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#51
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T206s
These are my only T206 Coupon backs that I have.
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#52
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This is my only Coupon Type-1, and it's another Engel. Why so many of this particular player?
It's not graded, and I don't plan to get it graded because I like to be able to demonstrate how different it is from other T206 cards. It has back damage in the same place as most of the other Coupons, though it isn't quite as bad. scan0001.jpg scan0002.jpg Last edited by Sean; 12-30-2018 at 12:12 PM. |
#53
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Maybe it's just because there are a lot of Yankee/Highlander collectors...and it's a cool pose...is why we see all the engles????
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#54
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Very good point Peter.
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#55
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That's kind of my point: the ACC designation T206 reflects a series of decisions based on information available at the time to a group of collectors like us. There is nothing inherently right or wrong with the decision to canonize certain cards as T206 and make others different. The type 1 Coupons seem indistinguishable from T206 from a design standpoint, other than the paper, but we have the Kotton cards as the 'rule' governing paper differences. As for the other white series T213s, well, as has been pointed out already they had the artwork and basically redid the captions and finishes to issue the cards. What company hasn't re-used artwork whenever it could get away with it? T202 was a repurposing of T205 cards with white borders. And how much artwork is shared across T sets?
Don't forget, Camel started its advertising in the teens by deriding companies that spent money on premiums instead of the product itself. In that atmosphere a cut rate re-issue of T206 might have made sense: type 2. Then you have the Federal League and a chance to re-do some captions and issue type 3.
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... Last edited by Exhibitman; 12-30-2018 at 10:26 AM. |
#56
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T214 and T215 have similar designs and T215 has a brown captioned one too. I guess we make those T206 also?
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Leon Luckey Last edited by Leon; 12-30-2018 at 10:46 AM. |
#57
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I think T214 was issued a few years after the end of the T206 run, so no.
T215 type 1 might be considered, since the time frame seems right, but I don't know enough about the issue to do more than guess at it. Red Cross was in T207 and T219, so who the heck knows.
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... |
#58
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And while we're at it, what should we do with T215 Pirates? Same artwork, brown captions, and perhaps some of them were printed in the same time frame.
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#59
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Add em!
Last edited by ullmandds; 12-30-2018 at 12:17 PM. |
#60
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__________________
Leon Luckey |
#61
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Delete, unnecessary.
Last edited by Sean; 12-30-2018 at 12:20 PM. |
#62
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I'll see your Pirate Merkle and raise you this one.
Wait, that doesn't sound right...
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Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... Last edited by Exhibitman; 12-30-2018 at 01:44 PM. |
#63
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The thing that stands out the most to me is the odd group of subjects used, I think Luke mentioned it earlier. The mix of forty two 350 only subjects
with Twenty Southern Leaguers and the six super prints doesn't fit in with any of the other T206 backs. To me it seems like something that was done after the plates were used for the T206's. Where does the 1910 date for the T213-1's come from? |
#64
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Sounds like a separate regional issue.
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Wanted : Detroit Baseball Cards and Memorabilia ( from 19th Century Detroit Wolverines to Detroit Tigers Ty Cobb to Al Kaline). |
#65
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#66
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I understand both sides of this issue. On Leon's side the Coupons are listed in the ACC as T213 so that's what they are. And T206 is what it is. It's that simple. On the other hand, if the ACC needs to be amended then someone should do it. Until then though, Coupons are going to be T213 because that's what Burdick catalogued them as. If you want to collect them in your T206 set then go ahead. As they say, there's no wrong way to collect right?
