Not O/T - Does Marriage Counseling Work?

[wolterse]

Gents -

As we are all aware, this is a HUGE month on the auction block. I've spent many hours combing through numerous catalogs and web pages carefully selecting those lots that fit - oh so well - into my pre-war collection. Visions and feelings of anticipation, adrenaline, and anxiety flowing through my mind and body as I see the clock strike zero to declare me the winner. Hooray!

Yes, this is my goal. Yet, I've run into a bit of a roadblock.

My wife.

I brought all my finanial data to lunch with us on Saturday. I explained how everything would flow - our savings plan, her investment priorities, and my hobby 'stash' - into a plan that we could both agree to. And I got hobby stash budget approved. Yes! Here I come...but not so fast.

My wife tells me yesterday - 'Erich, you say baseball cards are an investment (yes, that's how I position it to her - I could never get away with spending the money I do by saying this is a hobby!). Well I need you to prove it to me. If I'm going to allow you to spend X over the next couple weeks, than I need you to prove to me that it is a good investment for us. If it is, then I'll support your decision 100%. If it's not, then I'm going to dramatically decrease the amount of dollars I allow you to spend on your cards!'



I've been asked to present my 'findings' on the value that my current collection has increased over the past couple years. I need to benchmark it against (S&P500?) some baseline so I can demonstrate how well we're doing and why I deserve to spend my 'stash' this month.

A few questions for the board:
1) How would you position your stash budget to someone that doesn't 'get' why we love this hobby so much? Someone who only sees how much I spend and rolls their eyes.
2) Do I use VCP to value my cards, find trends, asking prices, and compare that to what I paid?
3) How do I benchmark my collection against a baseline that my wife would understand? S&P500 is down 10% from 2 years ago. I'm confident my collection is outpacing this metric. This could really make me look good!
4) Any other advice and wisdom would be helpful.

Yours in collecting,
Erich

Same problem here till I started to sell parts of the collection to focus on others, with the ocassional flip here and there. When she seen that the money was coming back the same or more and sometimes drastically more it all stopped. If I asked her for all the CC in the house to buy one card to flip or for the collection she ask what it is and looks at it wth me. We discuss it and then 99% of the time I buy the cards/s in question. Wish you well on this journey.

[jboosted92]

Originally Posted by wolterse

Gents -

As we are all aware, this is a HUGE month on the auction block. I've spent many hours combing through numerous catalogs and web pages carefully selecting those lots that fit - oh so well - into my pre-war collection. Visions and feelings of anticipation, adrenaline, and anxiety flowing through my mind and body as I see the clock strike zero to declare me the winner. Hooray!

Yes, this is my goal. Yet, I've run into a bit of a roadblock.

My wife.

I brought all my finanial data to lunch with us on Saturday. I explained how everything would flow - our savings plan, her investment priorities, and my hobby 'stash' - into a plan that we could both agree to. And I got hobby stash budget approved. Yes! Here I come...but not so fast.

My wife tells me yesterday - 'Erich, you say baseball cards are an investment (yes, that's how I position it to her - I could never get away with spending the money I do by saying this is a hobby!). Well I need you to prove it to me. If I'm going to allow you to spend X over the next couple weeks, than I need you to prove to me that it is a good investment for us. If it is, then I'll support your decision 100%. If it's not, then I'm going to dramatically decrease the amount of dollars I allow you to spend on your cards!'



I've been asked to present my 'findings' on the value that my current collection has increased over the past couple years. I need to benchmark it against (S&P500?) some baseline so I can demonstrate how well we're doing and why I deserve to spend my 'stash' this month.

A few questions for the board:
1) How would you position your stash budget to someone that doesn't 'get' why we love this hobby so much? Someone who only sees how much I spend and rolls their eyes.
2) Do I use VCP to value my cards, find trends, asking prices, and compare that to what I paid?
3) How do I benchmark my collection against a baseline that my wife would understand? S&P500 is down 10% from 2 years ago. I'm confident my collection is outpacing this metric. This could really make me look good!
4) Any other advice and wisdom would be helpful.

