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  #1  
Old 11-03-2017, 07:48 AM
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Default What are the rarest backs (not just T206 or T Cards)

I just picked up a T215 Pirate back, which goes well with my T206 Brown Old Mill and Brown Lenox. I am very well versed in T206 and the scarcity of T206 backs, but less familiar with other T and E card backs. Wanted to get your take on what are say the 5-10 rarest backs of pre-war cards? To clarify, I am not interested in the front/back combo, and I am talking straight up baseball card back/advertisements(not post cards, cabinets, etc.)? And of course, links to previous threads are helpful and expected (I doubt this is a novel question). Thanks
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File Type: jpg T215 Pirate Frank Chance BACK Close Up.jpg (8.0 KB, 591 views)
File Type: jpg Brown OM Back.jpg (5.8 KB, 585 views)
File Type: jpg Brown Lenox Back.jpg (7.7 KB, 597 views)
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  #2  
Old 11-03-2017, 07:54 AM
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I have always liked the backs a lot and have collected them for years....Lots of rare ones out there. The W575 (E121 type) card series has quite a few. (or are you only talking Ts and Es?)
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  #3  
Old 11-03-2017, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
I have always liked the backs a lot and have collected them for years....Lots of rare ones out there. The W575 (E121 type) card series has quite a few. (or are you only talking Ts and Es?)
Good question. I like the backs because of the advertisements -- its Americana and living history, in addition to sports memorabilia; an antique so to speak. To that end, I think those 1920's cards (which frankly I don't know much about) are very relevant and worth considering/ranking. However, I am most interested in the "T206-ish" cards -- like 1903-1915 -- the T's & E's....
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Good question. I like the backs because of the advertisements -- its Americana and living history, in addition to sports memorabilia; an antique so to speak. To that end, I think those 1920's cards (which frankly I don't know much about) are very relevant and worth considering/ranking. However, I am most interested in the "T206-ish" cards -- like 1903-1915 -- the T's & E's....
No worries. Then this T216 VE will suffice. Though they are seen occasionally now it took me around 4-5 yrs to get my first one. And HOF'ers are really tough.
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:53 AM
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Big surprise coming from me, but without counting the overprints or error backs, I think the red crofts may be one of the most difficult. I've been able to account for only 16 examples in total though there are likely more still hidden away in collections. Here are mine and, yes, I know i have a problem



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E/T Young Backrun - Need E90-1, E92 black Crofts Candy, E92 Dockman, E101, E105, T216 (all versions)
E92 Red Crofts - Anyone especially Barry, Shean, and Evers
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  #6  
Old 11-03-2017, 08:59 AM
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I am unsure how difficult these are, or even you have any interest in subject matter beyond baseball. I just bought these on eBay. 1 is an n101 dukes tobacco card. The other shares the same front with an added line of advertisement on the front and an advertisement for a piano company on the back. The card stock for the piano company one is much lighter. Anyway, I thought they were cool.


Mark
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  #7  
Old 11-03-2017, 09:26 AM
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It depends on whether you count stamped ads or just printed ads, but
here are some that I believe there are fewer than 5 surviving examples of.

D310: Aldon Candy
E121: Service Candy, Shotwell, Kings, Henry Johnson (green)
R316: Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto, Community Theatre
1925-31 Exhibits: Marguerite's
W461: Playland
W514: Robinson Peanuts
W516-1-1: Sandow
W517: Piercy's
W554: Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners
1929 Exhibits Stars: Dixie Theater
W573: Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings


Here's the more extensive answer:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...192333&page=11
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  #8  
Old 11-03-2017, 09:30 AM
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as per op's request...5 or so rarest pre WWI cards...no stamps...as stated...red crofts, T216 VE stand out as likely the rarest...Culligans are pretty tough.

Then I'd guess Pirate/Tango Eggs are relatively comparable...from a #'s perspective...although definitely not perception or demand or price.

Last edited by ullmandds; 11-03-2017 at 09:31 AM.
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  #9  
Old 11-03-2017, 09:40 AM
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There's also the infamous blue Old Mill T206, but that's a different discussion perhaps. In the meantime, I believe these are the five toughest backs in my own collection: R316 Douglas Park, W573 Cafe du Monde, W514 Hendler's ("Plate" error), W514 Robinson Cruso, W575 Henry Johnson & Howard P Boyer.
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File Type: jpg Douglas Park Root back.jpg (51.3 KB, 519 views)
File Type: jpg W573 CdM back.jpg (14.8 KB, 524 views)
File Type: jpg W514 Hendler's back.jpg (49.8 KB, 527 views)
File Type: jpg W514 Robinson Cruso.jpg (53.4 KB, 525 views)
File Type: jpg W575 Henry Johnson and HPB back.jpg (24.4 KB, 519 views)
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  #10  
Old 11-03-2017, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds View Post
as per op's request...5 or so rarest pre WWI cards...no stamps...as stated...red crofts, T216 VE stand out as likely the rarest...Culligans are pretty tough.

