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T206 REFERENCE / Reflections...T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here...
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpg .... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)]. Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206 An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series. One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363 meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca). In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle "error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints. So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here. And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________ INDEX Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters. Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted. Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards) Post #5......350/460 series backs identified Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" Post #96.....UZIT checklist Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds" Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ? Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one ! Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ? Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ? Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards Posts #801 >> 821.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ? Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards Posts #951 >> 960.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors. However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s). TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE / Reflections...T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here...
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Hi John Thanks for posting Steinfeldt.. .the batting pose of him is one of my favorite T206's. TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE / Reflections...T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here...
* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mont150x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ign460x209.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x14.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x13.jpg While this 1921 card of Smoky Joe Wood is obviously not a T206, it is a Blank-Back card. So, I posted it here because it's a mystery why he was not included in the T206 set. He started pitching for Boston (AL) in 1908. He Won 11, lost 7 in 1909 with an ERA = 2.18 American Lithographic could have featured Smoky Joe in their 460 Series (issued in early 1911), as they did with these 5 rookies, who started their careers in 1910: Josh Devore Russ Ford Chick Gandil Rube Geyer Zach Wheat Anyone here have any theories as to why Smoky Joe is not in the T206 set (and, for that matter not in the T205 set, which certain series were issued late in the Fall of 1911) ? I would like to hear them. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...okyJoeWood.jpg TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpg I cannot decide which of these three are my favorite backs; therefore, I'll start this show with examples of all three... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 (AB 460) and UZIT backs were printed concurrently. Research indicates that they were issued circa Jan-Feb 1911. I believe the AB 460 and the UZIT cards were in the last production runs of the T206 set. I equate them to the 1952 TOPPS and 1949 BOWMAN High number's series (which were issued in the Fall of their respective years). Short-printed, and quite difficult to find. And this is certainly very true for the AB 460 and UZIT T206 cards. My 14-year adventure is nearly complete, I have 72 of the 74 subjects printed with the AB 460 back . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sHand50xbx.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ffAB460x50.jpg McGraw is the favorite of my UZIT cards, since this card is unique (till some day a 2nd one is discovered) .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITxb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ZITxSGC30x.jpg My 1910 COUPON run includes the T206 six Super-Prints....plus 7 other T206 subjects. Willett is my nicest example . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Willett25b.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...NWillett25.jpg OK, let's see which T206 back(s) are your favorite. And, tell us what in particular appeals to you about the back....or whatever ? TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpg I received an email from a new member inquiring about the "Super-Prints" which I referred to in my above post. OK, most of you T206 enthusiasts are quite familiar with this term. For those who are new to this T206 game pictured below are the 6 super-print subjects. The significance of these 6 subjects were identified by Scot Reader in his excellent research which he documented in his book...."Inside T206". The super-prints are more available than any other T206's since these cards were printed with more tobacco brands. Furthermore, it is evident in many cases that these 6 subjects were Double-Printed on T206 sheets. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...poncobb50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uponChance.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sedkcap38x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edCobb75xb.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...onChanceBx.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...apChase50b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...everschase.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...schase25xb.jpg TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpg Well, since there haven't been any responses to this topic at this point, I'll give this thread a friendly bump by noting my 4th favorite T206 back....BROAD LEAF 350 (BL 350). And, my favorite guy with a BL 350 back is Mr. Chase. Theoretically, there were 190 BL 350 cards printed by American Lithographic. To date, 177 subjects have been confirmed with the BL 350 back. This is indeed a difficult T206 back to find. I expect that the remaining 13 unaccounted for guys will eventually being discovered. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uplcate75x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LxCOxCYx25.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ldDRUMx25b.jpg TED Z . |
Great posts, Ted. Except I don't think everyone in the hobby is completely on board with the Coupons being T206, as they are T213s. :) Otherwise, thanks for sharing.
