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  #1  
Old 05-08-2008, 09:56 AM
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Posted By: Chris

I apologize if this has been discussed before, but I saw this signed T206 on eBay, and noticed that the JSA sticker was affixed to the back:

http://tinyurl.com/4wjyuz

Is there reasoning behind doing this and not encapsulating? Doesn't the sticker potentially ruin the back of the card?

Am I the only one that this kind of bothers?

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  #2  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:11 AM
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Posted By: Jantz

It bothers me also. I still haven't figured out why they attach the sticker to the card, but I'm assuming it has something to do with issues involving recreation of the card/autograph combination, i.e. a scammer could buy another card real or reprint, grab a sharpie, and presto, we now have another autographed T206 with proof ( GAI COA ) that its authentic.

You referenced to slabbing the card. I was at the Cleveland show last month and JSA was there authenticating. Not a encapsulating machine to be found. So, like I said before, I'm assuming that the sticker is affixed since they cannot bring the encapsulating machines to every show.

Or maybe its just shameless advertising.

Hope this answers your question,
Jantz

Edited because I'm not a good rellesp

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  #3  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:14 AM
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Posted By: Leslie Westbrook

...that it bothers. I don't understand it at all. Never have. It reminds me of all the times I've walked into antique stores and flipped through boxes/pages/stacks of old postcards/photos/trade cards and was demolished when I saw the items' prices written on the back of each one--although it was always written very neatly and in the corner....I just don't get it.

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  #4  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:14 AM
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Posted By: T206Collector

It totally disrespects the integrity of the card.



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  #5  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:16 AM
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Posted By: Chris

It does Jantz, thank you for the response.

I would much rather see a card like this slabbed so at least the process is "reversible" in the future.

I think it's nearsighted to affix a sticker assuming that collectors 20, 30... 50 years from now will always recognize a JSA/PSA, etc (I'm not picking on any particular service here) authentication. Who knows what the future brings. All I assume is that the sticker is not removable and would probably cause damage if attempted.

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  #6  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:19 AM
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Posted By: T206Collector

...very close to using a hot air hair dryer to try and curl the thing off the back of the McBride since the card is in crap condition anyway.

If I do that, I'll post about it.

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  #7  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:20 AM
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Posted By: Chris

Well good, I'm really glad to hear I'm not alone. Thank you all for validating my sanity.

It really, really surprises me that this could be accepted by any collector. Regardless of the condition of the card.

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  #8  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:20 AM
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Posted By: Matt

I believe it was just a matter of convenience - JSA is not an independent grading/slabbing agency so they have no way to slab cards on their own. I certainly agree, that ideally these cards should be slabbed, but I don't know if it makes fiscal sense for JSA.

ETA: I wonder what would happen if you submitted the card like that for encapsulation to BVG.

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  #9  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:26 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Did Spence affix one of those stickers to the fake Sal Bando autograph he blessed?

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  #10  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:38 AM
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Posted By: Joe D.

My memory is hazy...
are you referring to that video of the person switching the items on line in a card show?

I think anyone *anyone would have fallen for that trick.

But I am guessing they now have safeguards against that and it won't happen any more.


For the record - I trust JSA over any autograph authenticator - bar none.

would you prefer gizmo?



As far as the topic of this thread....
a sticker on the card is horrible.

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  #11  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:52 AM
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Posted By: leon

Now that's funny...

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  #12  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:02 AM
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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Situations such as these are not the fault of JSA or PSA. It is the fault of whoever submitted the item. Customers have three choices in this instance. The first choice has the disastrous results you see in Paul's scan. For the exact same cost (and, in some cases slightly LESS!), this same submitter could have opted to have that McBride card slabbed. Or, for $15 more, he could have opted for a full LOA. Obviously, the slabbing choice would have been optimal. The authentication companies are not fans of stickering such beautiful vintage material, either, but the ultimate decision is left to the collector who submits the item. The authentication companies may suggest otherwise (as I most certainly did on occasion), but if the customer wants small cert stickers, small certs they shall have. Let me state for the record that it used to pain me to apply a sticker to such pieces. I agree with all of you! As an earlier poster correctly postulated, authentication companies have no better alternative. I'm sure that they would welcome any suggestions. I for one can't think of any.

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  #13  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:06 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joe, there was no switching involved if I recall. Just a forged Sal Bando signature that was brought to JSA on a day when Bando was signing pictures. I'm not sure what safeguard could be put in place to prevent someone from authenticating an obviously fake autograph other than more knowledge and competence.

