T207 Red Cross (known examples)

[ZachS]

I'm still doing some research on Louisiana issues and I've been looking into T207 Anon Fact. 3 and Red Cross.

The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards mentions that 4 Red Cross backs were discovered in LA in 1983. I found mention of a Lange being discovered sometime after that. And of course we all know about the 2010 Louisiana Find which added 8 more Red Cross backs (including a Lowdermilk). This should bring the grand total to 13 known examples.

While I've found many articles mentioning the first 4 examples and that they were all Chicago players, I haven't found a list of which 4 players were found. I did find evidence of 2 of the original 4 cards. One shows up in VCP and Leon posted a Weaver in a thread here.

Looking for confirmation of the other 2 examples from the original find. If anyone here has any of these please feel free to show them off.

Initial group of four:
1. Russel Blackburne - (PSA 3 in REA on 5/2/10 sold for $9,400.00. Obviously not the same card as the SGC 10 from the Louisiana Find in August 2010)
2. George Weaver (SGC 20) - LEON?
3. ????
4. ????

Discovered sometime between "finds":
5. Frank Lange - (VCP shows an SGC 10 in Mastro Auction on 2/23/07 sold for $4,652.40)

Group of eight from the "Louisiana Find":
6. Louis Lowdermilk (SGC 40)
7. John Adams (SGC 50)
8. Russell Blackburne (SGC 10)
9. William Cunningham (SGC 40)
10. Otto Miller (SGC 40)
11. Red Nelson (SGC 30)
12. Don Carlos Ragan (SGC 30)
13. George Tyler (SGC 30)

[Leon]

It should't be too difficult to find those other 2 cards somewhere......

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by Leon

It should't be too difficult to find those other 2 cards somewhere......

You would think... especially given the fact that I've seen so many articles/posts where people say they were all Chicago players. I've also seen mention that all 4 cards had glue residue on the top of the reverse (just like your Weaver there). It seems like quite a few people have all the info on these cards... EXCEPT which players were on them.

That's a nice Weaver. Do you have any info about its history? Lew Lipset mentions the original 4 card find was made in 1983. Do you know anything about that find or where this card went between then and when it ended up in your collection?

[Bridwell]

I'm sure one of the missing two is Ward Miller. The other is rumored to be Joe Benz. I'm the owner of the Adams SGC 50.

[frohme]

With Leon's ubiquitous Weaver above, these are the other ones I've seen an image of. The 11 accounted ones for in your list, I believe.

Like Ron, and others, I have Benz as a definite, and both Ward Miller (two separate confirmations) and George Mogridge only 1 as the possible other card(s).

[ZachS]

I found this thread mentioning Ward Miller http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=84140

I also know that when I sold the Blackburne, there had been another (5th) card discovered at the time - a Ward Miller I believe (if I remember correctly). The Miller was discovered in NJ by an old time collector who had it in with his other T207's.

Since he made mention of the 5th card (the lone card found between the 1983 find and the 2010 find) I dismissed it as a case of mistaken identity. The lone card should be Lange. Now that you mention Miller as well we might be on to something.

I can't believe it's this difficult to figure out these 2 cards with so many people talking about them in past articles.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by frohme

Like Ron, and others, I have Benz as a definite, and both Ward Miller (two separate confirmations) and George Mogridge only 1 as the possible other card(s).

Wait... you say there are 2 different WARD Miller cards? And a Benz? And Mogridge?

If that's the case then you just took the list to at least 15. That can't be right can it?

EDIT - I think I read that wrong... you're saying you have 2 confirmations of ONE Ward Miller card... not 2 separate cards.

So the 11 I have listed plus Benz plus Ward Miller OR George Mogridge (13 total cards)? Or 11 plus Benz, Ward Miller, AND Mogridge (14 total cards)?

[frohme]

Originally Posted by ZachS

EDIT - I think I read that wrong... you're saying you have 2 confirmations of ONE Ward Miller card... not 2 separate cards.

yes, correct.

Originally Posted by ZachS

So the 11 I have listed plus Benz plus Ward Miller OR George Mogridge (13 total cards)? Or 11 plus Benz, Ward Miller, AND Mogridge (14 total cards)?

Everything I've read/heard (including your last quote) seems to imply 14 cards. If the Ward Miller find is accurate as quoted, it probably would have been known between the Lange find and the Louisiana find.

Which would make 14 cards of 13 players, with only the Blackburne as having more than one. Note that the two individual Blackburne images above are the before and after the "cleanup" referenced in certain threads to get a PSA 3... back damage and all.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by frohme

Everything I've read/heard (including your last quote) seems to imply 14 cards. If the Ward Miller find is accurate as quoted, it probably would have been known between the Lange find and the Louisiana find.

Which would make 14 cards of 13 players, with only the Blackburne as having more than one. Note that the two individual Blackburne images above are the before and after the "cleanup" referenced in certain threads to get a PSA 3... back damage and all.

