Hi Ted,
Allow me to offer a more detailed explanation for my position:

The years 1909-11 were fiercely competitive for the various American tobacco brands, and they went to great lengths to sign up baseball players and to issue literally millions of cards each to include in their cigarette packs. This was a major marketing endeavor that turned out to be wildly successful.

Ty Cobb tobacco, on the other hand, had no part in this at all. If they printed only a single sheet of 100 cards, as you suggest, that sounds to me like no more than a one-day marketing campaign, limited to a very small geographic area. Yes, they "borrowed" the red image of Cobb, and designed the back to conform with what was circulating in America, but they were not at all competing with the other brands. How could they? How could a hundred cards compete with the millions being produced elsewhere?

And even if the American Lithograph Company printed them, that in itself doesn't make them part of the national promotion. So I will go so far as to say they have nothing at all to do with T206's, other than they have a similar appearance, something not uncommon in the 1910-era.

That said, if we took a survey, I'm guessing the majority would say they are T-206's. And that's okay, I don't mind taking a minority position. And why are you and I the only ones discussing this? Don't others want to take a break from the PSA/PWCC debacle and talk real baseball cards?:)

INDEX (upgraded)
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpg
.... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT



This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.

And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.

Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist.....where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back
 

Barry

1st, I will answer your last comment regarding "the PSA/PWCC debacle". It has been "sucking" most of the oxygen out of this forum for weeks. It's not surprising that you and I are
the only guys here talking about this Ty Cobb subject.

My guess that approx. 100 cards were printed by American Litho (and then shipped to the Reidsville Plant in N.C.) may be an underestimation However, with only 22 of these cards
have been discovered to date, I may not be too far off on this number.

Perhaps, some more guys will chime in here with some interesting opinions.


TED Z
.

I'll be the third wheel here for a second. If we think of T206 as the sum of a math (or maths, if you're an Anglophile) equation, it would look like this:

ALC + ATC + (national or regional retail distribution) + (1909-11) + "white border" format = T206

If one of those is absent, then the answer can't be T206. Leaving aside that T213-1 might be the same sum, the Ty Cobb most likely fails on the distribution and maybe date of issue. While Ty Cobb tins exist, linking them to an inserted card is problematic at best. Given the sheer volume of tobacco and other tins people saved - go to any antique mall if you have any doubt - tins of the most popular player of his day would've been saved as much as Prince Albert or whatever. Yet there are very few known, suggesting a limited retail presence. And, if the date is also ambiguous, that's another strike against Ty.

You're never the third wheel Judd...and isn't it time for another get together?

Yes it is. If we start now, we should get it all together by October or so

That soon?:)

Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back
 

Hi Judson

There is no ambiguity regarding the date of the Ty Cobb Tobacco tin...…

Newspaper excerpt....The Reidsville Review....Nov 16 1909

"The Penn Tobacco Co. began this week placing on the market a new brand
of plug cut granulated smoking tobacco which will be encased in tin boxes.
The name of the brand is "Ty Cobb". It should be a fine seller, for there is
plenty of quality."


Furthermore, my research indicates that the date of the Ty Cobb card is definitely Circa..early 1910 for several reasons, two of which are:

1.....the red portrait Cobb was printed when American Lithographic started printing their 350 Series cards (Circa..late 1909 - early 1910).

2....Senator Richard Russell, whose tobacco card collection includes the Ty Cobb/TY COBB card, acquired his collection during 1909-1910. * *
He stopped smoking and collecting tobacco cards at age 14 when his parents enrolled him in the Gordon Military Institute in 1911.
The make up of Russell's 507-card T206 set indicates to us that the majority of his collecting days were in 1910.


* * note
Biography of Richard B. Russell, Jr.


TED Z
.