And I am very much looking forward to March.....We can argue about this in person! And we will have to see where Danny lands on this issue. Should be fun. |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpg Here is my favorite T206 Minor League guy, Frank Delehanty, who is not only pictured with a BROAD LEAF 350 (BL 350) back, but my complete A - B - C - D array. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ntyABCDx50.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tyABCDx50b.jpg Speaking about the Minor League guys with the BL 350 back, here is their Checklist. (80 subjects). Note that 5 subjects are....Not yet confirmed (Nyc) Abbott Adkins Anderson Armbruster Arndt Barry (Milwaukee) Batch Beckley Blackburne Brain Brashear ………...(Nyc) Burchell Burke Butler Carr ………………….(Nyc) Casey Cassidy Chappelle Clancy Clark Clymer Congalton Cravath Davidson Delehanty (Louisville) Dessau Dorner Downs Dunn (Baltimore) Flanagan Freeman Ganzel Grimshaw Hall Hallman Hannifan Hayden Hinchman (Toledo) Hoffman (Providence) Jackson Kelley Kisinger Kruger Lattimore Lavender Malarkey Maloney McGann …………...(Nyc) McGinley McGinnity McGlynn Merritt Milligan Mitchell (Toronto) Moeller Moran (Providence)) Nattress Oberlin O'Brien O'Neill Phelan Pickering ………….(Nyc) Poland Quillen Randall Ritter Rudolph Schirm Schlafly …….……..(Nyc) Schreck Sharpe Shaw (Providence) Slagle Smith (Buffalo) Strang Taylor Thielmann White (Buffalo) Wright Irv Young TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpg I would be remiss, if I have not provided a Checklist for the Major League subjects with the BROAD LEAF 350 backs. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0blueChase.jpg 110 Major League subjects were printed with the BROAD LEAF 350 back. Note that 8 subjects are.... Not yet confirmed (Nyc) Abstein Arellanes Atz . . .. ..(Nyc) Barbeau Barry (A's) Beck Becker Bender (trees) Bescher (portrait) Bliss Bresnahan (bat Burns Bush Campbell Carrigan Chance (portrait-yellow) Charles Chase (portrait-blue) Chase (dark cap) . .(Nyc) Cobb (portrait- red) .....(Nyc) Eddie Collins Cree Dineen Donovan (throwing) Doolan (fielding) Downey (fielding) Dubuc Joe Dunn (Brooklyn) Dygert Easterly .. .. ..(Nyc) Egan Engle Evers (yellow sky) Ferguson .....(Nyc) Fiene (portrait) Fiene (throwing) Fletcher Fromme Gasper Graham (Boston) Graham (St Louis) Hartsel Hoblitzell Hoffman (St Louis) Hofman Howard (Chicago) Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Huggins (hands at mouth) Hulswitt Hunter Jones (Detroit) Killian (portrait) Knabe Knight (portrait) Knight (bat) Krause (portrait) Krause (pitching) Kroh LaPorte Lennox Livingstone Lord Maddox Marquard (portrait) Marshall Mathewson (dark cap) ...(Nyc) McAleese McBride McCormick McElveen McIntyre (Detroit) Milan Miller (Pittsburg) Mitchell (Cinci) Moran (Chicago) Moriarty Mullen (portrait) Murray (bat) Myers (bat) Myers (fielding) Oakes Paskert Perring Pfeister (seated) Phelps Phillippe Purtell Quinn Raymond Rhoades (hands at chest) Rhodes Schmidt (portrait) . ...(Nyc) Scott Snodgrass (bat) Speaker Stanage Starr Stephens .. . ..(Nyc) Street (portrait) Summers Sweeney (Boston) J. Tannehill (Washington) Thomas Titus Unglaub Warhop Willett (bat) Wilson Zimmerman TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpg Ok, since we are not getting any BROAD LEAF 350 responses here, perhaps let's try for the for "rarest of the rare"....how's about showing off your BROAD LEAF 460 cards. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eaf460back.jpg Theoretically, American Lithographic printed 35 subjects with the BROAD LEAF 460 back. As of today, 28 of these T206's are confirmed. These 7 unconfirmed cards remain. Ames (hands above head) Bender (no trees) Chance (portrait-yellow) Chase (blue) Chase (dark cap) Larry Doyle (bat) Magee (bat) It would be great see one (or 2) these T206's displayed here. Earlier this year Donlin (batting) was discovered. So, there is hope that more (if not all) of these 7 subjects will eventually be found with BROAD LEAF 460 backs.. TED Z . |
Designs
Personally, I like the Uzit's design best. Then EPDG.....then maybe Red Hindu....or Carolina Brights. Everyone has their own faves which is great.
I did a back run years ago and almost completed it before giving up on it. :o |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
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Hi Leon We think alike......UZIT is my favorite, too.. For two reasons BLUE is my favorite color, and the UZIT cards were printed in the last production runs of the T206's (circa Feb 1911). This sort of reminds me of collecting 1952 TOPPS Hi # cards (last-printed & short-printed). I'm curious, which T206 back run did you do ? http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITxb.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ZITxSGC30x.jpg TED Z . |
My favorites are the one's I have the least of lol :D My favorite design is Carolina Brights and my favorite back color is Red Hindu. Since I collect all front/back combinations, technically I collect runs of both. Collecting the Polar Bear back run was the most enjoyable.
