National Game Joe Jackson No Good?

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

What makes it look fake?

I stated what makes it look fake, the color tone of the picture and the wrong angle of the corners.

Search ebay for WG5 National Game and you will see that this one sticks out like a sore thumb.

Dan Mckee

[Leon]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I stated what makes it look fake, the color tone of the picture and the wrong angle of the corners.

Search ebay for WG5 National Game and you will see that this one sticks out like a sore thumb.

Dan Mckee

Or I can search my collection (and the one on ebay)

[GehrigFan]

I alerted the Beckett guys. By the way, it is way off base to claim most early BVG cards are fake or altered. In reality, the vast majority are being bought up and regraded because they were graded a bit harshly. No one has handled more BVG cards than me. I don't say that to brag but to make a point that it was exceedingly rare to get a BVG card back for a problem. When they did, Beckett bought back every one.

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

I alerted the Beckett guys. By the way, it is way off base to claim most early BVG cards are fake or altered. In reality, the vast majority are being bought up and regraded because they were graded a bit harshly. No one has handled more BVG cards than me. I don't say that to brag but to make a point that it was exceedingly rare to get a BVG card back for a problem. When they did, Beckett bought back every one.

This actually answers my question. It was the "come back" part of the statement "Most early cards graded by Beckett either come back altered or fake" that confused me. I didn't realize that people were getting Beckett-graded cards regraded.

[chipperhank44]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

I alerted the Beckett guys. By the way, it is way off base to claim most early BVG cards are fake or altered. In reality, the vast majority are being bought up and regraded because they were graded a bit harshly. No one has handled more BVG cards than me. I don't say that to brag but to make a point that it was exceedingly rare to get a BVG card back for a problem. When they did, Beckett bought back every one.

+1

[danmckee]

Cool great work everyone and thanks Leon for posting the comparison picture and for the nice fellows who contacted Beckett!

Mission accomplished

Dan Mckee

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

I alerted the Beckett guys. By the way, it is way off base to claim most early BVG cards are fake or altered. In reality, the vast majority are being bought up and regraded because they were graded a bit harshly. No one has handled more BVG cards than me. I don't say that to brag but to make a point that it was exceedingly rare to get a BVG card back for a problem. When they did, Beckett bought back every one.

So you are saying the BVG 1951 Bowman 8.5 Mantle on ebay right now and the 1954 BVG 7.5 Aaron on ebay right now are actually harshly graded or even remotely an easy PSA or SGC crossover. Really? Seriously?

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by bbeck

So you are saying the BVG 1951 Bowman 8.5 Mantle on ebay right now and the 1954 BVG 7.5 Aaron on ebay right now are actually harshly graded or even remotely an easy PSA or SGC crossover. Really? Seriously?

Hi Bob!

How have you been?

Can you post links to those 2 auctions?

thanks
Dan Mckee

[7nohitter]

This thread has been great...Seriously learning a ton. LOVE this site.
-Nolan Ryan rules

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Hi Bob!

How have you been?

Can you post links to those 2 auctions?

thanks
Dan Mckee

Hi Dan-Things are great. Hope all is well with you. Had to chime in on that one as I was a bit stunned. Reminded me of the Animal House speech when Belushi said "the German's bombed Pearl Harbor." Not quite sure these will cross or upgrade but I guess maybe I should take the shot. I don't post all that much. I can't link them but I can give ebay item #'s-Mantle- 121295939422 and Aaron- 221393290216. Maybe someone can post them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121295939422...422%26_rdc%3D1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221393290216...216%26_rdc%3D1


.

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by bbeck

Hi Dan-Things are great. Hope all is well with you. Had to chime in on that one as I was a bit stunned. Reminded me of the Animal House speech when Belushi said "the German's bombed Pearl Harbor." Not quite sure these will cross or upgrade but I guess maybe I should take the shot. I don't post all that much. I can't link them but I can give ebay item #'s-Mantle- 121295939422 and Aaron- 221393290216. Maybe someone can post them.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121295939422...422%26_rdc%3D1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221393290216...216%26_rdc%3D1


.

Neither of these are early graded BVG cards. The serial numbers are in the 6 & 7 millions meaning they were graded in the past 2-3 years. Early BVG cards are those either before the BVG holder, or when they had subgrades.

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by bbeck

So you are saying the BVG 1951 Bowman 8.5 Mantle on ebay right now and the 1954 BVG 7.5 Aaron on ebay right now are actually harshly graded or even remotely an easy PSA or SGC crossover. Really? Seriously?

Yes, I believe I said word for word "every BVG card is undergraded". Precisely. Don't be ridiculous. Every TPG misses some things or overgrades some things or undergrades some things. Human error is inherent in the grading process to some extant. We all know there are plenty of overgraded PSA or SGC cards to point out as well, or for that matter, raw cards graded by a dealer or collector. My point was that it was incorrect to make a claim that "most" early BVG cards are bad. That's an overgeneralization that is not true. Same as your overgeneralization thinking I said every BVG card is undergraded. Don't argue just for the sake of watching yourself type.