I agree that the article is consistent with the planned marketing of Ty Cobb tobacco, but I am still dubious about the actual marketing. The sheer absence of more surviving tins in the collecting community makes me think that the plans of Penn Tobacco went nowhere.
And while the Russell collection is some proof of the date of the card (as opposed to the date of the tin), I'd be hard pressed to say that is dispositive. It could conceivably have been a later gift to him as a State Representative or Governor by someone who knew of his love of the game. As to the image, that was used throughout the decade, which doesn't preclude a later date of issue.
All in all, and not (necessarily) to stir the pot, I think T213-1 has a better claim to be included in the T206 but..

Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back
 

First, regarding your last statement, I absolutely agree that the 1910 COUPON set of 68 cards should be considered as an integral part of the T206 set.

As a youngster, Russel traveled with his Dad (a Judge who often traveled 50 miles to Atlanta) which could be how he acquired his Ty Cobb card. However, how do you account
for the tobacco stains on some of these Ty Cobb cards which had to be because some were inserted in the Tobacco Tins. Which proves that these cards were issued during the
1910 timeframe.


TED Z
.

Trying to unsubscribe, carry on. :-)

I guess that I'm naive, but I'm shocked that Russell was already an ex-smoker at the age of 14.

Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back
 

Russell started smoking at a very early age. He was forced to stop smoking during his 4 years at the Military Institute. As an adult he continued to smoke.

Judging from his tobacco card collection (1000+ cards), he smoked PIEDMONT and OLD MILL cigarettes


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 350 checklist.....let's see your CYCLE's
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ardP350x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tyDowns12x.jpg


CYCLE 350 cards are an integral part of the A-B-C-D connection ** in the 350 Series of the T206 set. American Litho printed the A - B - C - D cards...circa Summer 1910.

The CYCLE 350 cards appear to be easier to find than the AB 350, or BL 350, or DRUM for a given subject. I would be interested if any of you have had a tough time finding
a CYCLE 350 card of any T206 ?

** Note The significance of the A-B-C-D connection in the 350 series is read in thread...… T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"


A - B - C - D connection
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...B350frameX.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...blueChaseX.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350HaydenX.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DRUMx25b_1.jpg


Complete CYCLE 350 checklist..... 190 subjects

Abbott
Abstein
Adkins
Anderson
Arellanes
Armbruster
Arndt
Atz
Barbeau
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Becker
Beckley
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain

Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Butler
Campbell
Carr
Carrigan
Casey
Cassidy
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chappelle
Charles
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Clancy
Clark
Clymer

Cobb (portrait-red)
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dineen
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Easterly
Egan

Engle
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Fletcher
Freeman
Fromme
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Grimshaw
Hall
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)

Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hulswitt
Hunter
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Knabe
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)

Kroh
Kruger
Laporte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Malarkey
Maloney
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall
Mathewson (dark cap)
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
Mc Elveen
McGann
McGinley

McGinnity
McGlynn
McIntyre (Detroit)
Merritt
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Mitchell (Cinci)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moran (Providence)
Moriarty
Mullin (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin

O'Brien
O'Neill
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelan
Phelps
Phillippe
Pickering
Poland
Purtell
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm

Schlafly
Schmidt (portrait)
Schreck
Scott
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Starr
Stephens
Strang
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielmann

Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson
Wright
Irv Young
Zimmerman


TED Z
.

I only really follow the Providence players and I've had a hard time finding a Cycle for Lavender or Shaw. The AB, BL, and Drums aren't very available either.

T206 REFERENCE / Reflections, etc.....CYCLE 350 checklist.....let's see your CYCLE's
 

Hi Rich

I've seen a couple of AB 350 cards and a couple of CYCLE 350 cards of Hunky Shaw, but no BL 350, or DRUM.

Lavender.....one AB 350, and no CYCLE 350, no BL 350, and no DRUM.

I think some of the Minor Leaguers were short-printed with the A - B -C - D backs. I will do some homework on this subject.


TED Z
.

Thanks, Ted. I've got an AB for Lavender but have never seen the others except for the BL of Shaw that was sold on the BST board here a few years ago. Wish I had been on the board then.

