Separated at Birth? E90-1 Joe Jacksons

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=10052

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail2.aspx?lotid=9608

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Jeff,
You should know.... since you have twins....

Be well Brian

PS Same card.... Different grade.... ?????

PS 2 I hope the Family is well.

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Posted By: Adam

Since GAI slabs trimmed cards and gives them a number grade, perhaps it is the exact same card Jeff?

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Posted By: Matt

Did you email Bill?

My Trade/Sale Page

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Posted By: marty q

"WOW" that's great!!! what a mess!! gai has made.

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Posted By: David Smith

Looks like the same red dot in the top border. The same red line in the name and the same round splotch in the background to the left.

Good luck to whoever buys this card and tries to get their money back from GAI while they are in bankruptcy.....

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Posted By: robert a

wow...i'm really shocked.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm getting really fed up with how this grading stuff works. To say it is an art and not a science is bull. It's just bad.

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Posted By: Joe D.

jeff... clearly these two are not the same card.

the first was deemed trimmed -
and this different, other, new one has a number grade.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I wouldn't blame grading, Barry, I would blame incompetence.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

To me it's interchangeable. I can't fathom how the hobby evolved to become so beholden to professional grading when so many mistakes are made. In this case, it is a pretty serious one.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

You're assuming it was a mistake, Barry.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well then that is even a whole lot worse!

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Posted By: Wesley

If you believe the story in the REA description, the Jackson card was previously graded by PSA even if it was slabbed in a screw-down holder. So that makes two grading companies who thought the Jackson was OK.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joe, you just made me laugh out loud on that one.

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Posted By: Michael Steele

Well fiddlesticks.



Whoever bought this should have left it alone. I liked the history on the card. Yeah, PSA made a mistake back in 1993 or whenever it was but it was a cool story about the consigner to REA and how they kept it tucked away for 15 years only to find out it was trimmed.



But I know, it all about the $$$. Shame

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I think it's time to just accept the fact that many if not most high grade 100 year old cards in slabs have been altered in some way.

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Posted By: quan

after all that i'm not sure if the consignor will net much of a profit (he was probably expecting a GAI 5 or 6)...nice card though.

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Posted By: jdrum

I think you are on to something there.

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Posted By: Scott Dango

if you just look at the card in the screwdown, and you dont think of anything else, just looking at it, Its hard to say its trimmed...it looks like a good size to me....TED Z????? what do you think?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Well, surely SGC rejected it as well. Why on earth would anyone take that card to GAI unless they had to?

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Posted By: Rob D.

Because it was a Monday?

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Posted By: Bill Todd

Are my eyes playing tricks on me? Take another look at the borders on the REA card. Each one appears to have a red mark pretty much dead center. The one at the bottom is hidden inside the hook of the "f." The one at the right is beside his elbow (and actually inside the border). The one on the left is at the height of his outer sleeve and crosses the border. And they don't look like dots; they're short lines that are dead perpendicular. Then look at the marks on Leon's Matty that he posted in the "best pickups of 2008" thread. See the family resemblance? Not twins, but I'd bet at least second cousins.

What are the chances that this is a pre-production item?

Bill

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Posted By: Anthony S.

e90-1's sometimes have those lines.

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Posted By: Rob D.

You know, given the examples upon examples of errors in grading that have surfaced lately, I would think the real hobby panic in 2009 might be felt by those who specialize in collecting "ultra high grade" prewar type cards. How would you feel if you had placed your trust (not to mention your money) in someone assigning somewhat arbitrary numbers on a flip, only to find out that maybe all those 7s, 8s and 9s don't mean all that much in the end?

Talk about group panic.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm with you Rob, I feel the same way.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Good find, Jeff, thanks for posting.


Barry, you sound like you've developed concern for grading... If I visited NYC, if we met, if we ate supper, if we talked cards... you sound like I'd think someone would think after such a conversation.

Commercial card grading (somehow the word professional seems inaccurate) seems to be something along the lines of Mr. Madoff's enterprise, on a smaller scale. They make mistakes identifying cards, poses, spelling, trimming, doctoring, spooning, and even whether such a card can exist. First they sell numbers, then numbers with a 'registry', now they've added half numbers.