Yours in collecting,
Erich

I provide the only income in the house.....i cant offer any good advice, unless you are the sole provider

[Section103]

From the outside, you can't understand it. From the inside, you can't explain it.

Tracking the S&P, DJ or any financial index is a piece of cake. You almost cant "not be able to do it". It's the tracking of your collection that is usually difficult, time-consuming, and sketchily accurate.

[D. Broughman]

I think Andrew hit it on the head. You have to get her involved and let her know her input is important to you. I took my wife with me to antique shops and auctions and showed her things I thought where good to buy but let her make the call. We bought some and then looked them up and the value was higher. Now I have to watch her with the auction card she wants to buy but don't know the value.

[bwiller]

Hey Erich, see if this blog post I wrote will help you: Sports Card Index

[bigtrain]

Been married 29 years and I have spent lots of money on my collection over the years. A lot of items have doubled or tripled in value, very few are worth less than I paid. I don't think it would matter to my wife if I didn't make a nickel on my collection. She has never complained or questioned my judgment on financing my collection. Not because I am always right, not because I never make a mistake, not because I am the primary "breadwinner". She supports my hobby because it makes me happy and that makes me easier to live with. I have never seen my collection as an investment. I invest in stocks, mutual funds and real estate. Being a successful investor may make me happy but owning shares of Apple or Cisco or whatever will never give me the joy of owning a Babe Ruth autograph or a T206 Drum back. To me, treating my collection as an investment would take some of the joy out of it. I would worry too much about losing value. I prefer to spend what I can afford but never spend more than I can afford to lose.

[M's_Fan]

One of the most important factors to explain is liquidity and "exit strategy."

Explain how easy it would be to consign your cards to be sold, or sell yourself on eBay.

Also explain how inflation is likely hitting some day soon, and physical assets will be a good place to be.

[scooter729]

Erich,

How about you get some shills in the crowd to send bogus emails to you, offering 2x-3x what you paid for items in your collection??

Nah, I would say just show her some VCP prices to show what you could get for some of your items if you wanted to sell. It's hard to market to a non-collector how this could be better than a mutual fund portfolio for your investment dollar, but hopefully as your wife she'll be supportive of you!

[bbcard1]

Don't you guys just find a way to hide a little stash to spend on your cards? I usually stash my travel $. I have also planted clues to convince her that I have a raging hookers and blow habit and I expect she will be relieved when she finds out it is only baseball cards

[drc]

Just remember that marriage counseling isn't free. You have to have some money left over to pay for it.

[JP]

I don't really understand what your thread title has to do with your question....I guess it is a joke or said to attract attention. Either way, either your wife will be on board with the idea or she won't. If you still engage in the hobby even if she isn't on board, that is financial infidelity.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by JP

If you still engage in the hobby even if she isn't on board, that is financial infidelity.

JP. The moral compass of the board!

[B O'Brien]

"Hookers and blow"! I never expected to see that phrase on this page. It is then followed up nicely by "that is financial infidelity". The card world is a great place!

If you want to show some profit, I would love give you a 10% increase on that nice little PSA 5 OM Collins!

Other than the buy offer, I have nothing worthwhile to add to this one. I am mostly trying to use this thread in my own world to explain card spending to the wife when I do tap into the credit card. I pretty much need to sell something to buy anything new.

Bob

[Jacklitsch]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Been married 29 years and I have spent lots of money on my collection over the years. A lot of items have doubled or tripled in value, very few are worth less than I paid. I don't think it would matter to my wife if I didn't make a nickel on my collection. She has never complained or questioned my judgment on financing my collection. Not because I am always right, not because I never make a mistake, not because I am the primary "breadwinner". She supports my hobby because it makes me happy and that makes me easier to live with. I have never seen my collection as an investment. I invest in stocks, mutual funds and real estate. Being a successful investor may make me happy but owning shares of Apple or Cisco or whatever will never give me the joy of owning a Babe Ruth autograph or a T206 Drum back. To me, treating my collection as an investment would take some of the joy out of it. I would worry too much about losing value. I prefer to spend what I can afford but never spend more than I can afford to lose.