__________________
I'm always looking for t206's with purple numbers stamped on the back like the one in my avatar. The Great T206 Back Stamp Project: Click Here My Online Trading Site: Click Here Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com My Humble Blog: Click Here |
#67
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Quote:
Last edited by Sean; 12-30-2018 at 03:23 PM. |
#68
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
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First, with all due respect to Luke (or Pat), they are appear to be uninformed as they are misleading with the above statement. The Six Super Prints were simply 350 Series subjects when the 1910 COUPON cards were produced. It was not until later in the game that American Lithographic (ALC) selected these six subjects from an earlier print run to be Super-Prints. And, ALC made this selection when they started printing the SOVEREIGN 460 cards (circa Summer/Fall 1910). Proof of this is evident in the SOVEREIGN sub-set in that the Six Super Prints are found with both SOVEREIGN 350 and SOVEREIGN 460 backs, as I am illustrating here...... Furthermore, regarding the Southern Association (20) subjects, I refer you to post #24 in this thread. Six Super Prints with SOVEREIGN 460 backs printed circa Summer/Fall 1910 . . ............ 1910 COUPON printed circa Spring/Summer 1910 . . TED Z T206 Reference . |
#69
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super prints are printed with an Apple Green back. |
#70
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Here are 4 Art Fletchers from this series in varying degrees of condition. The best example is an SGC 30 which is high grade for these. SGC 40 is the highest grade I have of any player, although I have some raw nice ones that could get 40 or 50.
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Want to buy or trade for T213-1 (Bob Rhoades) Other Louisiana issues T216 T215 T214 T213 Etc |
#71
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
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No kidding.....Pat I think my SOVEREIGN 350 and SOVEREIGN 460 scans of the six super prints in post #68 clearly show the apple green vs. darker green backs, respectively. Here is an excerpt from my thread of which I identified all 66 subjects that were printed with the "apple green" SOVEREIGN 350 backs. Back in 2007, Art Martineau first noted that certain SOVEREIGN 350 cards had a lighter shade of GREEN backs than other SOVEREIGN 350 cards. Initially, this phenomena was mystifying to all of us. By Nov 2007, I had completed my all-SOVEREIGN set, and this enabled me to identify the 66 cards with the apple green backs.. Quote:
T206 Reference . |
#72
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
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The Grading Co.'s can be "brutal" grading these 1910 COUPON cards....and, especially PSA. SGC 40 is the highest grade that I, also, have seen of any of these cards. I thought I'd get a nice grade on this Chance. It doesn't have any creases (or subtle problems). When I complained to PSA, they remarked: "that's your opinion, we see it differently". My mistake for submitting it to PSA. . TED Z T206 Reference . |
#73
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It's a good point about the "Super Prints" not necessarily being a separate group in 1910. That's certainly possible. Are there any theories as to how the Super Prints were printed? Seems possible/likely to me that those 6 poses were on their own sheet. That would make it easy for them to be printed with the large number of backs they appear with.
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ThatT206Life.com |
#74
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Nice Evers Ryan!
That Willett is a beauty Ted. I am guessing it would grade a 2.5 or 3.
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ThatT206Life.com |
#75
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Ted, that's awesome. I did not realize that you had found another T213-1 Chance and an upgrade to boot. Way to go. That card is near mint for this series. Here's an SGC 40 Rube Marquard...
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Want to buy or trade for T213-1 (Bob Rhoades) Other Louisiana issues T216 T215 T214 T213 Etc |
#76
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That Marquard is super nice. Also, you have 4 Fletchers? That's insane!
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ThatT206Life.com |
#77
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Thanks, Luke. It's a long story. I bought up a bunch of these in the 90's. I only need a T213-1 Bob Rhoades to complete the set.
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Want to buy or trade for T213-1 (Bob Rhoades) Other Louisiana issues T216 T215 T214 T213 Etc |
#78
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That's incredible, congrats!
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ThatT206Life.com |
#79
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
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Rob After you and I did a deal for my original Chance some years ago, I came across this Chance and I could not pass it up, although the price for it was "steep". I was very disappointed with the PSA's grade on it. Eventually, I'll crack it out and submit it to SGC. Gee, you've been hunting for that Rhoades for many years now. It's scarcity appears to be like his T3 card (which is absolutely tough to find). Good luck, and Happy New Year to you. TED Z T206 Reference . |
#80
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
Quote:
And interestingly, this configuration coincides with the 48 - the Major League subjects in the 1910 COUPON set. Subsequently, ALC selected the 6 subjects that we refer to as the "Super Prints"**. When ALC included these 6 guys in the 350/460 Series, they Double-Printed them on sheets of T206's. This is evident on numerous surveys of T206 cards. Early 350 Series configuration (circa early Spring 1910) Note * Placement of cards on this configuration are randomly arranged. Note ** Scot Reader's excellent research revealed that these 6 subjects were printed in larger quantities, and with more Tobacco brands than any of the other subjects in the T206 set. In his book titled "Inside T206", Scot identifies these 6 guys as the " Super-Prints ". TED Z T206 Reference . |
#81
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Ted, do you still have the Chance from which you upgraded? If so, let me know if you ever go to sell/trade it.
