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  #51  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:01 AM
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Posted By: Wesley

The top card is the stronger one. Still, someone paid over $3600 for that card?




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  #52  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:04 AM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I assume Marc posted the scans because the bottom one is in fact the 8.

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  #53  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:07 AM
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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Boy that bottom one is a beauty--borderline 9--whoever bought that is one smart guy--thanks Marc.

Honestly Marc, I am very disappointed in you trying to embarass me this way and I am disappointed in what I thought were two of my friends piling on.

Jim

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  #54  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:15 AM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Wes, no indeed, the top one probably sold for $10.

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  #55  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:23 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

It's hard to tell the sharpness of the corners from the two pics but the chipping is pretty clear.

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  #56  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:31 AM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Jim, I don't think Marc or anyone else me included is trying to do that. I think the point, not at all personal to you, is that once in a while at the fringes there are times when the flip trumps the card and results in rather remarkable price disparities that would not exist but for the set registry phenomenon. The Witt just happens to be a good illusration of that. I think even you would admit that out of the holder you probably would choose the top card for a raw set. EDIT to fix typo.

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  #57  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:33 AM
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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Huh?

What are you talking about, Jim? Me?

I don't collect 1960s Topps cards. I have no idea which card was in which auction, or who bought what. Marc said one was a 7, and one was an 8. My opinion is that the 7 must be the one on the bottom, due to the edge chipping. Evidently I'm wrong.

I guess you have the one on the bottom. Congratulations on a beautiful card.

Whoever has the 7 on the top should resubmit it, I guess.

-Al

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  #58  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:35 AM
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Posted By: leon

I would definitely, absolutely, pay thousands and thousands more for one of them, however I can't tell which one ......

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  #59  
Old 12-02-2007, 12:23 PM
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Posted By: Brian

I like the top card, even if its the 7. If I owned it, and it were the 7, I would resubmit it 100 times or so. It would only need to hit an 8 one time to go 4x over the submission costs.

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  #60  
Old 12-02-2007, 02:38 PM
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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Jim, I don't think anyone was "piling on, least of all me. If anything, Marc's post questions the consistency of PSA.

Frank

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  #61  
Old 12-02-2007, 02:47 PM
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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Here's a recent ebay sale of a PSA 7 card of Witt....Check-it out !

http://cgi.ebay.com/1962-Topps-287-George-Witt-Angels-PSA-7-NM_W0QQitemZ260183109987

It is mind-boggling that anyone would "throw away"....25x this price for the same card....that no
one here can discern the difference whether it is a "7" or an "8".

To 99.99% of the collectors in this hobby....there is no damn difference.

T-Rex TED

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  #62  
Old 12-02-2007, 02:48 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Most of the thread until that point concerned topics around the point that I paid $3,500 plus for the Witt. Then a post goes up which compares the one I bought to a 7. Everyone says the 7 is better. Its a very low move and certainly something I would not do.

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  #63  
Old 12-02-2007, 02:50 PM
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Posted By: Wesley

You need to lighten up, Jim. I am sure everyone is happy that you now have a 1962 George Witt. Congratulations.

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  #64  
Old 12-02-2007, 02:54 PM
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Posted By: Cat (ret.)

Who's George Witt?

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  #65  
Old 12-02-2007, 02:57 PM
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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Jim,

If you were happy to have acquired the card after the auction ended, then why do you care what people -- who obviously don't share your collecting belief that places a huge difference in value between a PSA 7 and 8 -- post about your pick-up?

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  #66  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:02 PM
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Posted By: Brian Weisner


Hi Jim,
I couldn't care less what you paid for the card... As long as you are happy, who cares.... Be well Brian

PS I buy cards all the time for more than they are worth, but to me they are priceless...

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  #67  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:12 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Brian--I am happy--I would buy it again--I had a top all that was above that--its a brutal card to find.

Rob--why do I care? Because certain of these guys used to be hobby "friends" of mine--its okay though' the quest goes on.

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  #68  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:16 PM
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Posted By: Wesley

The PSA population report shows six PSA 8 George Witt cards graded. Who owns the other five PSA 8s?

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  #69  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:25 PM
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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Back to the topic:

I won this one:



Frank

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  #70  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:34 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Frank -- nice card.

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  #71  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:34 PM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Frank, very nice. What IS on the other side?

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  #72  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:43 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Ted,

The answers are

1)It gives me a set run 1960-68 every card psa 8 or better
2)It is an impossible card in 8
3)I try to upgrade all 7s in my collection.

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  #73  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:47 PM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

The gentleman who sold the PSA 7 Ted posted sells an awful lot of high grade commons, so if he chose to sell it rather than to try to resubmit it for an 8, there probably is a good reason it is in a 7 holder.

