National Game Joe Jackson No Good?

[danmckee]

I don't think this is original guys, be careful

Corners are not right and picture is wrong tone.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1913-WG5-NAT...item3f32526dcc


Dan Mckee

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I don't think this is original guys, be careful

Corners are not right and picture is wrong tone.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1913-WG5-NAT...item3f32526dcc


Dan Mckee

Fake!!

[danmckee]

Yes I agree Greg, thanks

I was trying to beat around the bush

Maybe Leon can talk to the guys at Beckett about it

Dan

[bbsports]

Good call Dan. Most early cards graded by Beckett either come back altered or fake.


Bi.ll Brod.head

[Peter_Spaeth]

At that price he is in no danger of selling it anyhow.

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by bbsports

Good call Dan. Most early cards graded by Beckett either come back altered or fake.

What does this mean? That Beckett makes a mistake, or that it's easy to crack the Beckett slabs open and thus insert a fake or altered card? Or does it mean it's a fake slab altogether?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

What does this mean? That Beckett makes a mistake, or that it's easy to crack the Beckett slabs open and thus insert a fake or altered card? Or does it mean it's a fake slab altogether?

First of all if anyone wants to make a comment like that then they will have their name put out here. Secondly it means that Beckett probably made a mistake on this one. At least that is the way it looks to me too. As for their holders, they are almost impossible to crack so cracking and putting another card in is unlikely.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

What makes it look fake?

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by pbspelly

What does this mean? That Beckett makes a mistake, or that it's easy to crack the Beckett slabs open and thus insert a fake or altered card? Or does it mean it's a fake slab altogether?

I think he was just trying to say that the folks at Beckett specialize in post war cards 1948 to date and are not quite as well versed as the other 2 major grading companies in the pre WWII arena.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

What makes it look fake?

I stated what makes it look fake, the color tone of the picture and the wrong angle of the corners.

Search ebay for WG5 National Game and you will see that this one sticks out like a sore thumb.

Dan Mckee

[Leon]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I stated what makes it look fake, the color tone of the picture and the wrong angle of the corners.

Search ebay for WG5 National Game and you will see that this one sticks out like a sore thumb.

Dan Mckee

Or I can search my collection (and the one on ebay)

[GehrigFan]

I alerted the Beckett guys. By the way, it is way off base to claim most early BVG cards are fake or altered. In reality, the vast majority are being bought up and regraded because they were graded a bit harshly. No one has handled more BVG cards than me. I don't say that to brag but to make a point that it was exceedingly rare to get a BVG card back for a problem. When they did, Beckett bought back every one.

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

I alerted the Beckett guys. By the way, it is way off base to claim most early BVG cards are fake or altered. In reality, the vast majority are being bought up and regraded because they were graded a bit harshly. No one has handled more BVG cards than me. I don't say that to brag but to make a point that it was exceedingly rare to get a BVG card back for a problem. When they did, Beckett bought back every one.

This actually answers my question. It was the "come back" part of the statement "Most early cards graded by Beckett either come back altered or fake" that confused me. I didn't realize that people were getting Beckett-graded cards regraded.

[chipperhank44]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

I alerted the Beckett guys. By the way, it is way off base to claim most early BVG cards are fake or altered. In reality, the vast majority are being bought up and regraded because they were graded a bit harshly. No one has handled more BVG cards than me. I don't say that to brag but to make a point that it was exceedingly rare to get a BVG card back for a problem. When they did, Beckett bought back every one.

+1

[danmckee]

Cool great work everyone and thanks Leon for posting the comparison picture and for the nice fellows who contacted Beckett!

Mission accomplished

Dan Mckee

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

I alerted the Beckett guys. By the way, it is way off base to claim most early BVG cards are fake or altered. In reality, the vast majority are being bought up and regraded because they were graded a bit harshly. No one has handled more BVG cards than me. I don't say that to brag but to make a point that it was exceedingly rare to get a BVG card back for a problem. When they did, Beckett bought back every one.

So you are saying the BVG 1951 Bowman 8.5 Mantle on ebay right now and the 1954 BVG 7.5 Aaron on ebay right now are actually harshly graded or even remotely an easy PSA or SGC crossover. Really? Seriously?

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by bbeck

So you are saying the BVG 1951 Bowman 8.5 Mantle on ebay right now and the 1954 BVG 7.5 Aaron on ebay right now are actually harshly graded or even remotely an easy PSA or SGC crossover. Really? Seriously?