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T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
Hi Ron
I agree with you, the Red HINDU back is a rich looking color. A patriotic display of backs...... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dHINDUx50b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...BlankBackb.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITxb.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yBlankBack.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...UZITxSGC30.jpg Ron I may have asked you this before.....what 5 subjects do you need to complete your POLAR BEAR run ? TED Z . |
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Cobb, Ty (Portrait - Red) Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest) O'Hara, Bill (St. Louis) Wheat, Zack Young, Cy (With Glove) |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
Hi Ron
As of now, I cannot help you with the POLAR BEAR cards. What are the two SOVEREIGN 460 cards you need ? My guess is the red Cobb is one of them. Have a Happy Thanksgiving. TED Z . |
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2 Attachment(s)
Heres a Broadleaf 460 for you Ted
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Steven, that would be a great card if it wasnt so OC ;)
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T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
Steven
T206's do not get too much scarcer than this....thanks for posting your Walter Johnson. TED Z . |
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Its enroute to Moser as we speak so look out for a fresh to the hobby PSA 7 Johnson/Broadleaf 460 by spring!
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12 Attachment(s)
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Steven, the problem with turning that into a well-centered 7 is you would double the pop report... Meanwhile, my favorite backs are Brown Old Mills, and I do collect them. |
Beautiful cards everyone! Ryan, youre cornering the Brown Old Mill market!
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T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
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Great stuff , Ryan... you is the "brown OLD MILL man". Looking forward to seeing you at the Philly Show next weekend. TED Z . |
AMerican Beauty
Ted,
Currently I am going for the AB 460s. I like the back and the players in the subset as well. If you have any toughies to move, let me know !! I missed a big one this week and am really in need of adding one to my collection. |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
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Hi Adam Sorry for the long delay in responding to you. I do not have any extra AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 cards to offer you now. Most T206 collectors do not appreciate how difficult this run of 74 cards is to complete. I've been working on this run since 2005. I have 72....I still need Camnitz (arms over head), and Larry Doyle (portrait). The PSA pop report indicates only one of each of these two are graded. None in the SGC pop report. If I pick up any new ones, I will certainly contact you. Incidentally, which AB 460 did you miss out on ? http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duffy100xb.jpg TED Z . |
Missed
Hi Ted,
Hope your well. Missed out on the McGraw. Definitely a tough one but another will show one day !! |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpg It fascinates me....the certain printing pattern similarities between the T206 & T205 sets. For example....(1) the 12 subjects in the T205 Minor League group, which is consistent with my theory that American Lithographic (ALC) printed the T206 and T205 sets with a basic template of 12 cards across a given sheet (19-inch track width printing press). (2) The AB = BL = CY = DRUM connection (see Posts #856 and #858) in this thread with respect to the T206 version of this printing pattern. And, you can refer to the current thread on Net54 for the T205 version of this pattern...... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=276902. This similarity is not serendipitous, it is by design. Displayed here is one of my T205 (75%) complete A = B = C = D runs. If anyone on this forum has a spare BROAD LEAF Wolter, please email me....... tedzan11@comcast.net http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...T205Wolter.jpg................. ? .. .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...T205Wolter.jpg .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...05WolterBk.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...205back25x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...05WolterBk.jpg The T205 group of 32 subjects which conform to this A = B = C = D pattern were printed with 8 additional Tobacco backs. I think a total of 12 different backs may be the most printed on any T205 subject. I may be wrong with this observation and I expect you T205 gurus will chime in. Feel free to correct me. Check-list of the T205 backs for this group of 32 subjects... ...http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...T205Wolter.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...205WolterB.jpg AMERICAN BEAUTY (black print) BROAD LEAF CYCLE DRUM HASSAN (Factory #30) HASSAN (Factory #649) HONEST LONG CUT PIEDMONT (Factory #25) PIEDMONT (Factory #42) POLAR BEAR SOVEREIGN SWEET CAPORAL (red print) And, just as in the T206 set, the T205 BROAD LEAF and DRUM and PIEDMONT Factory #42 cards are very tough to find. TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
Exactly 14 years ago this month, I broke up my variable-back T206 set (521 cards) to seek the ultimate T206 run of an all - PIEDMONT set.
PIEDMONT Mission accomplished just 11 months later, I then continued on an all - SOVEREIGN set. At the same time, I was also collecting T206's for an all - SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set. I completed the SOVEREIGN set (408 cards) in less than a year. The SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set took me 10 years to complete (468 cards) when I finally acquired the Eddie Plank card. One nice feature which these 3 sets have in common, is you don't have to get the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis variations). Furthermore, the Southern Leaguers were not printed with SOVEREIGN or this SWEET CAPORAL backs. And, here is my favorite T206 card in each of these 3 sets..... WOW ! all three of these cards are graded. Ted has gone over to the "dark side" :) PIEDMONT set http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohsonSGC40.jpg SOVEREIGN set http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnsonPSA4.jpg SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...weetCap150.jpg TED Z . |
Awesome update, Ted.