As for Gizmo, I wouldn't let him authenticate my office stapler let alone an autograph. But I also wouldn't trust any of the so-called authenticators because I am certain that most autographs out there are fake. Just spend some time speaking to an FBI agent who has investigated this sort of stuff and you'll come away never buying another autographed item again.

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  #14  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:36 AM
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Posted By: Joe D.

Jeff,

From what I remember -

they had an older lady wait on line to get an in-person autograph from the player at a show....
she did indeed get an autograph from that person
then slickly and quickly switched the autographed item for a similar fake autographed item.
the switch happened within 10 feet (about?) going from the player's chair to JSAs chair.

It was fast - at-show authentication.

I have to say absolutely any authenticator would have fallen for it.

But now that they know the hole in the system... I am just going to guess that they tag the item before it is autographed somehow.... and then the autograph.... and then the authentication...... or - the item itself does not get back into the collector's hands until JSA gets it straight from the player.


Seriously - it was a well planned trick that would have gotten anyone.


It is not a reflection at all (IMO) of JSAs authentication ability.
I liken it more to something like someone breaking into SGC and running the slabbing machine encapsulating cards.
I wouldn't think less of SGCs grading standards if that happened. And I would think SGC would learn from the situation to safeguard against it in the future.


As far as trusting autographs in general....
I am really not into autographs - so I don't care either way. But I guess I am somewhat in your camp.

Here is my not caring much about autographs story.....

I was at a dinner once that had old Brooklyn Dodgers and old Yankees. Pee Wee Reese was at my table, with his son. At the time... boxing was my passion (I actually worked at Ring Magazine for a little bit - but that is off the point). Anyway - there I am at the dinner talking boxing with Pee Wee Reese and his son. After I complimented his world series ring - Pee Wee Reese takes it off of his finger and says put it on. My dad comes over a short while later and says 'Joe - there are a lot of stars here (there really were) - don't you want to go around and get autographs?' I hadn't asked for one autograph, and didn't plan to. I said "Dad.... I am sitting here talking BOXING with PEE WEE REESE and his SON, and I am WEARING A WORLD SERIES RING..... I think I will stay right here." To me... that memory was far better than someone's autograph.


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  #15  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:40 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Here it is.

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  #16  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:45 AM
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Posted By: Mark

I loathe the stickering of vintage material as well. A modern, intrusive James Spence sticker on a vintage work of art is preposterous. But to Jodi's point, the submitter is given the choice.

A key thing that bothers me regarding PSA however, is that the stickering is the default setting. You have to check a box if you do NOT want your item stickered. I think it should be the exact opposite. If you miss this box or happen to overlook it, your item will be stickered by default.

This happened to me with a rookie-era Tony Perez game-used Bat. A beautiful piece... almost like a fine piece of furniture. But I overlooked the check box (it was one of my earliest submissions to PSA) and the bat came back with a sticker on the knob. The Bat is perfectly photographed in the LOA (from 3 different angles) so I see no need whatsoever, for the stickering.

Oh well... live and learn I suppose.

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  #17  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:46 AM
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Posted By: Mark Anderson

"I believe it was just a matter of convenience - JSA is not an independent grading/slabbing agency so they have no way to slab cards on their own. I certainly agree, that ideally these cards should be slabbed, but I don't know if it makes fiscal sense for JSA."

Matt, JSA actually partners with us (BGS/BVG) for slabbing signed cards and flat items (we will also have a large slab available in early summer to encapsulate up to 9" x 11.5" items).

We always recommend people have signed cards encapsulated with the serial numbers on the grading flip/label. Cards submitted for JSA/BGS authentication and slabbing are not directly stickered. However, I believe if a customer insists JSA adhere the sticker directly to the card, they will do it. So my guess is that, on the few stickered cards out there, it was due to the original submitters requesting it. By the way, I do not believe any cards have been both stickered AND encapsulated under JSA/BGS at this point.

Mark

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  #18  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:49 AM
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Posted By: Matt

Mark - I am aware of the current partnership - that's why I asked the question at the end of my post; if this card was submitted to you for encapsulation, do you remove the sticker and slab it?
I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the sticker got put on the card through JSA directly, before their partnership with you (and not through SGC); and JSA has no encapsulation facilities.

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  #19  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:56 AM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Yeah, no real switcheroo on poor JSA. Just a lousy fake autograph and a 5 second review. Two different JSA reps blessed the autograph. Disgrace. I wouldn't spend a nickel on any of this stuff unless it was on a check. I doubt Ty Cobb's wife forged his signature on a check made out to the electric company. I'm amazed that anyone spends money on autographs that they have not witnessed themselves.

