T206 Lionel Carter vs. Harris Collection

[CMIZ5290]

I am trying to figure out why some people criticize certain collectors (Harris, with PSA for example), some cards probably questionable, but yet there is no criticism towards this collector (Carter) with SGC to be found anywhere on this board, (alot of cards questionable). Is it really that much PSA vs. SGC? Is Lionel Carter that reputable a guy and not Harris? I have a couple of T206s from his collection that are ridiculous, grade wise. Why no criticism his way? Just curious....

[sb1]

There is a large disparity in the history of the cards of the two esteemed collectors. One collected/trade/bought cards in an era when the cards were sometimes cut down to fit pages. The other bought cards when they were trimmed to deceive.

The former are graded as such, the later not so much.

Pretty much sums it up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sb1

There is a large disparity in the history of the cards of the two esteemed collectors. One collected/trade/bought cards in an era when the cards were sometimes cut down to fit pages. The other bought cards when they were trimmed to deceive.

The former are graded as such, the later not so much.

Pretty much sums it up.

You assume Carter's cards were submitted without any work being done on them. I hope that is the case but I would not bet on it given the state of that firm's legal affairs.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by sb1

There is a large disparity in the history of the cards of the two esteemed collectors. One collected/trade/bought cards in an era when the cards were sometimes cut down to fit pages. The other bought cards when they were trimmed to deceive.

The former are graded as such, the later not so much.

Pretty much sums it up.

Agree completely. First of all, I've never even thought of the Carter collection as SGC-centric (they may be, but it's never something I've consciously noticed). The Harris collection is largely filled with (and obviously so) trimmed cards. To suggest that "some" of the Harris collection are "probably questionable" and the Carter collection to be "a lot ... questionable" is simply not true -- the percentage of good Carter cards is high, the percentage of good Harris cards is low. And this has nothing to do with SGC v. PSA, nothing at all.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You assume Carter's cards were submitted without any work being done on them. I hope that is the case but I would not bet on it given the state of that firm's legal affairs.

Agreed. If the gypsies or Doug Allen had a hold on any Carter card, there's a reason to at least be concerned.

[Steve D]

Regarding the Harris Collection, I read recently in one of the articles about Mastro's legal proceedings, that the T206s in the Harris Collection supposedly have a close connection with the "infamous" Wagner.


Steve

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Agree completely. First of all, I've never even thought of the Carter collection as SGC-centric (they may be, but it's never something I've consciously noticed). The Harris collection is largely filled with (and obviously so) trimmed cards. To suggest that "some" of the Harris collection are "probably questionable" and the Carter collection to be "a lot ... questionable" is simply not true -- the percentage of good Carter cards is high, the percentage of good Harris cards is low. And this has nothing to do with SGC v. PSA, nothing at all.

Jeff- In your opinion, most of the Harris cards are not good? Is that what you are saying?

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Regarding the Harris Collection, I read recently in one of the articles about Mastro's legal proceedings, that the T206s in the Harris Collection supposedly have a close connection with the "infamous" Wagner.


Steve

Steve- could you share that article? Thanks alot...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Jeff- In your opinion, most of the Harris cards are not good? Is that what you are saying?

Unfortunately, yes. And I have no axe to grind on this one; while I represent Dave Forman, I have thousands of costly PSA graded cards. The Harris cards are often dismissed as trimmed upon a two second glance from 50 feet away. And the graders had to see this just as clearly as we all have on this board.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Steve- could you share that article? Thanks alot...

I can't immediately place where I saw the article, but it mentioned that the Wagner and a T206 set were both bought in the Copeland Auction, and it implied that the set of cards also came from Mastro. I don't remember it specifically mentioning the Harris name, but it did refer to it as going to someone in Southern California, and that a large number of the cards ended up going to PSA.

I'll look around and try to find the article. I just saw it within the past month.

Steve

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Unfortunately, yes. And I have no axe to grind on this one; while I represent Dave Forman, I have thousands of costly PSA graded cards. The Harris cards are often dismissed as trimmed upon a two second glance from 50 feet away. And the graders had to see this just as clearly as we all have on this board.

Jeff- I understand, thanks alot for your candor.....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Unfortunately, yes. And I have no axe to grind on this one; while I represent Dave Forman, I have thousands of costly PSA graded cards. The Harris cards are often dismissed as trimmed upon a two second glance from 50 feet away. And the graders had to see this just as clearly as we all have on this board.

And therefore what, they graded them anyhow for the publicity? As a favor?

[Cardboard Junkie]

Maybe psa was "bullied" into grading them.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And therefore what, they graded them anyhow for the publicity? As a favor?

Who knows? But the Harris cards are so obviously trimmed that no loupe is required for inspection--just eyeballs that work.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Who knows? But the Harris cards are so obviously trimmed that no loupe is required for inspection--just eyeballs that work.

Jeff- you're making me a tad nervous as I have several high grade Harris T206s. Most I have seen with a loupe, with no obvious issues... Hope you are dead wrong on this, but who knows??....I have sold a couple that I didn't feel so warm about for what it's worth...