Then I'd guess Pirate/Tango Eggs are relatively comparable...from a #'s perspective...although definitely not perception or demand or price.
Those are incorrect. These are my estimates of the populations of those issues.

Red Croft's: 14
T216 VE: 80
Pirates: 105
Tango Eggs: 400
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  #11  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:06 AM
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Since we're talking about non T206 rare backs
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:07 AM
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I'll throw these in for this discussion......


T208 Philadelphia A's Fireside


.

.


TED Z

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  #13  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darwinbulldog View Post
Those are incorrect. These are my estimates of the populations of those issues.

Red Croft's: 14
T216 VE: 80
Pirates: 105
Tango Eggs: 400
96 Pirates cards were sold at once. You think there are only another 9 in the hobby?
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  #14  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
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96 Pirates cards were sold at once. You think there are only another 9 in the hobby?
Thats perhaps a different thread, but a question I am most interested in -- aside from the 96, how many other T215 Pirates are there? My chance was sold with 4 others a while back, and I know of an ungraded Pelty and an ungraded Meyers (split picture on front). I believe Sean C has one, but i dont know if its one of the 5 sold in 2013.

Ted, do you have a running list of T215 Pirates? Maybe we can start one?
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:16 AM
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M101-4 Mall Theatre
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  #16  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
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96 Pirates cards were sold at once. You think there are only another 9 in the hobby?
That's my guess, yes. Perhaps I'm way off, but I think that's pretty close. I'm betting that there won't be another "find" of course.
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  #17  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Thats perhaps a different thread, but a question I am most interested in -- aside from the 96, how many other T215 Pirates are there? My chance was sold with 4 others a while back, and I know of an ungraded Pelty and an ungraded Meyers (split picture on front). I believe Sean C has one, but i dont know if its one of the 5 sold in 2013.

Ted, do you have a running list of T215 Pirates? Maybe we can start one?

Ryan

I have posted two threads on the "Pirate" cards.

Check-out this thread...... Comparison of checklists for T215-1 RED CROSS set vs "PIRATE" set

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...T215+red+cross


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  #18  
Old 11-03-2017, 10:50 AM
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Thank you sir!!
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Old 11-03-2017, 10:56 AM
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I think this is a pretty rare back.
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Old 11-03-2017, 11:04 AM
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And these backs are rare, though the card itself is more interesting than the back (not mine, I just lifted the image from HA).
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Old 11-03-2017, 11:09 AM
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Sorry, I should have put these all in one post, but my mind is running slow today. I need some more coffee....
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Old 11-03-2017, 11:33 AM
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Default Coupon Type 1

T213-1
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Old 11-03-2017, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darwinbulldog View Post
Those are incorrect. These are my estimates of the populations of those issues.

Red Croft's: 14
T216 VE: 80
Pirates: 105
Tango Eggs: 400
Oops!!! I spoke too quickly...so crofts candy reds definitely DO stand out as tougher than just about any other back of that type. Then we're getting to pops close to 100 at minimum it seems. Yes there was that sale of 96 pirates...i'd guess the pop to be somewhere around 200 or so.(likely less)

I suppose if we are talking toughest backs of tcard sized cards...pre wwI mainly, then these issues need to be in the mix.

e92 crofts candy red
t216 VE
T215 Pirate
T215 Red Cross both types
T213 Type I
t214 victory
Clement Bros
t208
ty cobb/cobb back because its not a t206.

what have I missed?

Last edited by ullmandds; 11-03-2017 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 11-03-2017, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Thats perhaps a different thread, but a question I am most interested in -- aside from the 96, how many other T215 Pirates are there? My chance was sold with 4 others a while back, and I know of an ungraded Pelty and an ungraded Meyers (split picture on front). I believe Sean C has one, but i dont know if its one of the 5 sold in 2013.