Hi Bob!

How have you been?

Can you post links to those 2 auctions?

thanks
Dan Mckee

[7nohitter]

This thread has been great...Seriously learning a ton. LOVE this site.
-Nolan Ryan rules

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Hi Bob!

How have you been?

Can you post links to those 2 auctions?

thanks
Dan Mckee

Hi Dan-Things are great. Hope all is well with you. Had to chime in on that one as I was a bit stunned. Reminded me of the Animal House speech when Belushi said "the German's bombed Pearl Harbor." Not quite sure these will cross or upgrade but I guess maybe I should take the shot. I don't post all that much. I can't link them but I can give ebay item #'s-Mantle- 121295939422 and Aaron- 221393290216. Maybe someone can post them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121295939422...422%26_rdc%3D1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221393290216...216%26_rdc%3D1


.

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by bbeck

So you are saying the BVG 1951 Bowman 8.5 Mantle on ebay right now and the 1954 BVG 7.5 Aaron on ebay right now are actually harshly graded or even remotely an easy PSA or SGC crossover. Really? Seriously?

Yes, I believe I said word for word "every BVG card is undergraded". Precisely. Don't be ridiculous. Every TPG misses some things or overgrades some things or undergrades some things. Human error is inherent in the grading process to some extant. We all know there are plenty of overgraded PSA or SGC cards to point out as well, or for that matter, raw cards graded by a dealer or collector. My point was that it was incorrect to make a claim that "most" early BVG cards are bad. That's an overgeneralization that is not true. Same as your overgeneralization thinking I said every BVG card is undergraded. Don't argue just for the sake of watching yourself type.

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by bbeck

Hi Dan-Things are great. Hope all is well with you. Had to chime in on that one as I was a bit stunned. Reminded me of the Animal House speech when Belushi said "the German's bombed Pearl Harbor." Not quite sure these will cross or upgrade but I guess maybe I should take the shot. I don't post all that much. I can't link them but I can give ebay item #'s-Mantle- 121295939422 and Aaron- 221393290216. Maybe someone can post them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121295939422...422%26_rdc%3D1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221393290216...216%26_rdc%3D1


.

Neither of these are early graded BVG cards. The serial numbers are in the 6 & 7 millions meaning they were graded in the past 2-3 years. Early BVG cards are those either before the BVG holder, or when they had subgrades.

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

Yes, I believe I said word for word "every BVG card is undergraded". Precisely. Don't be ridiculous. Every TPG misses some things or overgrades some things or undergrades some things. Human error is inherent in the grading process to some extant. We all know there are plenty of overgraded PSA or SGC cards to point out as well, or for that matter, raw cards graded by a dealer or collector. My point was that it was incorrect to make a claim that "most" early BVG cards are bad. That's an overgeneralization that is not true. Same as your overgeneralization thinking I said every BVG card is undergraded. Don't argue just for the sake of watching yourself type.

You already hung yourself with your own words. "The vast majority are being bought up and regraded." I believe that is the purest possible definition of overgeneralization. In fact, that should be the sentence in Webster's that defines overgeneralization. If you want to be an infomercial for a vintage service that is #3 in the industry with #4 being PRO then so be it. When you respond with all your data regarding BVG cards(only the older labels, no newer labels) with proof that a large percentage are now in PSA or SGC equivalent holders, I will absolutely stand corrected. Otherwise, your statement is just an infomercial by a BVG dealer. I sure hope they have the 1913 Jackson removed and buy it back as I actually own the #2 1913 National Game set on the PSA registry and that is a brutal reprint.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I, and I think many others, still assume that if a pre-1980 card is in a holder other than PSA or SGC, there is a reason for it.

[Sean1125]

I just had a situation with Beckett where I purchased a T206 O'Hara St Louis BVG 6. The card was fake and it took them over 3 months to give me a refund. They refused to refund any costs incurred from purchasing the card (show/regrade where I was told it was NG, etc). All in all because of their mistake I am out over $1500. I will NEVER purchase another beckett card after that one. They strung me out for 3 months and I was forced to get my attorney involved for resolution.

Edit to add: I 101% agree with Peter's statement one post earlier.

[chipperhank44]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I, and I think many others, still assume that if a pre-1980 card is in a holder other than PSA or SGC, there is a reason for it.

Their holder actually protects your card.....is that the reason you are referring to?