[Steve D]

I found the article:

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/

Go to #10 not quite 1/3 of the way down the page (below the pictures of the Wagner and Plank. It mentions Kirk Harris by name.

Steve

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Who knows? But the Harris cards are so obviously trimmed that no loupe is required for inspection--just eyeballs that work.

Need a motive for a crime....

Who cares its just a hobby

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Steve D

I found the article:

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/

Go to #10 not quite 1/3 of the way down the page (below the pictures of the Wagner and Plank. It mentions Kirk Harris by name.

Steve

Thanks Steve....

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Jeff- you're making me a tad nervous as I have several high grade Harris T206s. Most I have seen with a loupe, with no obvious issues... Hope you are dead wrong on this, but who knows??....I have sold a couple that I didn't feel so warm about for what it's worth...

I'm not saying they all are trimmed but as Scott pointed out, the Harris cards have a well-deserved reputation.

[atx840]

That article also mentions Brent 's recent Ruth pickup...I recall the Goudey's being mentioned prior as suspect.

Hmmmm....what's going on with this "little" hobby of ours

[Peter_Spaeth]

"Sources indicate that a class-action lawsuit is in the works against Kendrick and the Hall of Fame on behalf of the 500,000+ paid visitors to the museum who viewed the Wagner card without any disclaimer about the card’s dubious past and the strong suspicion it had been altered."

Maybe they can get Kevin Q's help with that one.

[Cardboard Junkie]

Money is a big incentive, as are sexual favors.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by atx840

That article also mentions Brent 's recent Ruth pickup...I recall the Goudey's being mentioned prior as suspect.

Hmmmm....what's going on with this "little" hobby of ours

+1....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"Sources indicate that a class-action lawsuit is in the works against Kendrick and the Hall of Fame on behalf of the 500,000+ paid visitors to the museum who viewed the Wagner card without any disclaimer about the card’s dubious past and the strong suspicion it had been altered."

Maybe they can get Kevin Q's help with that one.

Pete- what will the outcome be?

[ethicsprof]

I have at least a baker's dozen or so of Lionel Carter Collection cards and
no Harris.
Several years ago, before the death of Mr. Carter, we had quite a few threads dealing with our deepest respect for this fine gentleman. I bought and
continue to buy cards from his collection with no concern for what the holders may or may not be. Jeff L's keen Emory eye for these things continues!
all the best,
barry

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by ethicsprof

I have at least a baker's dozen or so of Lionel Carter Collection cards and
no Harris.
Several years ago, before the death of Mr. Carter, we had quite a few threads dealing with our deepest respect for this fine gentleman. I bought and
continue to buy cards from his collection with no concern for what the holders may or may not be. Jeff L's keen Emory eye for these things continues!
all the best,
barry

Barry- I meant no disrespect, sorry.

[ethicsprof]

I did not think any disrespect was intentional,kevin.
thank you for your kind response.
I remember these old times on the board before and during the period
of the theft of some of Mr. Carter's collection, his subsequent decision to
put his collection up for sale, his 90th birthday, and his death not long
after.

all the best, Kevin

Barry

[wonkaticket]

Many of the Harris cards came from the Copeland collection. Copeland was one of the first guys to pay big bucks for cherry cards. As most folks know scores of dealers took advantage of this and really took Copeland to the cleaners with scores of hacked cards.

It think this is why folks look at them the way they do.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I am trying to figure out why some people criticize certain collectors (Harris, with PSA for example), some cards probably questionable, but yet there is no criticism towards this collector (Carter) with SGC to be found anywhere on this board, (alot of cards questionable). Is it really that much PSA vs. SGC? Is Lionel Carter that reputable a guy and not Harris? I have a couple of T206s from his collection that are ridiculous, grade wise. Why no criticism his way? Just curious....

Kevin,

Over the years I have either owned or seen (in person) thousands of cards from Lionel Carter's personal collection and have yet to see "a lot" that are "questionable" as you put it. While there are some cards that are graded "authentic" due to trimming, there is no evidence that deceptive alterations were performed. But why would there be? The cards remained in Lionel Carter's albums until they were sent to SGC for grading. Any trimming that is present is noted, in some form, on the label of each card holder and was done, to the best of my knowledge, back in the day.

If anything, many of the cards that are graded from LC's collection sell for premiums, not just because of the pedigree, but because there are quite a few that are "NM-MT" or "Mint" but are downgraded severely due to very minor defects. For instance, I've sold quite a few Diamond Stars, Leafs, and Bowmans that had a visual appearance far better than the grade on the holder might otherwise indicate.