'Simply Put', I wouldn't collect cards if they all had to be graded. I hate the big holders, difficult to store. I don't want my cards on a wall, so that sunlight might fade them, or to encourage someone to break into my home. I like my cards so that each separate issue stands distinct, instead of all being in uniform slabs. Long ago I left 9 pocket sheets for 15 pocket ones, but soon realized that white border tobacco cards, for example, belong stacked in a cigar box, as they were when they were collected, stacked in teams. It's easy to sort the team by series to appreciate the development of the cards and the change in front designs. I value my cards, and I don't allow tiny children to handle them. The folks that do get to see them might not know necessarily what a particular card is worth, but they are aware of my concern for the card (aside from monetary value) and they're always careful and respectful; were the card in a slab it might as well be used as a coaster. I don't need little slips to help me identify a card, I can look at the front and back and do that, I can look at white border tobacco cards spread on a table, and point out the American Beauty cards. The grade of a card is of minimal importance to me, I care more about the player, the issue, the history of the game; which is just as well since the commercial graders seem to do such a lousy inconsistent job. I like to buy a card for the card's sake, not because it is in a slab with a slip on a registry, I'd rather pay less and have the card, the card is what I'm after. So I don't want money wasted on postage and grading fees. I care not about being on a registry. I enjoy the minutia of T206 infinitely more than I care about PSA... to be Daniel about it, I've not posted in his thread, I'm trying to not Blah someone else's Bling. Card grading sure does Blah the Bling of collecting that I enjoy. This thread about this Jackson card, the thread about the 3 mistakes on the PSA Doyle card, these seem to be Blahs for the hobby as I enjoy it. New collectors get in this, wrapped up with grading, see the foolishness of it, then abandon collecting. We need new young collectors following us, or all we have are worthless bookmarks. So with respect to Daniel's collecting, and I'm glad he collects cards and enjoys it, I'll post this here, not over there.

Frank W.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Frank- first off, I would be happy to dine with you if you come to the city. We can even get a Net54 dinner together around such a visit.

Regarding card grading I am not completely against it, but see it as a very mixed blessing. For every problem it's corrected, it's created one or two new ones.

If it were my call, and it's not, I think graders should do nothing more than authenicate a card. Protecting consumers from fraud is an extremely important and valuable service. But I would do away with the numbers. In that respect they have not done a very good job, and they haven't convinced me that they know anything more about grading than any advanced collector does. And even in the field of authentication, we've discovered they still have a long way to go. The examples on the board regarding the T206 Plank and Doyle are exhibits A and B.

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Posted By: Joe D.

as this is turning into an anti-grading thread,
I feel compelled to speak.....

As a kid in the hobby - pregrading.... if I went to buy a card at a card show - EVERYONE's card was mint - at least in their eyes. Whether it was trimmed, bumped corners, etc. On the flipside / any card brought to a table to sell to the dealer was 'vg-ex' even if it was mint. A dealer wouldn't mind ripping off a ten year old kid every step of the way.

It was frustrating to say the least.

With grading... the pendulum has shifted a bit away from the dealers. And that is a good thing.

I do not rely on the grading of the grading companies -
but I am happy that the hobby goes by the grading company opinion (and not the opinion of each dealer at each table).

I don't care how many mistakes the grading card companies make -
I will take a hobby with them over a hobby without them any day.



(of course there are good guys who are card dealers / many whom I really enjoy spending time with at shows and corresponding with / the intention of my post was not to paint them all bad.)

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Posted By: barrysloate

Joe- I would prefer a hobby where every genuine unaltered card is holdered, and every tampered card is kicked back. You and I can grade cards as well as they can.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Barry....

That would be better than nothing at all... but I like the number grade as well.

The key is not to rely on the number grade.

So if you and I look at a card that you are selling.... and you think it is VG, and I think it is G - - it is nice to have that third party opinion saying it is a VG.


Relying on the number grades is silly.
And for the most part - I think that collectors just take it is one single opinion.... then they have their own opinion and bid accordingly.
If a card looks overgraded - I do not bid it up to its number.... and if a card looks undergraded - I will bid past its number (value-wise).

Why remove the third party opinion altogether?
Just don't solely rely on it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's sounds reasonable, but if a grading service says it's VG, and I say it's VG-EX, who are they going to listen to? I'd say the graders get 99% of the credit, and I might get 1% on a good day. Fact is, the number on the label still rules.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Barry - -

in the end, I don't think the number on the label rules.

If it is a straight sale.... either one of us could decline the deal if we are not happy with it. In the end / the label just aids us to getting to a consensus opinion that we are both happy with.