Everything I've read/heard seems to imply 13 cards. I've repeatedly seen mention of 5 cards being known prior to the Louisiana Find of 8 cards:

4 in the first discovery from Louisiana (1983?)
1 a while later supposedly in NJ (Lange SGC 10 was sold by Mastro in 2007)
8 in the Louisiana Find of 2010 (these 8 are definitely known)

I agree that there are definitely TWO Blackburne cards (1 from the first discovery that is in a PSA 3 holder and 1 from the LA Find that is in an SGC 10 holder).

You make mention of the Ward Miller find being between the Lange and the LA Find but I've never heard of a card being found outside of the 3 "finds" that I mentioned. I have also been unable to find a picture of the Miller card anywhere but several people have mentioned Miller being found with a Red Cross back. I'm leaning toward the opinion that Miller may have been 1 in the group of 4 found in 1983 along with Leon's Weaver and the PSA 3 Blackburne that had glue removed from the back.

I found this quote from Jay Behrens in an article about the LA Find:

“I know that 12 of the 13 known t207 Red Cross cards have come from Louisiana,” said Behrens.

Doesn't he post here? Hopefully he can chime in and shed some light on this.

[hshrimps]

I didn't know there are two Blackburne for Red Cross back.

[ullmandds]

yes there are 2 blackburne...and no JAy behrens can not post here...you can likely contact him via behrens bbq sauce.

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

and no JAy behrens can not post here...

Sorry... didn't know that. I try to stay away from the drama.

[frohme]

Zach,

Originally Posted by ZachS

I'm leaning toward the opinion that Miller may have been 1 in the group of 4 found in 1983 along with Leon's Weaver and the PSA 3 Blackburne that had glue removed from the back.

That would make the most sense to me, as my statement of "Miller being between Lange and the LA find" was based on various forum posts dated between the two, and implying that one had been buried in an long-time collector's goup of T207s (and recently discovered). That said, it did not imply that it was not in the early find - I made that distinction myself.

The other aspect was my recollection of the statements about the early find. I don't have access to resources right now, but recall - and it is my recollection only - that it contained all White Sox cards, and was not just Chicago cards. My memory isn't what it once was, so I may be way off base.

FWIW, Old Cardboard has it both ways:

Until four T207 Red Cross cards were auctioned by hobby veteran Lew Lipset some two decades ago, the T207 Red Cross backs were unknown to the hobby. Three of these cards were for players Russell Blackburne, Ward Miller and George "Buck" Weaver. After checking with Lew and several long-time T207 set collectors, we were unable to identify the fourth player from the early discovery. If any of our readers can confirm the identity of the player that fourth card, please do so and we will update the set checklist on the Old Cardboard website accordingly.
...
Interestingly, the origins of all but one of the Red-Cross-back cards can be traced directly back to Louisiana, where they were no doubt first distributed. Curiously, all of the known players from the previous discoveries were for Chicago White Sox players ....

Also, just found this reference from one of the previous incarnations of the old forums: http://forum1.aimoo.com/vintagebaseb...-1-687906.html

Apparently, even in early 2007, there was knowledge about (or contention of) 6 separate Red Cross backed cards, though there is the same glossing over of Chicago vs WhiteSox even then, as clearly Ward Miller was a Cubbie.

All that said, there seems to be a lot of re-quoting and reading in to what was said/written/recalled (and I'm equally guilty), so going back to the source(s) seems appropriate, if at all possible. At least we now know for certain its not just WhiteSox.

Still, 13 or 14 cards, either way its a small number, and we have other open items:

• The RedCross/LA connection is a tantalizing curiousity worth investigation
• as far as anyone knows - the RedCross <-> Broadleaf class alignment still holds.

Now if you want to talk Anonymous cards (i.e. Fac 3), that's another can of worms...

--
Mike

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by frohme

The RedCross/LA connection is a tantalizing curiousity worth investigation

Here's something I found in Frank Leslie's Popular Monthly titled The Tobacco War by Earl Mayo from 1908:

Along with its cigarette interests the American Tobacco Company had acquired a certain amount of business in smoking tobacco, especially from the Duke and Kimball companies, which had several popular brands on the market. The American Tobacco Company thus found itself competing with the manufacturers of pipe tobacco and Mr. Duke next turned his attention to bringing these firms and also the manufacturers of plug tobacco into line.

Two of the largest of these concerns were the P. Lorillard Company and Liggett & Myers, of St. Louis, the latter said to be then the largest tobacco manufacturers in the world. These two firms did not take kindly to the arguments advanced by Mr. Duke, and he thereupon proceeded to apply a course of treatment designed to change their opinion of the advantages of industrial combination.

The campaign that followed was one of the most remarkable in recent business history, and it was waged on the part of the American Tobacco Company with Mr. Duke's favorite weapon, lavish advertising. The guns of the opposing forces were rival brands and these brands were pushed in every possible way with the jobbers, the retailers and the consumers. A single example will illustrate the scale on which the engagements were fought.