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#82
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Ted....
I believe the type 1's should have been included, but just weren't.....which sucks.....now they have just been classified with the 2's and 3's and grouped together unfortunately
I'm afraid it probably will always stay that way |
#83
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
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Rob and I traded for my first Chance some years ago. Have a Happy New Year. Quote:
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#84
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Love me some SL Type 1 Coupons!
Ted - Great thread and as time marches on, the consensus is growing that Coupon Type 1's are in fact the same as the other T206 brands from 1909-11. By the way, the grades don't matter on these delicate beauties as the grading companies are all over the board. I have several that are vastly under graded and some that are over graded. I do like them in the holder for protection since their so fragile. I hope you don't mind me tossing some Southern Leaguer's in as this thread is completely void of them minus the Ted Breitenstein! Here is a player from each of the SL Teams...
Happy New Year Everyone!!
__________________
Collector of Nashville & Southern Memorabilia |
#85
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Long shot, but does anyone recall a find or original collection where there were type 1 Coupons mixed with the other T206 brands. That would help cement their printing and distribution to the same time frame. I have purchased a couple of sizeable original collections of T206's, one of which was 90% Sovereign(all backs) indicating the smoker collector was a hardcore Sovereign cigarettes devotee.. There were a few other brands mixed in, but not many.
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#86
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i bet Ted knows of one he can share with us
Last edited by RedsFan1941; 12-31-2018 at 03:58 PM. |
#87
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
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I think your observation is correct, we may be winning the cause...." the consensus is growing that Coupon Type 1's are in fact the same as the other T206 brands from 1909-11 " And, do I mind you posting some Southern Association guys here ? You have to be kidding, of course not....bring them all on. What I do mind is that you got me interested in these 1910 COUPON cards quite a number of years ago And every time I post something on these scarce gems, trying to inform the hobby, I have to dodge a lot of "flak" from some of these guys on this forum. My fighter plane is riddled with bullets Take care good buddy, and a Happy New Year to you and your family. I betcha your sons are looking forward to the BB season. TED Z T206 Reference . |
#88
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#89
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
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Circa 2009 there was the "Louisiana find" of about 100 cards including T213-2 & 3, T214, T215 1 & 2, and T207's with RED CROSS backs (including Lowdermilk with RED CROSS back). The timeline for this group of cards ranges from 1910 to 1919. And, what to me is most notable in this collection, is it does NOT include a single 1910 COUPON card. I cannot think of any collection of any size that has included 1910 COUPON cards in my experience collecting vintage cards since 1977. Scott, regarding your..... " I have purchased a couple of sizeable original collections of T206's, one of which was 90% Sovereign(all backs) ".....was this an original collection, and if so, where did it originate from in the US ? TED Z T206 Reference . Last edited by tedzan; 12-31-2018 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Corrected typo. |
#90
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Jon has a picture of a coupon pack on his site. http://baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm |
#91
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
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Pat We have gone thru this before....that pack in Jon's pix contained T213-2 or T213-3 cards. It did NOT contain 1910 COUPON cards. Think about it, the T-cards of that era served the purpose of stiffening the cigarette pack. Two cards, one on each side of the pack were inserted. There's no way the thin cardboard stock that the 1910 COUPON cards were printed on that could serve as stiffeners. Incidentally, years ago I discussed with Jon the possibility of a cigarette pack containing 1910 COUPON cards, and if I recall correctly: Jon said that none were found. Furthermore, a pack designed for 1910 COUPON cards would have had Quotation Marks on the brand name as the backs of these cards are printed with. The quotes signify a new Tobacco brand which is in the process of getting a Registered Trademark. Here are examples of this.... ............ . Therefore, continue your search for a Coupon pack that is labelled..... "COUPON". Please contact me when you do find such a pack. TED Z T206 Reference . |