T206 REFERENCE...CYCLE 350 checklist...So, where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone...
 

......a long time passing......

I guess it's up to me to start this CYCLE 350 show. I choose Chase from my collection...…



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...E350xSGC45.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350xSGC45b.jpg


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE...CYCLE 350 checklist...So, where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?
 

Shown here is my best looking CYCLE 350 along with the other cards of my Frank Delehanty A - B - C - D connection.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ntyABCDx50.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tyABCDx50b.jpg


TED Z
.

Please forgive but is there a link to a copy of the most up to date monster spreadsheet above somewhere.

I had it once and then lost it. I actually just found an old computer from 2006 that I was able to start up and did find a copy... but I expect it may be out of date.

Thanks,
Chuck

Please forgive but is there a link to a copy of the most up to date monster spreadsheet above somewhere.

I had it once and then lost it. I actually just found an old computer from 2006 that I was able to start up and did find a copy... but I expect it may be out of date.

Thanks,
Chuck

T206 REFERENCE...CYCLE 350 checklist...So, where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?
 

Hi Chuck

I think you are referring to Bill Brown's T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet, which he posted on Net54 in 2006. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for his spreadsheet.
It was a great start back then in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of. Here is a link to his Net54 post......T206 Super-Set


TED Z
.

Here are a few lower grade cycles:

Attachment 357011

Thanks Ted! I posted an inquiry in that thread. Hope I can get another copy.

T206 REFERENCE...CYCLE 350 checklist...So, where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?
 

Hi Rich

Nice assortment of CYCLE 350 cards.

Thanks for displaying them.


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE...CYCLE 350 checklist...So, where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?
 

Just a friendly bump by showing-off this nice looking CYCLE 350......


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...onCYCLE350.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...E350Hayden.jpg


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat).... Post your inputs and/or cards
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nerRptx207.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SC150x30xz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350x460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ardP350x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...BatP460x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...06MAGIEx13.jpg



The Lajoie (with bat) card has been quite a challenge to find, especially when trying to complete a set (or a run) with respect to certain tougher T206 backs.
For instance, this Lajoie has yet to be discovered with a Black LENOX back. But, one Lajoie has been confirmed with the Brown LENOX back.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LENOXx37_1.jpg



Lajoie with these 3 backs are considerably tough. Especially the AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT. When I started my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 run 13 years ago,
my beat-up AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 Lajoie (shown below) was the only one known.

4 confirmed ………………………………. 2 confirmed …………………..…………….. 2 confirmed
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...le460x25bx.jpg . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...auty460b34.jpg . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITxb.jpg




On display here are the Lajoie cards from my four T206 sets, respectively, of which I have "completed".

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dmontAB460.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...montAB460b.jpg


SWEET CAPORAL Factory #30 set (468 cards, only missing Wagner).
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SC350sgc40.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C350sgc40b.jpg



Stay tuned for additional information regarding the Lajoie (with bat) card.


TED Z
.

One of my favorite card fronts. Unfortunately I only have 2. My PSA 2 Polar Bear which is no big deal and needed for my Polar Bear Subset, and then there is this one...…….

http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/lajoie.jpg

Here's my best Nap batting...one of the best images in the set in my opinion

My cycle 460. These cycle 460s can be real tough sometimes

T206 REFERENCE.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat).... Post your inputs and/or cards
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nerRptx207.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SC150x30xz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350x460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ardP350x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...BatP460x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...06MAGIEx13.jpg


Furthermore, for you who are working on a Lajoie (bat) back run, you will be happy to know you need not hunt for a DRUM, nor a BROAD LEAF 460, nor a red HINDU.
American Lithographic did NOT PRINT this Lajoie with these three scarce backs. Nonetheless, if I recall correctly, this Lajoie can be found with 15 different T206 T-brands.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DRUMx25b_1.jpg . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eaf460back.jpg . . . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/rh.jpg



I'm curious......does anyone on this forum own the unique BROWN LENOX card of this Lajoie ?

It would be a really cool card to see.