You set the bar so high. |
Ted, I find that Piedmont and Sovereign 150s can tend to be off center top-bottom, with a smaller top border. But that Sweet Cap 150s (fact 30 or otherwise) do not suffer a similar fate. Thoughts?
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T206 REFERENCE....what backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?
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Happy New Year, Ryan Your observation is correct. Especially, with certain PIEDMONT 150 cards. The Green Cobb is one of the best examples of off-center top-bottom, with a smaller top border. Here is the Cobb in my PIEDMONT set........... http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...iedmont150.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edmont150b.jpg TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...B350frameX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ADLEAF350b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350HaydenX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ldDRUMx25b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpg I have identified a group of 36 subjects in the 350-only Series which are unique in this Series in that they share a common pattern. They were NOT PRINTED with these four popular T206 backs....CAROLINA BRIGHTS, El PRINCIPE de GALES, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR. The majority (190 subjects) in the 350-only Series were printed with AMERICAN BEAUTY, BROAD LEAF, CYCLE, DRUM backs. And, including the CB, EPDG, OM, and PB backs. Although, this group of 36 subjects is printed with the A - B - C - D backs, unlike the other 350-only Series subjects, these cards will not be found with CB, EPDG, OM, and PB backs I find this quite interesting, in that it tells us that these 36 guys are sort of "exclusive" with respect to the other 154 subjects in the 350-only Series. Furthermore, it suggests that these 36 subjects were printed on a sheet of their own (composed of multiples of a 12 x 3 card format) .and, this press run was very early in the game (circa Spring of 1910). I base this on my understanding that the CAROLINA BRIGHTS and POLAR BEAR backs were not printed until the Summer of 1910. I'm sharing this information with you guys, who get a big kick out of putting together T206 runs. So you do not have to go off on a wild-goose chase searching for certain cards that really do not exist. Checklist of this "exclusive" group of 36 subjects that are 350-only series No-Prints with respect to CAROLINA BRIGHTS, EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR backs. Arndt Becker Butler Cassidy Charles Donovan (throwing) Doolan (fielding) Downs Fletcher Hoffman (St Louis) Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Huggins (hands at mouth) Hunter Killian (portrait) Knabe Lennox Malarkey Marquard (portrait) Marshall McBride McElveen McGinley McIntyre (Detroit) Mitchell (Cincinnati) Mitchell (Toronto) Moran (Providence) Myers (batting) Paskert Phelan Poland Rhoades (hands at chest) Schmidt (portrait) Starr Street (portrait) Summers Any inputs regarding this subject are really appreciated. Note..... In my rush to post this, I forgot to include in my original post here that the EPDG backs are also No-Prints within this group of 36. EPDG has been included now. TED Z . |
Great info !
Wow Ted. Im always looking for patterns within the set to help me understand how everything fits together, and this is certainly a neat pattern that you have found. Thank you for sharing! It certainly seems that these 36 were printed, as you said, exclusively of the others in the 190 card group.
How does this information fit with the double name card of Rossman? Rossman is 350 only but does not belong in the 190 group because he isnt available with the ABCD backs. However, there is a P350 double name card of Rossman with McBrides name at the top. One would think any double name card involving one of your 36 group would have BOTH players from the 36 grouping. I hope my wording of all of that is somewhat coherent. Id appreciate your thoughts. Thank you again for sharing the group of 36. Sonny |
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http://www.retro-gaming.it/videogioc...wargames20.jpg The T206 set is one of the most fun sets to research!! I'll have to compare this list with the Tolstoi's and their populations compared to others from the main print group. |
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
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Your wording is perfect. OK, I'll start with displaying my simulated 48-card sheet of 350 Series T206's. I constructed this sheet years ago to get an idea how American Litho (ALC) printed these cards. This sheet represents the 48 subjects (Major Leaguers) in the 1910 COUPON set. It is the only realistic source of how ALC printed the T206 cards. In this case, ALC simply took an early 350 Series pre-printed sheet of cards and printed the COUPON brand on their backs. We have evidence as to the timeline of the COUPON's issue date from Macon (GA) newspaper clippings (dated Feb 1910). In the upper left 2 rows of this simulated sheet you will find McBride and Rossman. Rossman retired from MLB in Sept 1909. Therefore, he isn't part of the gang of 190 subjects printed with the A-B-C-D backs which were introduced by ALC in the Summer of 1910. Now, the 36 subject sheet, which I am referring to, was printed early in the game (circa Spring of 1910). I base this on my understanding that the CAROLINA BRIGHTS and the POLAR BEAR backs were not printed until the Summer of 1910. 1910 COUPON (T213-1) Major League (48) subjects http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Sheet12xxx.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sSheet12xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eSheet12xx.jpg TED Z . |
Thank you
Thank you Ted. That makes perfect sense. Rossman was grouped with McBride on a sheet printed early in the 350 only series. Then Rossman was pulled early in the series (hence he is only available with P350, SOV350 and SC 25 and 30 backs). Your group of 36 is a configuration that was printed shortly thereafter. I appreciate the insight.
