lots, it hurts the data compilers and commentators like me who rely on final values for market analysis, and it hurts the honest auctioneers who cannot compete with the results of shilled auctions when trying to lure consignments.

As far as I am concerned Probstein is no different than a fence. Just because he isn't doing the stealing himself--just providing a ready market for the crooks to operate in while he turns a blind eye to the thievery even when it is brought to his attention--doesn't relieve him of culpability. Or let me put it another way: as one of the biggest sellers on eBay, do you really believe that Probstein could not complain to eBay about these shenanigans and get some real action on this issue, get some bidders banned, perhaps even convince eBay that it needs to push the FBI to open a criminal investigation? But he won't as long as the bidders keep bidding and the money keeps churning. He'll just shrug and say he is powerless while all the while profiting from the illegality. And there is the key to it all: you want change, don't ask for it from the people who profit from the fraud, hit them where it hurts instead: stop doing business with people whose business ethics sicken you. We shouldn't be seeing any more of these "I bid with Probstein; look at the shilling" threads. And this is not a specific shot at the OP, so please don't take it that way, more a general observation that no one who cares about Probstein's auction issues has any business doing business with him.

Well said.. I'm just curious, I wonder how many threads have been on this forum pertaining Probstein?? A hundred? Bottom line, if you are uncomfortable, leave his auctions alone... This topic goes on constantly pertaining Auction houses...Probstein, PWCC, Heritage, Legendary, Sportscards Plus, Mile High, etc...It just goes on and on, and then some...What do we attain from it all?