In an auction... I believe there are easily found examples of overgraded/undergraded cards going differently than the expected value of a card. There again the opinion of the bidders (not the grading house) prevailed.


The one place I guess where I can see that I am completely wrong about grading not being the determining factor is PSA 9s and PSA 10s. I honestly don't see much difference (if any) between and 8, 9, and 10. I do, for the most part, see a difference between 7s and 8s and can justify price differences. The pricing of the 9s and 10s though seems to be completely driven by the number on the slab. From grades 1 through 8 though.... I think most collectors take the grade and combine it with their own opinion.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I agree that at the highest level, the number rules, because in the world of set registry the prestige of one's set is based entirely on a cumulative average, and that is totally objective. A set that grades 8.32 is always better than one that grades 8.28, without exception.

Hopefully collectors at the lower end of the grading scale do look at cards more closely, and see the grade on the label as just an expressed opinion. That would be a good thing.

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Posted By: leon

First of all I like all kinds of cards, slabbed and raw. I think the hobby is infinitely better with grading companies than without. I still like some cards raw too. I would imagine a third of my collection, or more, is still raw.

I sent in a 25k+ card last year to be graded. It came back as having been recolored. I didn't see it upon my first close inspection. When it was pointed out to me I could then see it. With no grading company in the picture I could have lost 10k on that one buy. I worked a return out with the seller and all was fine. As for a number on the slab. That part of the game is not for me but it is for a ton of folks. And you know what? I think that is great that they enjoy their collecting, even if by number. I think most on this board (hopefully) will buy the card and not the holder. As I mentioned recently I sent a card in for a 2nd review because I thought it was a 3 instead of a 2, in the last few weeks. If it was staying in my collection there is no way I would have sent it in because I don't care about the # too much. It was for sale though and, that card, was worth 2k more in the better condition. The grading company wouldn't budge. A few days later I sold it for a 3 price.....The buyer was smart and bought the card and not the holder...as well as I wasn't selling the holder either....As long as you enjoy what you do, and aren't harming anyone, then do what you want to, whatever makes you happy. regards

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Leon, I understand that the grading company found the recoloring. But another collector could have looked at it with good light, a loop, a shot of uv, and they'd have seen it too. Did you uv it before the grading? I'm not 100% anti-grading. As you're well aware I've had cards graded, you've helped me with that. The N172s before B&L existed were graded by SGC before they went into the auction. It is just when I saw frank spelled with a capital F in the 4th paragraph of that Put Simply post, I reflected for a while, then decided not to post in his thread and blah his bling, but at least to offer the alternative perspective in a more suitable thread, and this one Jeff started was a perfect one because of what's been done with that Jackson card.

For me, the Jackson card looks great! A very interesting player, great history, interesting set, everything I look for in a card. For me, I wish it was more worn and therefor more affordable. As it is, even if it is slightly smaller than some E90-1s (and it might have been bleached a tiny bit once) it is still too nice of an example for me to buy. Even though some kids years ago trimmed on their E90-1s so they'd be the same size as their white border tobacco cards. Even though kids in the 50s and 60s trimmed on them for the same reason. I'd think trimming went on even into the 70s on these, not to make the card appear a better grade, but just so they'd fit in with tobacco cards.

If I'd not seen that capital F I'd have let it slide...


frank.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Never mind. Not worth it.

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I'm feeling awful right now for you.

I don't know, the last three years of hearing you and some others bitch and moan and complain incessantly against grading, against the mental acuity of those who would chose grading, blah blah blah blah blah.

Endlessly.
Like a 3 year old trying to convince his parents ice cream really is good for you.
I thought I was actually very reasonable in my post, and simply laid out the reasons for which grading is right for me.

You however, were sooooo orginal to re-write my post as the reasoning you dislike grading so much. So sharp witted.

Wow. I wish I was that smart.


Edited to add: I would also just say that your reference to Barry suddenly becoming worthy of lunching with you because he has joined your rail against grading must be the biggest backhanded complement I've read on this forum.

Frankly, Barry deserves better, and regardless of his views on grading or any other card matter he strikes me as exactly the honorable kind of man who would grace any occasion.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Now you see... I left your thread alone, didn't blah what you like. Even was respectful of your collecting, and glad you collect.

Yet you had to come over here. Please play nice while over here. I won't call you a 3 year old while you're here.