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  #20  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:57 AM
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Posted By: Arthur Lobbe

I can understand both sides. I collect both cards and autographs and my collection is all over the board. I'm not totally condition sensitive as you can see by my sets in the registries. The placing on the sticker of the card does not offend me nor does it hinder whether or not I will buy the card. I certainly prefer the slabbing, however the cost and the wait (I am definitely ocd) tells me to just get the sticker. It can take months to get slabbed autographs back from the grading companies. As far as the Bando fiasco, until someone comes up with a better solution than Spence and PSA/DNA stop throwing stones. There are numerous reputable dealers that sell their products and stand behind everything they sell and I buy from them frequently, however "Operation Bullpen" was not a result of these honest dealers but the proliferation of crooks that worked their way in to the hobby and sold bad stuff. At least when you're buying something authenticated by Spence or PSA/DNA you know that the chances are it's going to be authentic. Everyone makes mistakes, but it's a better system than what we had.

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  #21  
Old 05-08-2008, 12:00 PM
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Posted By: Jantz

I have to agree with what Jodi says, there are other options for the owner to have an item authenticated.

As far as the Sal Bando video, I've watched it probably 5 times now on different occasions and it still disturbs me.


Jantz

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  #22  
Old 05-08-2008, 12:18 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"At least when you're buying something authenticated by Spence or PSA/DNA you know that the chances are it's going to be authentic."

--unless it's a Sal Bando autograph.

"Everyone makes mistakes, but it's a better system than what we had."

--you mean as opposed to nothing? I'm not convinced that JSA is anything better than nothing.


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  #23  
Old 05-08-2008, 12:21 PM
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Posted By: Joe D.

the JSA video doesn't bother me.
I could see how they were fooled.... and I would guess they have better safeguards for at-show authentication because of it.


What scares me when it comes to autographs is this video - -
http://www.signaturemachine.com/products/demo_page.htm


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  #24  
Old 05-08-2008, 12:52 PM
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Posted By: Arthur Lobbe

Jeff,
So what you are saying is that your chances of buying a "bad" autograph is the same whether you buy it authenticated by PSA/DNA or Spence or from the person selling the autograph. Because that's what it is when you have nothing. Was the purchasing of cards better before PSA and SGC? I don't think so. The names of the dealers from the past still linger on as do the names of the forgers in the autograph business. Without some sort of reputable authentication when you log on to Ebat there should be a notice "WELCOME TO THE WILD WEST".

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Old 05-08-2008, 12:54 PM
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Posted By: Matt

Arthur - I don't think you should have brought ebay into the discussion - most of us do approach ebay as if there was a "WELCOME TO THE WILD WEST" sign posted, even with PSA/SGC/JSA et al.

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  #26  
Old 05-08-2008, 01:00 PM
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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Arthur, I don't know that I necessarily feel that a PSA/DNA or JSA sticker would give me much comfort -- just too much fraud abounds in the world of autograph sales. Why bother taking a risk? At least with graded cards you know (usually) that the card itself is real, albeit perhaps trimmed or otherwise altered.

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Old 05-08-2008, 01:16 PM
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Posted By: Mark Anderson

"Mark - I am aware of the current partnership - that's why I asked the question at the end of my post; if this card was submitted to you for encapsulation, do you remove the sticker and slab it?
I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that the sticker got put on the card through JSA directly, before their partnership with you (and not through SGC); and JSA has no encapsulation facilities."

Hi Matt,

We would actually require this be resubmitted under the new JSA/BGS service. It is highly unlikely, but theoretical that a stickered (non-encapsulated) item could have had alterations done after the authentication. For instance, since BGS offers optional autograph grading, let's say a Mantle card was signed but had a few skips in the signature. In theory, someone might try to touch those skips up to get a higher autograph grade. Thus, the item would be be re-authenticated before being encapsulated (and with a new JSA serial number). As for the old sticker, that's a dilemma. We will not encapsulate cards with a PSA/DNA sticker, but that is because, 1) the same argument as above (regarding possible alterations after stickering) and 2) doing so might be viewed as Beckett validating the PSA/DNA opinion, and we aren't in a position to do that, as we don't purport to be autograph authenticators.