Perfect!!

[tbob]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Been married 29 years and I have spent lots of money on my collection over the years. A lot of items have doubled or tripled in value, very few are worth less than I paid. I don't think it would matter to my wife if I didn't make a nickel on my collection. She has never complained or questioned my judgment on financing my collection. Not because I am always right, not because I never make a mistake, not because I am the primary "breadwinner". She supports my hobby because it makes me happy and that makes me easier to live with. I have never seen my collection as an investment. I invest in stocks, mutual funds and real estate. Being a successful investor may make me happy but owning shares of Apple or Cisco or whatever will never give me the joy of owning a Babe Ruth autograph or a T206 Drum back. To me, treating my collection as an investment would take some of the joy out of it. I would worry too much about losing value. I prefer to spend what I can afford but never spend more than I can afford to lose.

Ditto. I don't question what my wife buys and vice-versa. Both of us are relatively frugal and completely pool our money with the exception of profit made from the sale of the cards which is plowed back in to more cards unless the money is needed around tax time or for some emergency. I am lucky, she is not that interested in card collecting but wants me to be happy so tolerates it.

[ChiefBenderForever]

I just say this is my entertainment, do you want me to spend money on cards or strippers ? Cards will always win out !

[DanP]

I hope the Bruces don't read this thread! He's going to think he's right living on his own.

It sounds like you need an Enron style accountant to cook the books for you.

Good Luck!

Dan

[dstudeba]

If it is an investment, when are you planning to sell them?

When we need something I will often sell cards to fund the purchase. My wife doesn't worry how much I spend since she knows it is relatively liquid. I doesn't sound like this is true for you, so I find it hard to characterize it as an investment. I agree with your wife.

[glchen]

This is a pain, which you may not want to do, but I have a similar problem convincing my wife. Therefore, I told her that I'm looking to start a small business with the emphasis on "small." I'm already working on paperwork to get a seller's permit. I basically told my wife that the plan is to lose some money this year as I build up my collection, but eventually be able to start turning over some of the cards for break even or small profit. I told her to not expect a lot, but just break even or small profit, so the hobby isn't costing a lot, but is building up over time.

[slidekellyslide]

I'm eternally grateful that my wife already was aware of and accepting of my sickness before she said "Yes."

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I'm eternally grateful that my wife already was aware of and accepting of my sickness before she said "Yes."

That's funny Dan, because I had to make sure my current g/f would be ok with my hobby insanity. She is actually happy anytime I get a new card in the mail, and wants to learn about the hobby too. She could be the one!!

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Robextend

That's funny Dan, because I had to make sure my current g/f would be ok with my hobby insanity. She is actually happy anytime I get a new card in the mail, and wants to learn about the hobby too. She could be the one!!

My wife couldn't really give a crap about my cards and memorabilia...I can tell when she is feigning interest...and that's okay. I'm responsible...I don't buy stuff I can't afford and I've sold plenty in order to finance other purchases.

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by wolterse

. . . then I'm going to dramatically decrease the amount of dollars I allow you to spend on your cards . . . Any other advice and wisdom would be helpful.

At times like this I always ask myself "What would Cagney do"?



(Profuse apologies in advance to Joann and all other enlightened N54ers. It's the Weisenheimer's Disease; I can't help it).

[FrankWakefield]

1- If your cards are really an investment, then you should have no qualms about liquidating your position. If you're cards are up, you should be joyed to sell right now.

2- Cards are not an investment. I've gone over this before. Invest in mutual funds, stocks, bonds, a home, an education, a kid's education, real estate... You're fooling yourself if you think cards are an investment.

3- Seems to me more folks here are collectors, not investors, when it comes to their cards. There's not really any reason for a purest card investor to even fool with this site.