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by GehrigFan

Yes, I believe I said word for word "every BVG card is undergraded". Precisely. Don't be ridiculous. Every TPG misses some things or overgrades some things or undergrades some things. Human error is inherent in the grading process to some extant. We all know there are plenty of overgraded PSA or SGC cards to point out as well, or for that matter, raw cards graded by a dealer or collector. My point was that it was incorrect to make a claim that "most" early BVG cards are bad. That's an overgeneralization that is not true. Same as your overgeneralization thinking I said every BVG card is undergraded. Don't argue just for the sake of watching yourself type.

You already hung yourself with your own words. "The vast majority are being bought up and regraded." I believe that is the purest possible definition of overgeneralization. In fact, that should be the sentence in Webster's that defines overgeneralization. If you want to be an infomercial for a vintage service that is #3 in the industry with #4 being PRO then so be it. When you respond with all your data regarding BVG cards(only the older labels, no newer labels) with proof that a large percentage are now in PSA or SGC equivalent holders, I will absolutely stand corrected. Otherwise, your statement is just an infomercial by a BVG dealer. I sure hope they have the 1913 Jackson removed and buy it back as I actually own the #2 1913 National Game set on the PSA registry and that is a brutal reprint.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I, and I think many others, still assume that if a pre-1980 card is in a holder other than PSA or SGC, there is a reason for it.

[GehrigFan]

Originally Posted by bbeck

You already hung yourself with your own words. "The vast majority are being bought up and regraded." I believe that is the purest possible definition of overgeneralization. In fact, that should be the sentence in Webster's that defines overgeneralization. If you want to be an infomercial for a vintage service that is #3 in the industry with #4 being PRO then so be it. When you respond with all your data regarding BVG cards(only the older labels, no newer labels) with proof that a large percentage are now in PSA or SGC equivalent holders, I will absolutely stand corrected. Otherwise, your statement is just an infomercial by a BVG dealer. I sure hope they have the 1913 Jackson removed and buy it back as I actually own the #2 1913 National Game set on the PSA registry and that is a brutal reprint.

Sorry, I am not a BVG dealer. I have as many cards in SGC and PSA slabs as BVG. I buy the card and not the holder, so I don't care who graded it. I even have 1 GAI card. I simply know it was a misleading statement that unfairly maligned a reputable TPG service. Considering I ran BGS for 15 years, yes I do have data backing that up, but I am also held to confidentiality agreements that I certainly not going to break in order to appease you. Besides, the "proof" you want is impossible considering the flips would have been destroyed upon breaking and resubmittal or crossovers, or would still be in the possession of the TPG. Considering I was questioning the accuracy of the original statement, the burden of proof is upon someone else to prove that most BVG cards are fake or altered. But to make you happy, I will amend my statement by simply stating "the vast majority of BVG cards are authentic an unaltered." Would you disagree?

Ma.rk And.erson

[Sean1125]

I just had a situation with Beckett where I purchased a T206 O'Hara St Louis BVG 6. The card was fake and it took them over 3 months to give me a refund. They refused to refund any costs incurred from purchasing the card (show/regrade where I was told it was NG, etc). All in all because of their mistake I am out over $1500. I will NEVER purchase another beckett card after that one. They strung me out for 3 months and I was forced to get my attorney involved for resolution.

Edit to add: I 101% agree with Peter's statement one post earlier.

[bbeck]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I just had a situation with Beckett where I purchased a T206 O'Hara St Louis BVG 6. The card was fake and it took them over 3 months to give me a refund. They refused to refund any costs incurred from purchasing the card (show/regrade where I was told it was NG, etc). All in all because of their mistake I am out over $1500. I will NEVER purchase another beckett card after that one. They strung me out for 3 months and I was forced to get my attorney involved for resolution.

Edit to add: I 101% agree with Peter's statement one post earlier.

Sean- I bet it was not an older holder, otherwise it would have converted to an easy PSA 6 or higher. Wait, I could be overgeneralizing, make that a PSA 5 or higher to be on the conservative side. Sorry for your experience with that company.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

I just had a situation with Beckett where I purchased a T206 O'Hara St Louis BVG 6. The card was fake and it took them over 3 months to give me a refund. They refused to refund any costs incurred from purchasing the card (show/regrade where I was told it was NG, etc). All in all because of their mistake I am out over $1500. I will NEVER purchase another beckett card after that one. They strung me out for 3 months and I was forced to get my attorney involved for resolution.

Edit to add: I 101% agree with Peter's statement one post earlier.

What was the reason for not refunding all of the cost?