TED Z

.

T206 REFERENCE.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat).... Post your inputs and/or cards
 

RON....JAY....RYAN

Great looking Lajoie's. Thanks for posting them.

This image of Lajoie, in my opinion, is one of the better (non-portrait) poses in the T206 set.


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat).... Post your inputs and/or cards
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...lCYoung12x.jpg
……. Two Pennsylvania guys …….


At my age, I'm lucky if I can remember what I ate for dinner yesterday :)

However, my recollection of...."15 different T206 T-brands"....printed with this Lajoie card is accurate. So, here they are:

AMERICAN BEAUTY 460
CYCLE 460
EPDG
BROWN LENOX
OLD MILL
PIEDMONT 350, Factory #25
PIEDMONT 350-460, Factory #25
PIEDMONT 350-460, Factory #42
POLAR BEAR
SOVEREIGN 350
SWEET CAPORAL 350, Factory #25
SWEET CAPORAL 350, Factory #30
SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 (overprint)
TOLSTOI
UZIT


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350x460x12.jpg



TED Z

.

Can my Lajoie at least get an honorable mention on that list? lol, :rolleyes: This card front design as I have mentioned, is one of my favorites. I think because it almost falls into the Portrait category but its a Batting pose. Same reason I like the Bill Bradley With Bat, which also follows the same back list, with the addition of the Lenox Black I think.

http://www.t206resource.com/Gallery%...joie%20Bat.jpghttp://www.t206resource.com/Gallery%...dley%20Bat.jpg

I believe no back run is complete without the no-print, if such a front-back combo exists. In this case it does, so I agree with Ron that at worst it should get honorable mention on the list of Lajoie w/ bat, back combos

It used to belong to Rob Dewolf, and to the best of my knowledge it still does, but Rob was banned here about three years ago.

If you want to see the card it is pictured in the thread Subject: Front/ Back Combos. My lack of computer skills once again prevents me from posting a link to that thread. Sorry. :(

T206 REFERENCE.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat).... Post your inputs and/or cards
 

Sean

OK, here's the Lajoie with the brown LENOX back. Check out Post #25 in this link.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ht=brown+lenox


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat).... Post your inputs and/or cards
 

Ryan

I'm for bestowing honorable mention to Blank-Back (B-B) T206's; but, the problem I have regarding the B-B phenomena is that it's random.

We have mapped out the various T-brands for each and every T206 subject....we know what to hunt for.

The B-B card are an unknown. You can continue on a "wild goose" chase for a B-B of a particular T206 for many years and never, ever find it.

Furthermore, TPG dudes are not always certain if a T206 is a B-B, and therefore they label some "skinned". That's exactly what they did with
my Schulte.....

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ackSchulte.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ckSchulteB.jpg


TED Z
.

Hi Ted, Ryan was referring to my comment on the Lajoie Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 "No Print" card. I agree that Blank Backs can be random but the "No Print" Sweet Caporals follow your 350/460 series Group B list perfectly, even though they are basically Scrap cards.


Here is a little T206 History of the "No Prints". It's only my history with them and I'm sure there's missing pieces that I don't know about. I figured I'd share this since David Hall is selling his amazing collection.