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by chipperhank44

Their holder actually protects your card.....is that the reason you are referring to?

Uh, no!

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I just had a situation with Beckett where I purchased a T206 O'Hara St Louis BVG 6. The card was fake and it took them over 3 months to give me a refund. They refused to refund any costs incurred from purchasing the card (show/regrade where I was told it was NG, etc). All in all because of their mistake I am out over $1500. I will NEVER purchase another beckett card after that one. They strung me out for 3 months and I was forced to get my attorney involved for resolution.

Edit to add: I 101% agree with Peter's statement one post earlier.

Sean- I bet it was not an older holder, otherwise it would have converted to an easy PSA 6 or higher. Wait, I could be overgeneralizing, make that a PSA 5 or higher to be on the conservative side. Sorry for your experience with that company.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I just had a situation with Beckett where I purchased a T206 O'Hara St Louis BVG 6. The card was fake and it took them over 3 months to give me a refund. They refused to refund any costs incurred from purchasing the card (show/regrade where I was told it was NG, etc). All in all because of their mistake I am out over $1500. I will NEVER purchase another beckett card after that one. They strung me out for 3 months and I was forced to get my attorney involved for resolution.

Edit to add: I 101% agree with Peter's statement one post earlier.

What was the reason for not refunding all of the cost?

[ezez420]

Removed comment
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by bbeck

You already hung yourself with your own words. "The vast majority are being bought up and regraded." I believe that is the purest possible definition of overgeneralization. In fact, that should be the sentence in Webster's that defines overgeneralization. If you want to be an infomercial for a vintage service that is #3 in the industry with #4 being PRO then so be it. When you respond with all your data regarding BVG cards(only the older labels, no newer labels) with proof that a large percentage are now in PSA or SGC equivalent holders, I will absolutely stand corrected. Otherwise, your statement is just an infomercial by a BVG dealer. I sure hope they have the 1913 Jackson removed and buy it back as I actually own the #2 1913 National Game set on the PSA registry and that is a brutal reprint.

Sorry, I am not a BVG dealer. I have as many cards in SGC and PSA slabs as BVG. I buy the card and not the holder, so I don't care who graded it. I even have 1 GAI card. I simply know it was a misleading statement that unfairly maligned a reputable TPG service. Considering I ran BGS for 15 years, yes I do have data backing that up, but I am also held to confidentiality agreements that I certainly not going to break in order to appease you. Besides, the "proof" you want is impossible considering the flips would have been destroyed upon breaking and resubmittal or crossovers, or would still be in the possession of the TPG. Considering I was questioning the accuracy of the original statement, the burden of proof is upon someone else to prove that most BVG cards are fake or altered. But to make you happy, I will amend my statement by simply stating "the vast majority of BVG cards are authentic an unaltered." Would you disagree?

Ma.rk And.erson

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

Sorry, I am not a BVG dealer. I have as many cards in SGC and PSA slabs as BVG. I buy the card and not the holder, so I don't care who graded it. I even have 1 GAI card. I simply know it was a misleading statement that unfairly maligned a reputable TPG service. Considering I ran BGS for 15 years, yes I do have data backing that up, but I am also held to confidentiality agreements that I certainly not going to break in order to appease you. Besides, the "proof" you want is impossible considering the flips would have been destroyed upon breaking and resubmittal or crossovers, or would still be in the possession of the TPG. Considering I was questioning the accuracy of the original statement, the burden of proof is upon someone else to prove that most BVG cards are fake or altered. But to make you happy, I will amend my statement by simply stating "the vast majority of BVG cards are authentic an unaltered." Would you disagree?

Ma.rk And.erson

I do not know. I do not own any BVG cards. I did not make the original statement regarding altered or authentic cards, I simply responded to a quote that was "over the top" and completely unprovable (unless you ran PSA and SGC also). You probably owe the moderator money as it should have been a banner ad. I hope your former company takes care of the 1913 National Game Jackson card. That would be positive, although it appears a board member had a similar problem.

[Sean1125]

Originally Posted by ezez420

Sean, seems like you were planning on taking someone over the coals with the O'Hara. $1500 on a card that sells for over $10000. Sometimes those deals are too good to be true.