The more I learn, the more questions I have. Lol. Sonny |
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
Hi Sonny
You have it correct. Feel free to ask me any questions regarding T206 cards. And, I will try to answer them. TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
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Ron I would bet a T206 (or two) that approx. 1/2 of these 36 guys were printed with TOLSTOI backs. American Litho started printing the TOLSTOI brand early in the 350 Series game. I look forward to your findings. TED Z . |
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http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/Tolstoi37.jpg |
Here's a scan of a Danny Hoffman Tolstoi shared by Pat R.
http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/dannyhoffmantolstoi.jpg |
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...B350frameX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ADLEAF350b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350HaydenX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ldDRUMx25b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpg Hi Ron Great stuff, thanks for posting your TOLSTOI list regarding this group of 36 subjects. Indeed, ALC printed the TOLSTOI backs very early in the game when they started printing the 350-only Series cards. TED Z . |
A couple
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Here are a couple of my low population Tolstoi cards but they are not related to the 36 we were talking about. Only one Willett has been graded between PSA and SGC. The PSA one is in the current Heritage "David Hall" Auction. I had a PSA 4 Zimmerman but traded it for some really great cards but still at times regret it. I guess that's why I don't really trade anymore. I have exactly 100 different Tolstoi's. Hope to add more to my set this year.
http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/tolstoifront.jpg http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/tolstoiback.jpg |
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...B350frameX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ADLEAF350b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350HaydenX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ldDRUMx25b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpg Hey guys, Getting back to the main topic....my research has identified one more subject to add to this group of T206's in the 350-only Series. It appears to me that Bob Hall was not printed with CAROLINA BRIGHTS, EPDG, OLD MILL, nor POLAR BEAR backs, so we can include in him in this unique club. Now this 37th subject does not alter the configuration of their printed sheet. Thirty seven subjects were printed on a 36-card sheet by simply replacing a particular subject (due to a player's retirement during that press run) with another subject. American Lithographic did exactly this with the 37 cards printed with AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) cards. Nichols (who retired) was replaced with Stahl. For more information regarding this, check-out Post #39 in this thread. New checklist of this "exclusive" group of 37 subjects that are 350-only series No-Prints with respect to CAROLINA BRIGHTS, EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR. Arndt Becker Butler Cassidy Charles Donovan (throwing) Doolan (fielding) Downs Fletcher Hall Hoffman (St Louis) Howell (portrait) Huggins (portrait) Huggins (hands at mouth) Hunter Killian (portrait) Knabe Lennox Malarkey Marquard (portrait) Marshall McBride McElveen McGinley McIntyre (Detroit) Mitchell (Cincinnati) Mitchell (Toronto) Moran (Providence) Myers (batting) Paskert Phelan Poland Rhoades (hands at chest) Schmidt (portrait) Starr Street (portrait) Summers Any inputs regarding this subject are really appreciated. TED Z . |
Hi Ted, I agree on the Bob Hall. What about these 5 guys? I updated my list with the Bob Hall.
Bobby Byrne Monte Cross Mike Mowrey Bill O'Hara NY Claude Rossman |
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
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OK, so WHO replaced WHO ? ? These T206's were printed circa Spring 1910....so, your guess is as good as mine. TED Z . |
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Here's a few numbers I found looking at my spreadsheets. By using the 202 card (350 Only) list, 136 cards with Polar Bear 66 cards without Polar Bear 42 cards without CB, EPDG, OM, PB 20 cards with CB, EPDG, OM but without PB 3 cards with CB, EPDG but without OM, PB 1 card with CB but without EPDG, OM, PB |
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
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Hi Ron Bobby Byrne, Monte Cross, Mike Mowrey, Bill O'Hara NY, and Claude Rossman are part of a group of 23 subjects in the 350-only Series that were NOT printed with the AB - BL - CY - DR backs. This "exclusive" group of 37 subjects are part of the 190 subjects which were printed with the AB - BL - CY - DR backs. TED Z . |
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