Ted, do you have a running list of T215 Pirates? Maybe we can start one?
Yes, my Pirate back is one of the group of five that were sold by REA in 2013. I checked at the time, and as I recall there were a total of 13 Pirate backs graded by PSA and SGC combined, not counting the set of 96. If you know of two ungraded cards, that totals 111 Pirates.
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Old 11-03-2017, 02:36 PM
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Hey Ryan

Here's the link to my 1st thread regarding the "PIRATE" set...... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...08#post1057208


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  #26  
Old 11-03-2017, 03:31 PM
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Thanks Ted. And if Pete's list is reasonably correct, seems the t206 Browm OM, ty Cobb back, brown Lenox and the 213-3 overprint should be before the t216s?
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Old 11-03-2017, 03:43 PM
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Default E104-3s

E104-3s with Nadja backs are rare......had these once.....Jerry
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File Type: jpg e104-3bridwellback.jpg (44.8 KB, 375 views)
File Type: jpg e104-3grant.jpg (60.3 KB, 383 views)
File Type: jpg e104-3grantback.jpg (43.2 KB, 375 views)
File Type: jpg e104jones.jpg (60.3 KB, 383 views)
File Type: jpg e104jonesback.jpg (48.2 KB, 379 views)
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  #28  
Old 11-03-2017, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Thanks Ted. And if Pete's list is reasonably correct, seems the t206 Browm OM, ty Cobb back, brown Lenox and the 213-3 overprint should be before the t216s?
if you're including t206...yes I agree...and as jerry says...e104-3's are very low in pop.
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  #29  
Old 11-03-2017, 03:55 PM
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Perfect, and now we are getting somewhere. That's what I was really hoping to do, if not done already, is get a list - in some semblance of rank- that includes t206s (bc how can you exclude t206 from a discussion of backs) - of the ten or so toughest T-card (and I guess E-card) backs.
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:33 PM
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How about a T206 Honus Wagner with a Piedmont back?
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darwinbulldog View Post
It depends on whether you count stamped ads or just printed ads, but
here are some that I believe there are fewer than 5 surviving examples of.

D310: Aldon Candy
E121: Service Candy, Shotwell, Kings, Henry Johnson (green)
R316: Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto, Community Theatre
1925-31 Exhibits: Marguerite's
W461: Playland
W514: Robinson Peanuts
W516-1-1: Sandow
W517: Piercy's
W554: Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners
1929 Exhibits Stars: Dixie Theater
W573: Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings


Here's the more extensive answer:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...192333&page=11
I think there are probably more D310 Aldon Candy Co. stamped backs, I have seen some come up for auction and when I bought a D310 Tom Seaton a while back, I was surprised to find at least a partial aldon stamp. I might try and find a more zoomed in version, because you can't really see the letters from this scan.

Oh, and also it would make a fun thread to see the population of all the different Aldon backs, not sure how many there are in total.

Owen

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  #32  
Old 11-03-2017, 06:47 PM
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Probably not as rare as some backs where there are only a small handful known to exist in total, thought the '21 Herpolsheimer's should at least get an honorable mention as only a single card is known to exist for each player.
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File Type: jpg 1921 Herpolsheimer's ~ McGraw Back.jpg (62.5 KB, 411 views)
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  #33  
Old 11-04-2017, 06:23 AM
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T207 Red Cross is a contender for rarest back.

Here's a previous thread on it:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=190490

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Old 11-04-2017, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve D View Post
T207 Red Cross is a contender for rarest back.

Here's a previous thread on it:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=190490

Steve
yup...forgot about those beautiful t207's!!!!
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  #35  
Old 11-04-2017, 10:48 AM
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Yep, T207 Red Cross... now has about the same population as the Ty Cobb back, I believe (15 or so??)

Blackburne is not mine.

Another E/W-series back (previously discussed)
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File Type: jpg KingsExample.jpg (75.8 KB, 338 views)
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  #36  
Old 11-04-2017, 11:10 AM
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Thanks to everyone who posted thoughts and cards- please keep it coming. After a few more days, I may sit down and synthesize the many posts into some sort of list/ranking. I personally like the backs as much as the fronts, and would love to own one of each T and E back (or as many as I can), and I am drawn to the rare and unique- you know, the ones that cost a ton and the ones you lose your shirt on if/when you go to sell!!!
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Old 11-04-2017, 10:00 PM
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Glenn has a good list. Although I have three Aldon overprints (all horrible shape), so I doubt there's less than five of them. You can add Jamaica Theater to the list of possibly unique R316s. Leon used to have some unique backs, like the E222 AWA and the 1921 Voskamps (not the 1913 version). I think there's less than 10 known Peggy Popcorn and La Azore Cobb cards. And the Alpha Photo Engraving issue comes in at a whopping 14.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darwinbulldog View Post
It depends on whether you count stamped ads or just printed ads, but
here are some that I believe there are fewer than 5 surviving examples of.