Ed DeS.erio

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

huh?????? I paid 9k~ for the card I am OUT 1500 due to my flight, hotel, and re grade as I don't mail cards like that.. and beckett wouldn't refund any 'unauthorized' costs on a card. This is UP AND ABOVE the 8870 or whatever it was for the card

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

huh?????? I paid 9k~ for the card I am OUT 1500 due to my flight, hotel, and re grade as I don't mail cards like that.. and beckett wouldn't refund any 'unauthorized' costs on a card. This is UP AND ABOVE the 8870 or whatever it was for the card

Not mailing a card like that isn't the grading companies issue. I wouldn't refund you either for your incidentals. If you need some help on how to ship expensive items give me a call. I will tell you about registered mail and insurance. They work well.

[Rich Klein]

Sean

Were you uncomfortable with mailing in that card and thus wanted to hand deliver to ensure nothing happened to the card before it reached the Beckett office?

Rich

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Leon

Not mailing a card like that isn't the grading companies issue. I wouldn't refund you either for your incidentals. If you need some help on how to ship expensive items give me a call. I will tell you about registered mail and insurance. They work well.

Last week I mailed a $2800 vintage knife registered priority mail that was supposed to take two days to deliver, we are now on day 6 and it has not been delivered...as of yesterday it showed that it was in Chicago, but they could not tell me where it actually was. The buyer also tried to track it down yesterday with no luck...Today it is showing as "out for delivery"...In Vermont. I don't think there is any excuse for the Post Office to treat registered mail this way.

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by Leon

Not mailing a card like that isn't the grading companies issue. I wouldn't refund you either for your incidentals. If you need some help on how to ship expensive items give me a call. I will tell you about registered mail and insurance. They work well.

+ 1, mailed all sorts of cards T206 Planks, BL460s etc. etc. etc.

Not cheap you're going to pay 200-500$ bucks to ship an insure for overnight delivery but that has to be cheaper than airfare, hotel and time on the road.......I too would not expect the TPG to refund me for that.

Cheers,

John

[Peter_Spaeth]

The odds of anything going wrong with a registered mail shipment (except perhaps a slight delay) are infinitesimally small, in my opinion.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The odds of anything going wrong with a registered mail shipment (except perhaps a slight delay) are infinitesimally small, in my opinion.

I hope you're right, and I hope it really is out for delivery today, but it doesn't ease my mind that no one could tell me where my registered package was yesterday.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I hope you're right, and I hope it really is out for delivery today, but it doesn't ease my mind that no one could tell me where my registered package was yesterday.

I've run into the same thing with registered mail, but I know they keep the registered packages locked up separate from all the other mail, and anyone who touches it has to sign something.

So my question: is it safe to send registered mail uninsured, provided your packaging is super-safe?

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Last week I mailed a $2800 vintage knife registered priority mail that was supposed to take two days to deliver, we are now on day 6 and it has not been delivered...as of yesterday it showed that it was in Chicago, but they could not tell me where it actually was. The buyer also tried to track it down yesterday with no luck...Today it is showing as "out for delivery"...In Vermont. I don't think there is any excuse for the Post Office to treat registered mail this way.

Every registered package I've sent or received has been like this; tracking only shows accepted and no interim stops. But it always gets delivered, it does usually take up to 7 or 8 business days. It is the safest and most secure way to ship by far. I've never heard of a registered package getting lost, although I'm sure it's happened. I would assume anyone receiving registered mail would expect a delay.

[danmckee]

I stopped using registered mail when I had a package ripped open by a postal employee and the contents removed and the package delivered empty.

I know registered is signed for by everyone who touches but the PO just paid the claim and no investigation.

A small light package with a large value label displayed is enticing a postal worker by telling him something expensive is inside.

I just sent a $2K card cross country, First Class signature confirmation. Cost me $4. I do that all of the time since my incident 12 years ago.

The PO works well when you do not entice their employees with big dollar labels.

Dan

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

Every registered package I've sent or received has been like this; tracking only shows accepted and no interim stops. But it always gets delivered, it does usually take up to 7 or 8 business days. It is the safest and most secure way to ship by far. I've never heard of a registered package getting lost, although I'm sure it's happened. I would assume anyone receiving registered mail would expect a delay.

I did not know this...I've only sent registered mail twice..the first was by request from a Net54er who bought a couple grand worth of stuff from me and it was delivered in 24 hours from Lincoln to Boston. This is only the second time and I was assured by the USPS worker at the counter it would take two days. The fact that no one could tell me where it was yesterday (the 5th day) was a bit concerning...especially since ebay automatically opened a case against me when the buyer asked me where it was.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I've run into the same thing with registered mail, but I know they keep the registered packages locked up separate from all the other mail, and anyone who touches it has to sign something.