The interesting question here that no one has answered yet is WHY the Witt is so scarce in high grade. Jim, any insight into this?

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  #74  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:47 PM
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Posted By: Frank Evanov

The Other side:



Frank

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  #75  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:51 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Frank, why is that not an 8 or 9?

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  #76  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:53 PM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Pose looks identical to the #144 Goudey Ruth.

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  #77  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:56 PM
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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

The simple answer to your inquiry is that it is a card that is typically O/C.

There are currently about 20 - 62T Witt's on ebay and most are O/C to the top of the card.

This was also true of the ones I saw on the Ended Ebay lots of this card.

TED Z

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  #78  
Old 12-02-2007, 04:03 PM
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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Peter, I believe that picture is used for 3 of the 1933 Goudey Ruths. Full pose for #144 and cropped around the head for the Red and Yellow Ruths:







Frank

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  #79  
Old 12-02-2007, 04:15 PM
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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I think this ebay link tells the story....as is evident, most Witt's are O/C. Therefore, the combination of a
perfectly centered Witt with near perfect corners is indeed rare.

http://search-completed.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=so&sbrftog=1&from=R10&_trksid=m37&satitle=1962+topps+witt

Jim, I realize that number "8" is magic to you....but, you could've saved a lot of $$$$ if you had collected
these 1960's cards in PSA 7 grades. And, that would leave you tons of $$$$ for the better pre-war stuff.
And, I say this because from a macro-investing standpoint, these 1960's cards are not going to hold their
current market value.

TED Z

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  #80  
Old 12-02-2007, 04:15 PM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

What a bummer Ruth wasn't in 34 Goudey at all after having 4 cards in 33. I wonder if it had anything to do with Gehrig being the featured "spokesman"?

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  #81  
Old 12-02-2007, 04:19 PM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

One wonders, then, how these few came to be centered perfectly if every other one is off center. I used to wonder the same thing about the 65T Charlie Smith which back years ago when I was building that set was the holy grail in PSA 8. I think at the time Jim had one of only 3 copies. Virtually every one you would see was off center significantly; so HOW did just a few come to be well-centered? I wondered sometimes in my cynical moments if trimming was involved.

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  #82  
Old 12-02-2007, 04:28 PM
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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

We could start another Thread on cards that are consistently found O/C.

One of my best pre-war examples is the Green Cobb with a Piedmont 150 back....which is mostly found O/C
with a very narrow top border. Green Cobbs with other backs are usually centered.
Here are my two Cobbs to illustrate this.....




TED Z

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  #83  
Old 12-02-2007, 04:34 PM
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Posted By: Steve Clark

Not trimmed because to make a centered card that was originally off-centered would require noticeable size change. If you were to question such a card, one could say it was cut from a sheet.

But I don't. No card was ever cut by Topps the same way every single time. To say that there couldn't be any centered Witts or Smiths implies exactly that.

Nice pick up Jim. I can relate how it feels to get close to completing a set and wanting to get a card no matter what (which was one of the reasons I stopped playing that game).

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  #84  
Old 12-02-2007, 04:41 PM
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Posted By: cmoking

Frank, nice pick up!!!

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  #85  
Old 12-02-2007, 05:04 PM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

All it takes to qualify for an 8 is 65-35 and I have seen worse. So a tiny bit of microtrimming could indeed make the difference. Theoretically of course.

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  #86  
Old 12-02-2007, 05:15 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Does anybody know where the Witt appeared on the sheet? Chances are it was in a vulnerable position, such as the corner or the edge. Those invariably are the toughest ones to find high grade.

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  #87  
Old 12-02-2007, 05:25 PM
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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Barry I believe Ted already posted that he didn't think sheet placement was the issue.

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  #88  
Old 12-02-2007, 05:37 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

The thread got too long for me to reread. Sorry about that.

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  #89  
Old 12-02-2007, 06:56 PM
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Posted By: Ron Lambert

I thought this card looked really nice for a 6.


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  #90  
Old 12-02-2007, 07:48 PM
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Posted By: Frank Evanov

You're right Ron!! Nice one.

Frank

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  #91  
Old 12-02-2007, 09:13 PM
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Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Jim, congrats on completing the 60-68 run. I'm curious about what is next on your quest. Are you going for 1969 or will you go the other way and start on the 1959's?

Rick

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  #92  
Old 12-03-2007, 04:08 AM
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Posted By: Anonymous

Rick,

Need 4 59s in 8 or better, 1 58, 56 and 57 done, 18 upgrades in 55, 54 done and roughly 50 ion each 52 and 53. 69 I have stars graded and rest raw nr-mt-mt as is true for every set through 91.

Have a couple hundred other sets fooling around with too.

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