I remember in 2010 I was just starting to study all the different combinations and how they lined up. At that time, I was left with two groups of cards I was studying. One group of 29 cards and the other group of 28 cards. Nearly 4 years later, I found my first and second "No Print" and they were both from the 28 card group. Almost 2 years later is when a large group of them started showing up on eBay and they went undetected for a couple weeks until someone posted here on Net54 questioning them and basically costing me a lot more money. That large group of cards was slowly auctioned off over a years time. 27 of the 28 card group showed up during that time. Between 2 and 8 cards of each of the 27 cards were discovered at that time. The only thing was that my checklist from 2010 still showed a card missing from the group that sold on eBay. That card was the Nap LaJoie With Bat. I was determined to find one since I had the other 27 cards. The odds told me that with enough searching, I would find one, and I did. Once I had it in my hands, I shared my checklist with Pete Gustafson, who at the time, we were both working together to corner the market on these cards. Between the two of us, we owned 75 to 80 percent of all the "No Prints" that sold on eBay that year. Once I shared my checklist with Pete, he asked if he could share it with David Hall, which I said yes. After that, things got a bit confusing because I started seeing my checklist show up on posts here on Net54 which was fine, but the posts also said that David had a complete set of the 28 cards. I figured it was possible but it was only a week after I released the checklist. It was then that someone questioned if David had a Lajoie With Bat because one was never seen sold on eBay during that year. I basically knew what David had, since Pete sold his group to David, and I kept track of what I won, what Pete won, and what neither of us won. It was eventually confirmed that David was short a few cards from the 28 card subset, including Lajoie. I still own 54 of the 107 "No Print" cards that were sold that year, along with my original 2 cards and the Lajoie.

T206 REFERENCE.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat).... Post your inputs and/or cards
 

Good morning Ron and Ryan,

Sorry, but I misconstrued Ryan's post (#735). My bad.

Ron, I really appreciate your story regarding the 28 cards from the 350/460 series with the SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs which were discovered in recent years.
It was nice to see my long-ago theory regarding this group of T206's confirmed by you.

Thanks again,

TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE / Reflections......
 

I received an email from a Net54 reader regarding my Schulte card and it's back. I'm convinced that 85% of the back
of this card is a legitimate blank back. The upper left part of the back is actually paper loss, which may have resulted
from this card having been pasted in an album.

SGC graded it as "Skinned". Which I strongly disagree with them. And, of course they remarked...."that's my opinion".
Their professional opinion deems it otherwise !


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ackSchulte.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ckSchulteB.jpg


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE/Reflections.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DMONT350bx.jpg
…………….. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………..


As most of you T206 collectors know by now, these 11 subjects in the 150/350 Series are extremely difficult to find with the PIEDMONT 350 back.
They are also quite tough to find with the EPDG back. These subjects were not printed with the usual SOVEREIGN 350, nor SWEET CAPORAL 350,
nor the various 350 series Assorted backs (as all the other subjects in the 150/350 Series).

This strange curiosity was first explored on this forum back in 2007, when I discovered the Carl Lundgren (Cubs) card with a PIEDMONT 350 back.
This Lundgren card prompted me to post a thread in which we ran several surveys on certain 150/350 Series cards. Check-it-out...… Elite 11

Here's an interesting anecdote I'll include in this post. Some years ago at the Cleveland National a well-dressed gentleman came to my booth, and
sat down and introduced himself.....David Hall. By then, David's Master T206 set comprised of 4000+ cards. He asked me about these rare T206's,
which I refer to as the "Elite 11". He chuckled at the fact that these T206's were considered quite rare with PIEDMONT 350 backs. I recall, the only
Elite 11 card in his collection at that time was Ewing. I had 4 of these cards at my table, and he purchased them. More importantly, it was the start
of a very nice friendship.

OK, I'll start this show with my Elite 11 cards...…

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...n4versions.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...n4versions.jpg



.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...iGanJonKar.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...anJonKarBk.jpg


.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...lSchShaSpe.jpg
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...chShaSpeBk.jpg



TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE/Reflections.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them
 

Additional info...…

Lundgren (Cubs) was printed with only three backs (PIEDMONT 150, 350, and EPDG).

Ewing and Tom Jones were also printed with SWEET CAPORAL 150, Factory #649 (overprint).


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE/Reflections.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DMONT350bx.jpg
…………….. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………..


I have been tracking the source of these Elite 11 cards since 2008, when I acquired a mid-size lot of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta.
He told me that these cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta. This collection was strictly PIEDMONT cards; and, I was
pleasantly surprised to find 8 of the Elite 11 cards in this group.

Then approx. 7 years ago, another original collection of T206's was discovered in the Atlanta area. And, this collection included 7 Elite 11 cards.