So my question: is it safe to send registered mail uninsured, provided your packaging is super-safe?

I think the answer is yes it is ok without insurance (I am not advocating just giving an opinion). As was mentioned USPS Registered mail is locked up and signed for at every step. If one of those gets lost get ready for some serious investigating from Postal Agents. That being said many times, because of the extra steps, it does take longer to get to the recipient. From my understanding Registered mail is the way many diamond shipments are shipped too.

Edited to add, I just saw Dan's post. If the PO paid a claim for a lost package then that is all anyone can expect. And I agree, I bet the lost registered mail pile is very, very small.

For me personally, I ship expensive things over night and hold my breath till it's received.

[barrysloate]

I've sent a few thousand registered packages over my 25 years in the hobby and never had a single one lost. Sometimes they do take a little longer but they arrive 100% of the time. And the cost of sending a 9K package fully insured is around $25-30.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think the answer is yes it is ok without insurance (I am not advocating just giving an opinion). As was mentioned USPS Registered mail is locked up and signed for at every step. If one of those gets lost get ready for some serious investigating from Postal Agents. That being said many times, because of the extra steps, it does take longer to get to the recipient. From my understanding Registered mail is the way many diamond shipments are shipped too.

Edited to add, I just saw Dan's post. If the PO paid a claim for a lost package then that is all anyone can expect. And I agree, I bet the lost registered mail pile is very, very small.

For me personally, I ship expensive things over night and hold my breath till it's received.

Ha! I used to hold my breath as well!

Then I just got comfortable with them doing their job

I think I still have a picture of the box somewhere, looking for it now.

Funny thing was that there was about $6K worth of Wacky Package Stickers in it at the time I think.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I've sent a few thousand registered packages over my 25 years in the hobby and never had a single one lost. Sometimes they do take a little longer but they arrive 100% of the time. And the cost of sending a 9K package fully insured is around $25-30.

Actually I think I sent Scott Brockelman's T206 Plank I picked up for him from Sotheby's years ago and mailed it Registered and insured as he requested and it was about $28 so Barry is on target.

Sotheby's wanted $400 to ship it and I was already training up to pick up my 1933 Goudey Lajoie I won.

Remember that Scott?

[Sean1125]

It's not that I am uncomfortable ai ship plenty of high dollar packages. I typically fly out to shows to re grade, review etc when I have quite a few cards this particular show happened to be 3 with the ohara being half the value of 3. Even if they didn't do the flight and hotel they refused 100% to refund the grading fees (250) incurred for me to know it was NG. I refused to sign their NDA because of it hence why I can talk about it... sorry for bad grammar working from phone for the past 5 days LOL...

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Sean

Were you uncomfortable with mailing in that card and thus wanted to hand deliver to ensure nothing happened to the card before it reached the Beckett office?

Rich

[Sean1125]

For the record in the past 2 years I have shipped at least 15 registered packages ranging from 10k to 25 (max even though value was above) and not one has been lost. Had a problem with a 13k one going to the Senate office but it ended up just find. It is a personal preference to submit high dollar cards at shows. I am surprised they did not atleast refund rhetoric re grade though. Also the process to actually get the refund was hell. The head guy happened to be out because of a newborn and it took months to get resolution even though I truly believe it shouldn't have taken more than a few days after they offered the refund ( it took over 3 weeks to actually get the check even after they said they were going to send it).... hope no grammar problems again on phone sorry guys!!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Actually I think I sent Scott Brockelman's T206 Plank I picked up for him from Sotheby's years ago and mailed it Registered and insured as he requested and it was about $28 so Barry is on target.

Sotheby's wanted $400 to ship it and I was already training up to pick up my 1933 Goudey Lajoie I won.

Remember that Scott?

Dan, I just sent a $1.5K package registered, and the cost was $30.74. I think they must have raised their registered mail rates, as this sounded incredibly high to me, but hell - I was already standing in line, so I just paid it

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Dan, I just sent a $1.5K package registered, and the cost was $30.74. I think they must have raised their registered mail rates, as this sounded incredibly high to me, but hell - I was already standing in line, so I just paid it

Yeah it was many years ago Scott so inflation may have hit their rates.

Damn I thought I had the picture of that box still. I know I had saved it forever.

It has been posted here before too, probably on the old NET54 board.