4- I don't think your wife should invest in Tiffany bracelets or rings... she'd have an attachment to those, they aren't investments even though they hold some value.

So I think your wife may well be right. Sell all of those investments. Then scale back what you spend on cards, to a collectible level. And let the rest of the idle money go into traditional, true investments.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by B O'Brien

"Hookers and blow"

I don't know if anyone is following the death of Malcolm McLaren, but this was essentially the 21st birthday present from McLaren to Steve Jones, who when asked to comment on McLaren's death said that it was the best birthday present he ever got!

[HercDriver]

I don't know about you, but my stocks took a pounding over the last few years. Not to mention my house. Show her the price of a card you collect from 2006 and what it sells for today - probably about the same. Then show her the market's performance and go on Zillow and check your house value. I bet the cards held their own while the others dropped. Just a thought...

Take Care,
Geno

[teetwoohsix]

Well,you can always get early hobby publications,and show her what these cards used to go for in the 70's-compared to what they are going for now

Regards,Clayton

P.S.Andrew & bigtrain-those were great answers.My wife has also learned about T206's,and loves to see the new cards I get-she is very supportive!!

[Ladder7]

Cagney's not a bad choice. But, I'd ask myself what would Turok do?

[wolterse]

Great advice! My wife is an economic major in grad school now so it's really impossible for me to avoid this conversation.

I think I need to pull a Tony Soprano and keep my stash under the floor boards

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's relatively easy to make a case that certain classes of cards likely will retain their value and may appreciate, but to try to justify specific card purchases on the ground that they are a better "investment" than other places one might invest the same money would be an exercise in sophistry that won't get past your wife. I think you need a new paradigm here.

[HercDriver]

OK, sometimes you just have to get creative. My wife really wanted a couple things that cost $6000 - I know we have young collectors on this board, so I won't say what those items were...I'll let you guess. So I pay the $6K, get more benefit out of the two items than she ever will, then tell her I need to spend a few grand on me. How's that for some creative bookkeeping!

Take Care,
Geno

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

2- Cards are not an investment. I've gone over this before.

LOL! Although I may agree with your sentiment, Frank, I do think it's possible that someone else may have a different opinion than yours, even if you have "gone over this before."

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

My wife really wanted a couple things that cost $6000 - I know we have young collectors on this board, so I won't say what those items were...I'll let you guess. So I pay the $6K, get more benefit out of the two items than she ever will, then tell her I need to spend a few grand on me.
Take Care,
Geno

Ummm? Buy the holder, not the slab?

[B O'Brien]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

OK, sometimes you just have to get creative. My wife really wanted a couple things that cost $6000 - I know we have young collectors on this board, so I won't say what those items were...I'll let you guess. So I pay the $6K, get more benefit out of the two items than she ever will, then tell her I need to spend a few grand on me. How's that for some creative bookkeeping!

Take Care,
Geno

I have typed at least three replies to this, all of which would offend at least 97% of folks.
Two big thumbs up Geno!!!

Carry on,
Bob

[carrigansghost]

Again, my collection is very pleasing since my divorce. I also notice a lack of shoes.

Rawn

[sox1903wschamp]

Originally Posted by carrigansghost

I also notice a lack of shoes.

Rawn

Thanks for the chuckle Rawn

[Jantz]

"ease his pain"

www.thebostondivorcelawyer.com

[Kenny Cole]

My wife is not happy with what I spend on cards. We've done the investment/not an investment thing, and as best as I can tell if I won't agree to liquidate them (which I won't), they ain't an investment. Doesn't matter if I can prove that they've appreciated or not.

Fortunately, my wife makes pretty good money and likes clothes (and shoes). I've seen some of those bills. I try to stay within reason, but when I don't and she bitches, I ask how much money her clothes are gonna make us. That generally: 1) shuts her up; and 2) results in me being celibate for an undetermined period of time. I guess its all about trade-offs.

[FUBAR]

I tell my wife/ gf that they do a monthly draw at the card store for a box of cards and luckily for me, i have won a few lately!