D310: Aldon Candy
E121: Service Candy, Shotwell, Kings, Henry Johnson (green)
R316: Douglas Park, Morton, Rialto, Community Theatre
1925-31 Exhibits: Marguerite's
W461: Playland
W514: Robinson Peanuts
W516-1-1: Sandow
W517: Piercy's
W554: Lucky Yo-Yo, Lukcy Deal, 40 Winners
1929 Exhibits Stars: Dixie Theater
W573: Cafe du Monde, Cream Nut, Kings


Here's the more extensive answer:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...192333&page=11
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  #38  
Old 11-04-2017, 11:59 PM
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Here's the other variation of Leader Theatre:
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File Type: jpg 1922 Leader Theatre-Rice-front.jpg (79.0 KB, 298 views)
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  #39  
Old 11-05-2017, 05:17 AM
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the D355 Niagara Baking back.

I owned the Otto Knabe, which I subsequently traded to Dan Gannt, who sold it in his divestiture over the past ±2 years. I don't think I've ever seen any other D355 example in the last fifteen years.

The E104-III Nadja's are certainly rare - but I'm not sure if they're that much rarer than E104-III blank backs. Which, if that's the case, I'm not sure becomes a valid comparison. (I've owned seven or eight E104-IIIs, and have had a fairly even mix between blank and Nadja back)

A bit like OP, I am the proud owner of a Pirate and Brown Lenox back - two cards that are unlikely to leave my collection anytime soon.

m
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Old 11-05-2017, 09:36 AM
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D303 Mothers' Bread cards qualify as rare. Most known players only have 1 to 3 examples. There are 21 verified players, 52 graded cards (PSA+SGC), and strangely, 11 of those graded cards are Eddie Plank.

It's been said before, but worth repeating, that D303 General Baking and D303 Mothers' Bread should not have the same catalog number as there are players in each set that are not in the other.
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  #41  
Old 11-05-2017, 10:00 AM
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Default Nice

Nice Steve....still can't believe that Matty got a 1 grade......Jerry
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Old 11-05-2017, 10:29 AM
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It's the most beautiful PSA 1 I've ever seen.
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Old 11-05-2017, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philliesphan View Post
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the D355 Niagara Baking back.

I owned the Otto Knabe, which I subsequently traded to Dan Gannt, who sold it in his divestiture over the past ±2 years. I don't think I've ever seen any other D355 example in the last fifteen years.

The E104-III Nadja's are certainly rare - but I'm not sure if they're that much rarer than E104-III blank backs. Which, if that's the case, I'm not sure becomes a valid comparison. (I've owned seven or eight E104-IIIs, and have had a fairly even mix between blank and Nadja back)

A bit like OP, I am the proud owner of a Pirate and Brown Lenox back - two cards that are unlikely to leave my collection anytime soon.

m
Marc, who is on the Pirate? Is it Meyers?
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  #44  
Old 11-07-2017, 11:57 AM
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Default E98 Old Put

Well, these probably aren't as rare as a Niagara Baking bu these are pretty rare......here's one........Jerry
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File Type: jpg e98oldputtinkerback.jpg (73.1 KB, 252 views)
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  #45  
Old 11-08-2017, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brass_rat View Post
D303 Mothers' Bread cards qualify as rare. Most known players only have 1 to 3 examples. There are 21 verified players, 52 graded cards (PSA+SGC), and strangely, 11 of those graded cards are Eddie Plank.

It's been said before, but worth repeating, that D303 General Baking and D303 Mothers' Bread should not have the same catalog number as there are players in each set that are not in the other.
D303 Mothers Breads are underrated. I think they are the definition of too scarce for their own good.
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  #46  
Old 11-08-2017, 07:48 PM
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If you want to include N-cards, N167 is undoubtedly the rarest back among them.

Steve
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  #47  
Old 11-09-2017, 06:36 PM
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I'm not sure exactly where in the hierarchy of things the Mello-Mint back ranks, but I've always considered it a cool-looking advertisement.
But, judging by the high value of these cards, these gems are pretty darn scarce.

TED Z

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Last edited by tedzan; 11-10-2017 at 12:53 AM. Reason: Correct typo.
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  #48  
Old 11-11-2017, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
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Marc, who is on the Pirate? Is it Meyers?
It's Doolan Fielding (need to stay aligned with my Phillies Phan moniker)
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  #49  
Old 11-12-2017, 09:55 AM
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W502 "Home Run" back -- I've only seen one.

I've only seen three "Three Bagger" backs, for that matter.
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Old 11-13-2017, 09:46 AM
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Here's a "Three Bagger"

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