The American Tobacco Company brought out a brand of plug called "Battle-Ax." The very mention of the name will probably recall to readers the time when the name stared at one from every dead wall and fence, when the tags that accompanied it were collected by users of the weed and their young friends for the sake of the prizes that they brought, and when the dealers (to whom prizes also were offered) were eager to introduce it to their customers.

The pace was a hot one and it was set by Mr. Duke and his associates. Money was poured out in rivers, and even with the enormous sale developed by advertising there was a heavy deficit, but this did not trouble Mr. Duke. He was fighting not only for trade but for trade supremacy, and he knew that the bill would be settled later on.

A man prominently connected with the tobacco business is my authority for the statement that Mr. Duke said to him :--

"We sank $4,000,000 in making 'Battle-Ax' known and getting it established, but since then we have made $12,000,000 from it."

The influence which the popularity of an established brand exerts is well illustrated by an incident which occurred during the progress of this campaign.

At the time when the contest was at its height there were on the market two rival brands of " long-cut," one owned by the American Tobacco Company, and called "Honest," the other the ''Red Cross'' of the Lorillards. These two brands fought each other all over the country. In certain sections, however, "Red Cross" was so firmly entrenched that it seemed almost impossible for "Honest" to secure a foothold. This was notably the case in New Orleans, ''Red Cross'' being in great favor with the negro tobacco chewers there.

At that time it was customary in the tobacco business to make the same brand of varying strength to suit the demands of different markets. For instance, the ''Red Cross '' sold in New York was a lighter and milder quality than the "Red Cross" sold in New Orleans, the heavier and darker kind being demanded by the Southern market.

When several months had gone by and the effort to make '' Honest'' longcut popular in New Orleans had proved unavailing, a mistake was made by which a large quantity of the lighter stock of '' Red Cross '' prepared for the New York market was shipped to New Orleans, and the shops there were stocked with it. As soon as the consumer inserted his jaws in a specimen of the new supply of his favorite brand, however, he realized that it was different and less satisfactory than his previous purchases.

At the same time a supply of '' Honest '' which had been made especially heavy for the New Orleans market was put into the shops and almost immediately the sale of '' Red Cross'' began to fall off while "Honest" went to the front.

The fight continued with unabated vigor until 1898. The great firm of Liggett & Myers, as well as some of the smaller manufacturers, had declared that they never would sell out to '' the trust," but in 1898 this establishment, together with the Blackwell's Durham Company and the National Cigarette and Tobacco Company, was sold to the Union Tobacco Company, the capital of which was $10,000,000.

It was the general impression at the time that the Union Tobacco Company was formed to fight the American, but about six months after the consummation of this deal the American Tobacco Company took over the business of the Union Tobacco Company—and Mr. Duke was president of the American.

Originally Posted by frohme

Now if you want to talk Anonymous cards (i.e. Fac 3), that's another can of worms...

I DO!

[frohme]

Nice, Zach.

I recall having read that excerpt before, though I'd not have attributed it to that publication. Times were definitely dirty ... "mistakes" were made ... the rest is history (or fodder for hobby enthusiasts/researchers).

Now if you want to talk Anonymous cards (i.e. Fac 3), that's another can of worms...

I think that a T207 Anon Factory 3 discussion would probably be best served by a separate thread. There are a number of folks that would likely be interested and able to contribute...

--
Mike

[brass_rat]

Just some new info for this great thread following the Spring 2018 REA auction. Brian's note is well-written, so I'll quote him so as not to leave out information. (I asked before sharing these details.) This is exciting stuff! I don't have the card in-hand yet, so these are the scans from REA.

Spoke to the consignor of the Red Cross. He believes he got this card in the late 1960s! He is in his 80s now, but he's very sharp and he's been at this for a long time. His recollection is that he used to set up at a flea market in NJ when a guy came to his booth and said he had old cigarette cards. Our consignor told him that he was interested, so the guy said next time the flea market happened, he'd stop by. Our consignor wrote him off but sure enough he came back the next month with a cigar box full of cards. There were dozens of T207s, various other baseball cards, and hundreds of nonsport birds cards he recalled. He paid $25 which he said was a strong price. The T207s formed the basis of his complete set, and he never gave much thought to the Red Cross other than that it was different than all the Recruits he had. He is confident that it was the 1960s because he moved to a different area in 1972.

We submitted the card for grading on his behalf.

[Sean]

Wow Steve, you've added this Ward Miller Red Cross and that split level Pirate? You have had one hell of a year. so far.

[kmac32]

Sweet card. I was in the mix on this one but got too rich for my blood..great card and congratulations

[brass_rat]

Thanks, guys -- I'm really going to enjoy this one. I figured that this was one of the "early" Red Cross cards (as compared to the more recent Louisiana Find cards) so I wasn't going to allow the stamped back to deter me.

[ullmandds]

great miller...congrats!