Furthermore, 2 years ago Turner Engle (asoriano) reported here of an original collection from Georgia.. Georgia Find: 878 T205's and T206's
In this collection were four Elite 11 cards, including the very scarce Spencer card.

It appears that Factory #25 shipped PIEDMONT cigarette packs (containing 1st print run PIEDMONT 350 cards) to Georgia. I say this since some
of the Joe Doyle Nat'L cards have been found in T206 collections originating from Georgia. Best example of this is Senator Richard Russell's T206
collection. It is the first known source of the Elite 11 cards. Russell's original set also includes the Joe Doyle Nat'L card. Russell lived in Winder, a
town not far from Atlanta. He collected Tobacco cards as a teenager during 1909 - 1910.

To date, my records indicate that 4 original collections of T206's discovered in the surrounding area of Atlanta include the rare T206's that I refer
to as the Elite 11 cards.

Please chime in here if you have any of these Elite 11 cards of which you are certain of their provenance.

Thank you,


TED Z
.

The Elite 11 card group is one of many favorites I have in the master front/back set. I'll have to dig the cards out and get some scans to post. I'm currently lacking Jones and Lundgren in Piedmont 350's and Dahlen in EPDG.

It might be time to do another survey on how many of these cards are out there. I know there have been some new discoveries since the last count was conducted. Population reports are not accurate at all. I know for a fact that Spencer in SGC, one was cracked and is currently raw and another was crossed over to PSA, David Hall's SGC 60 to a PSA 4.5.

T206 REFERENCE/Reflections.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them
 

Hi Ron

Thanks for chiming in here regarding this subject. It too, is one of my favorite group of T206 cards (as are the Exclusive 12 group).

And, your are correct that we can not depend on the pop reports to provide an accurate count on these Elite 11 cards. Every SGC graded card
which I have sold to David Hall is crossed over to PSA. And, what is interesting is that PSA for the most part gives him a lower grade than SGC.

However, the pop reports are useful in indicating the relative scarcity of the PIEDMONT 350 vs PIEDMONT 150 cards of these Elite 11 subjects.
For examples:

Ewing = 9 - PIEDMONT 350 vs 244 - PIEDMONT 150 cards.

Spencer = 6 - PIEDMONT 350 vs 243 - PIEDMONT 150 cards.


Yes, by all means show us your Elite 11 cards.


TED Z
.

T206 Total Master Set
 

Ted: As of July, 2019, how many T206's have been confirmed , that is, including all variations and backs etc.

T206 REFERENCE/Reflections.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them
 

Hi Mike

Last time I heard, David Hall's Master set comprises of 5200 - 5300 different T206's.

I don't have an exact number as of today.


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE/Reflections.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DMONT350bx.jpg
…………….. The 150 Series backs associated with Schulte (front view)……………..


An astute Net54 reader emailed me, asking why I have not made mention of the Schulte card (with the PIEDMONT 350) back in this discussion ?
Well, until I have seen this Schulte with an El PRINCIPE de GALES (EPDG) back, I do not consider this Schulte as part of the Elite 11 group.

My guess is this lone Schulte card with a PIEDMONT 350 back is a printing anomaly. Furthermore, it is hand cut, therefore it's most likely a scrap.
If, and when, an EPDG card of Schulte is discovered then I will include it with the Elite 11 group. We will then refer to this group as the....Elite 12.
Till then, I continue to consider this Schulte as a 150-only Series subject.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...150Schulte.jpg


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE/Reflections.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them
 

Hi Mike

Citing David Hall's numbers from his Master T206 set is not really the best answer to your question......since, his set is not 100% complete. But, it's certainly very close.

Upon going thru my records, I figure that all the known (plus the predicted ones that have yet to be confirmed) front/back permutations result in a number very close to
5400 different T206's. This is still a work in progress for me.

The Blank-back T206's, of course, do not enter into any calculation here because of their randomness....and are therefore unpredictable.



TED Z
.