#92
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backs and stating your opinions and theory's as facts. |
#93
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Hey Pat
Wishing you a very Happy New Year. Perhaps we can try to enjoy 2019 without any sarcasm on this forum. TED Z . |
#94
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Fair enough Ted. So back to the discussion the coupon carton you refer to in
Jeremy's post doesn't have the quotation marks either. Coupon carton.jpg and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from. |
#95
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
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Pat 1st.....Here is exactly what I said in the 1st post in this thread... .. Quote:
Pat....do notice that I stated...."Such a cigarette carton" This particular carton which Jeremy posted in his thread some years ago contained COUPON cigarettes manufactured in 1913 - 1919. And, if cards were enclosed in this type of carton, they would have been either T213-2 or T213-3. This we know for sure, since the LIGGETT & MYERS TOBACCO CO. logo is printed on it. The ATC divesture (circa June 1911) resulted in the following manner LIGGETT & MYERS was given about 28 per cent of the cigarette market: Coupon Piedmont Fatima American Beauty Home Run Imperiales King Bee Fatima (the only 15 Turkish blend and the cheap straight domestic brands. P. LORILLARD received 15 per cent of the nation's business: Helmar Egyptian Deities Turkish Trophies Murad Mogul and all straight Turkish brands AMERICAN TOBACCO CO. retained 37 per cent of the market: Sweet Caporal Hassan Mecca Pall Mall, its expensive all-Turkish brand, named for a fashionable London street in the 18th century where "pall-mall" (a precursor to croquet) was played. R. J. REYNOLDS received no cigarette line but was awarded 20 per cent of the plug trade. 2nd....." and can you answer the question of where the 1910 date for the type 1 comes from." Approx 10 years ago, Louisiana Newspaper clippings (1909 or 1910) were posted in a Net54 thread introducing the new ATC tobacco brand, COUPON. TED Z T206 Reference . |
#96
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In your thread title you ask "what say you" and when I posted my opinion you stated that I'm uniformed and that I'm misleading people. I don't care if people consider them T206's but in my opinion there is more evidence to support how Burdick catalogued them and not enough to change it. Yes they have the same image as T206's but the same group of subjects are not found on any other backs except piedmont's which were used on every subject with the exception of Demmitt and O'Hara St. Louis. The same T206 images were also used for type 2 and 3 and the Chief Meyers T213-3 card depicting him with New Haven would have been printed in 1919 or later, eight years after the T206 printing supposedly ended. So they either made new plates or used the T206 plates after their printing ended. When I look at the group of subjects in the T213-1's it seems plausible that's what they did with them. Do you have a copy of that newspaper clipping and does it mention anything about baseball pictures? |
#97
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Are the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards really T206's ? ....I think so. ....What say you ?
It isn't different. The pack depicted on Jon's site is labelled LIGGETT & MYERS; therefore, it was issued 1913 (or later). If it had BB cards in it they would be T213-2 or T213-3, ONLY.
OR, it may have Movie stars in it from that era. For example... . Quote:
Your statement here tells us that you don't realize Jefferson Burdick incorrectly classified all three T213 sets as 1914-1915 issues. This timeline is a proven fallacy, on both ends of it. "T213-1"......1910 T213-2... .1914-1916 T213-3... .1916-1919 Quote:
You find it, you are good at searching for things. Frankly, I am tired of playing this game. You do not want to accept my research, fine.....that's your prerogative. It appears to me that many guys responding in this thread have more of an open mind. TED Z . |
#98
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I have been searching past threads. I did find one from 2009 where Jamie Hull
questioned the 1910 date but no one mentioned a Coupon newspaper clipping. |
#99
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that mentions Coupon cigarettes but it doesn't say anything about baseball pictures. http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=Picayune Last edited by Pat R; 01-01-2019 at 08:27 PM. |
#100
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Interesting how the clipping about the contest also has the "Coupon" in quotes. Pat, nice job finding the thread.
__________________
I'm always looking for t206's with purple numbers stamped on the back like the one in my avatar. The Great T206 Back Stamp Project: Click Here My Online Trading Site: Click Here Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com My Humble Blog: Click Here |
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