Finally, I think there's a certain "mystique" to Lionel Carter. We've all heard the stories but I think it's certainly relevant that Lionel Carter was one of the hobby pioneers and was active in the early cataloguing process. He was also a contemporary/good friend of Jefferson Burdick and obtained some of his cards from Burdick including his 1933 Goudey Lajoie. As the story goes, Lionel Carter was complaining to Burdick that he was missing one of the cards in the set so Burdick wrote back saying that he had a "couple extra" of card #106 and would send one to Carter for free. The irony is that I've seen Burdick's remaining Lajoie at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the one he sent away to his friend was a better card.

[wonkaticket]

Mike, great post thanks for sharing agree 100%.

[calvindog]

As Mike said, Carter cards sell for a premium because of Carter's standing in the hobby PLUS the great likelihood that his cards are NOT trimmed. His cards didn't trade hands and end up with card doctors over the years.

[MVSNYC]

Kevin- i have owned several Harris cards (some 9oc's, an 8 and a 6). in hind-sight, most were not good. i purchased some directly from the SCP sale, i still have the catalog picturing every card. many look short, or have odd miscuts. i think today, collectors generally steer clear of them, ALTHOUGH i think there are some nice (legit) cards in the group, but they must have fat borders to be considered.

[CaramelMan]

IMO, they are UNDERGRADED...

I think SGC showed zero favoritism and were actually quite tough on the fine gentlemen.

[Exhibitman]

I've been collecting T206 since the 1970s and I never saw purportedly high grade cards in the numbers that have been seen since the Copeland/Harris sales. I've even been in on finds of original accumulations of T cards and they simply do not remain in near pristine condition with normal handling--vg/ex to ex/mt is about the range for the nicest ones but with nice fat borders. My belief is that there are a hell of a lot of hacked T206 'high grade' cards out there. And SGC gets caught sometimes too. I owned an SGC 80 Waddell portrait. Beautiful card except for the trimming. I showed it to Dave Foreman at the National and he acknowledged it was bad and offered to buy it back on the spot to get it out of circulation. When SGC screws up they say so and they take steps to remedy the problem, which is one reason why many vintage card collectors take their work product over PSA's. PSA never admits error without a fistfight.

But I digress. Carter's cards get more respect for all of the reasons others have outlined above. I also know of several collectors who quietly collect Carter-pedigreed cards, which probably helps drive prices too.

[ullmandds]

That brings up a really good point Adam...that some newer high grade collectors may not be aware of...that all of these super high grade cards kinda just appeared outa nowhere!!!!!

That's why I am so skeptical of super high grade cards!

[g_vezina_c55]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

that brings up a really good point adam...that some newer high collectors may not be aware of...that all of these super high grade cards kinda just appeared outa nowhere!!!!!

That's why i am so skeptical of super high grade cards!

x 2

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

That brings up a really good point Adam...that some newer high grade collectors may not be aware of...that all of these super high grade cards kinda just appeared outa nowhere!!!!!

That's why I am so skeptical of super high grade cards!

Not out of nowhere. As a person who was collecting before grading and who has handled thousands of T206s in finds and bulk buys like Adam. I can tell you at one time you could lay 100 T206s on a table or stack them and look at them from the side very few were of the exact same size. In fact it wasn't rare or odd to see so many with huge oversized borders top and bottom.

The old timers used to trim down the oversized cards to fit in binder pages and later the oversized cards got whacked down for Copelands and grading games.

That's why today huge big oversized T206s are like the "white" rhino almost all gone and when you see one a huge deal is made out of it calling out its oversized because it seems odd to the newer collector or to let the new buyer know "hey you could trim this one down" wink...wink....

Cheers,

John

[steve B]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Not out of nowhere. As a person who was collecting before grading and who has handled thousands of T206s in finds and bulk buys like Adam. I can tell you at one time you could lay 100 T206s on a table or stack them and look at them from the side very few were of the exact same size. In fact it wasn't rare or odd to see so many with huge oversized borders top and bottom.

The old timers used to trim down the oversized cards to fit in binder pages and later the oversized cards got whacked down for Copelands and grading games.

That's why today huge big oversized T206s are like the "white" rhino almost all gone and when you see one a huge deal is made out of it calling out its oversized because it seems odd to the newer collector or to let the new buyer know "hey you could trim this one down" wink...wink....

Cheers,

John

That's pretty much how I recall it. Large cards seemed more common. But there were a lot of undersize ones too.
Looking at my own cards most of which I got pre-grading there's the whole range. I guess it can depend on where you draw the line for high grade too. The best I've gotten is an 84, With a couple cards having nice corners but tiny flaws keeping them in lower grades. (The bulk of my collection is only G, no need to grade most of those. )
In a way I'm glad I didn't try to chase perfect cards. I've got less to worry about as far as trimming.


Steve B

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

That brings up a really good point Adam...that some newer high grade collectors may not be aware of...that all of these super high grade cards kinda just appeared outa nowhere!!!!!

That's why I am so skeptical of super high grade cards!

This is exactly why have turned into an "armpit" collector. Not sure I could afford 7's, 8's and 9's anyway, but with all that has gone on, I just can't feel cozy about super high grade cards anymore. I have truly come to appreciate well loved cards.