[FUBAR]

Originally Posted by Robextend

That's funny Dan, because I had to make sure my current g/f would be ok with my hobby insanity. She is actually happy anytime I get a new card in the mail, and wants to learn about the hobby too. She could be the one!!

Dont tell them too much Rob, i had a sweetie that took an interest in my hobby and thats the one that took me for 50K worth of cards and left me the junk! I couldnt believe i fell for it, she asked nicely how price guides worked and how to look things up and helped me sort my cards and asked me about players..... when we broke it off, i didnt know she had stolen a whole bunch, she sent me an email asking what she should do with the cards i gave her ( i gave her some crap cards i didnt want) I sent her an email back that she should keep them and do what she wants with them. Sell them keep them whatever... little did i know, this was her defense when i went to the police. She now has a letter from me saying i gave them to her and i told her she could keep them and sell them, which she did to all my goodies i never knew she took until later!

i guess my point is.. be careful not to divulge too much, you never know what their motive may be down the road, a scorned women is dangerous.

[John V]

This thread reminds me of a post my brother-in-law saw on his woodworker's forum...
"When I'm dead, I hope my wife doesn't sell my tools for what I told her I paid for them!"
I guess the word "tools" can be replaced with cards, gloves, trophies, bats, etc.

[Chicago206]

As I began tackling the T206 backs set, naturally I had to let the wife in on what was going on. Afterall, I very well couldnt just have $6,000 dissapear from the bank account without her noticing!

In the beginning, she just rolled her eyes and said "whatever". But that was for sub $200 purchases. When things started getting serious (Drum), she became a bit more interested in what I was "throwing our money away" on. Well, shortly after finishing the set, I decided to take a new direction. I ended up selling a few cards here on the BST. Since I was upfront on what I had spent on each new card as I bought them, and she has a mind like a steel trap (believe me thats NOT a good thing!), she was able to clearly see that my new hobby was a zero sum game. In other words, every card I sold was a break even on what we paid. This has really calmed her down as she now understands that im not just spending thousands on some goofy cardboard pictures of men. She now sees it as a legitimate investment, which as it turns out, is also a fun hobby for me. Im pretty much set with the green light on a BL460 now when the opportunity presents itself!

So in summary, IMO, the easiest and most effective way to show your better half the truth is to sell a few of your cards that might not fit your collection anymore. Every collector has some "dead weight" laying around (and no, im not talking about the wife!).

[jbsports33]

Erich,

The road is long and hard, it has been almost 10 years for me trying to get my wife to understand the process. I had to create a website, work at the shows and eBay to get her to see the benefit. It has worked and things are improving, but had to make it like a part-time business. Keep the business side to yourself for the most part and talk with her about simple things in the hobby.

Jimmy

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

As I began tackling the T206 backs set, naturally I had to let the wife in on what was going on. Afterall, I very well couldnt just have $6,000 dissapear from the bank account without her noticing!

In the beginning, she just rolled her eyes and said "whatever". But that was for sub $200 purchases. When things started getting serious (Drum), she became a bit more interested in what I was "throwing our money away" on. Well, shortly after finishing the set, I decided to take a new direction. I ended up selling a few cards here on the BST. Since I was upfront on what I had spent on each new card as I bought them, and she has a mind like a steel trap (believe me thats NOT a good thing!), she was able to clearly see that my new hobby was a zero sum game. In other words, every card I sold was a break even on what we paid. This has really calmed her down as she now understands that im not just spending thousands on some goofy cardboard pictures of men. She now sees it as a legitimate investment, which as it turns out, is also a fun hobby for me. Im pretty much set with the green light on a BL460 now when the opportunity presents itself!

So in summary, IMO, the easiest and most effective way to show your better half the truth is to sell a few of your cards that might not fit your collection anymore. Every collector has some "dead weight" laying around (and no, im not talking about the wife!).

Post of the Year nominee, in the dark irony category.

[Chicago206]

Everyone came to Jim's defense recently in another thread. Hard to truly believe all those complimets he got when it seems to me he is simply an antagonistic jerk. He has demonstrated this over the span of several threads and several days.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Chicago206

Everyone came to Jim's defense recently in another thread. Hard to truly believe all those complimets he got when it seems to me he is simply an antagonistic jerk. He has demonstrated this over the span of several threads and several days.

A guy can multi-task, can't he?

I admit, I can be an antagonistic jerk at times. Especially when new people, who have a very short history on this board and a very thin knowledge base of it's content, come here and, through the very tone of their posts, manage to pick a fight with knowledgeable, highly-respected hobby veterans, in nearly every single thread.

Once I realize that I can no longer carry on a civil conversation with those people, I do resort to lower level tactics.

In this case, that was you. Buying 15, readily available cards, over a 3-4 month span, getting mad at how you're treated on a message board, and then selling most, isn't "Card Collecting." It's just fooling around with your money.

Many of the people on this board have been in this hobby for 30 or more years. Some have lots of cards. Some only have a few. Some have large budgets. Some have almost zero dollars to spend. But they almost all have a love of the history of the game and the history of the hobby. You can't get that by buying a few handfuls of cards in a couple of months.

But even if I take the approach that everyone has to start somewhere, I don't understand the tactic that leads you to start challenging the knowledge base that Ted Z, or Jim B, or 10 other guys you've had spats with, have accumulated over many years.

Most of us aren't here on this board to fight. We're here to talk cards. Not how much we spent on the cards. Not how much our house cost. Not how much we make. But cards.

Until you can do that, your time here will never be smooth.

Best of luck to you in whatever you do.

[Chicago206]

Jim, are you referring to the "fight" about the Cobb/Cobb? Since when does a difference of opinion constitute a fight? I stated my beliefs, and was basically called a "know nothing idiot" because of it. What other "fights" am I getting into in "every thread"? I fail to see your point. Perhaps you could help me to see something im just not seeing? Where am I fighting? I guess we have different working definitions of the term "fight".

I got my feet wet by buying the 15 different backs. The fact that I have NOT sold my Drum should be an obvious signal that I actually DO want to further my development in the hobby. The fact that I recently bought a red Hindu is more testament to this fact. So I jumped into a pool and found it to be a bit too cold? So what? I simply decided that since I enjoy rarity more than quantity, the 15 card set wasnt for me. Im thinking that just the top of the top as far as back variations may better suit me. Afterall, I've been at this for a little over 4 months now....adjustments are sure to be made. Did you figure out exactly what you liked by month 4 of your collecting career?

[Jim VB]

1. Since when does a difference of opinion constitute a fight?

Message boards, by nature have no tone, no sarcasm filter, no audio cues to what someone says. So, yes, a difference of opinion between a new guy and a 30 year veteran, come off as a fight.



2. What other "fights" am I getting into in "every thread"?

Anyone else who has had a disagreement with chicago in the last 2-3 months want to vote here with a "ME"?


3. So I jumped into a pool and found it to be a bit too cold? So what? I simply decided that since I enjoy rarity more than quantity, the 15 card set wasnt for me.

If 15 cards is "too cold" or too deep, you might have to listen to some of the guys (not me, mind you) that have a little more experience. I do NOT consider myself an expert on any set, in any area of card collecting and I wouldn't notice another 15 cards either way. (Pics below.) I'm just saying this board has some real experts here. Use them.



4. Did you figure out exactly what you liked by month 4 of your collecting career?


Certainly not. But I was 5 at the time and collecting 1960 Topps cards out of wax packs and cutting them off of sheets. By the time I was out of college and gainfully employeed, yeah, I had a handle on it.

[Chicago206]

"I'm just saying this board has some real experts here. Use them."

At least we can agree on this point. The knowlege here is ultra impressive! However, in order to "maximize" my returns in this forum, it seems that I better not voice any of my opinions, and just agree with anything they say. They seem to hate it when a new guy has thoughts of his own!