It hasn't happened yet and maybe never will, but I believe that, if the items passes re-authentication and the old JSA sticker was left on the item, the card could still be encapsulated, but the surface grade would suffer. We would not remove the old sticker. The other option would be to require that such examples can only be encapsulated, but not graded. [We currently offer three choices: 1) encapsulation/authentication only, 2) encapsulation/authentication with an autograph grade, or 3) encapsulation/authentication with a card grade and an autograph grade.]

Hope this helps,
Mark

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  #28  
Old 05-08-2008, 02:37 PM
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Posted By: Arthur Lobbe

Jeff,
It's like everything else, you look to minimize your risk. Unfortunately for the crazies like myself, we are going to buy autographs and this is the best way I can think of to do that. I don't have another alternative other than abstinence and I already abstain from enough things.

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  #29  
Old 05-08-2008, 02:49 PM
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Posted By: Dan McHugh IV

it pisses me off, to be honest with you. I bought a Elmer Flick with the JSA sticker attached to the back and thankfully the back had extra paper glued to the back under the sticker so when I took off the sticker it did no damage whatsoever to this GEM MINT card

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  #30  
Old 05-08-2008, 02:52 PM
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Posted By: Arthur Lobbe

NOW THAT'S MY KIND OF CARD!

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  #31  
Old 05-08-2008, 03:30 PM
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Posted By: Chris

Haha Dan - that's a cool card in any condition!


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  #32  
Old 05-08-2008, 03:33 PM
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Posted By: Matt

Mark - thanks for the well written answer.

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Old 05-08-2008, 08:00 PM
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Posted By: Rich Klein

In defense of Jimmy and his group -- I believe there is a presumption that if a person is signing at a show (and is the semi-star level of a Sal Bando) -- the signature one would see brought to a table for authentication would not be an issue.

So, you can see why a mistake like that was made -- BUT, if it were made again in a similar situation -- then there would be an issue.

And from what I remember of the video, it struck me as a bit of a set-up with the interview and the few words used about the value added part -- and then to do a fool job. Hopefully, this does not happen again for all concerned

Rich Klein

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  #34  
Old 05-08-2008, 08:25 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

1. For those autograph folks to put that sticker on the back of a card, or the front, is nuts!!

2. What is worse, is for the owner of a card to let those guys do it.

3. And worst of all, would be for the owner of the card to PAY someone to put that sticker on there.

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  #35  
Old 05-08-2008, 10:41 PM
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Posted By: Jantz

Was that card on Ebay not long ago? If so, I remember looking at the auction & cringing when I saw the sticker on the back. I think the sticker takes more away from the card than the damage on the bottom. But, thats just my opinion. Nice card though.

Jantz

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  #36  
Old 05-09-2008, 09:20 AM
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Posted By: ali_lapoint

im not sure understand some of you. when you buy an autographed card arent you buying the autograph more than youre buying the card? the sticker is tamper proof and ensures that the card in question is the same card that was authenticated. otherwise you could autograph any card you want and make multiple copies of the certification letter.

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  #37  
Old 05-09-2008, 09:39 AM
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Posted By: T206Collector

I like how they kept the name "Flick" in tact at the bottom. Beautiful card and signature, notwithstanding the condition.

And, I agree with the post that a sticker is better than a loose LOA or COA. But the better course is getting the card PSA/DNA graded (or previously SGC/JSA graded).... or even BVG/JSA graded, but I really dislike (a) how the JSA/SGC partnership disintegrated -- the blame falls squarely on JSA; and (b) BVG holdering pre-war cards.



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  #38  
Old 05-09-2008, 09:54 AM
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Posted By: Dan McHugh IV

and to jantz- yes this was the one on Ebay a few months back. I was not happy either when I saw the sticker on back but when I also saw the extra piece of paper under it, I hoped that I would be able to remove the sticker whithout further damaging the card and thankfully I was right.Also I had a feeling it would go as low as it did because of the condition which is not as important to me as having the auto of a HOFer on a vintage card, which is all I look for,
Dan

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  #39  
Old 05-09-2008, 10:48 AM
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Posted By: Rob

"but I really dislike (a) how the JSA/SGC partnership disintegrated -- the blame falls squarely on JSA; and (b) BVG holdering pre-war cards."

What don't you like about BVG holdering pre-war cards? Just wondering.

Rob

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  #40  
Old 05-09-2008, 11:20 AM
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Posted By: T206Collector

In an admittedly limited sample, their grading is not in line with my expectations. For example, when they graded a lot of T206 cards from a Boston find a few years back, all of the cards came from a scrap book and had evidence of glue on the reverse. Many of those cards received grades higher than I would anticipate SGC or PSA would give them.

I also don't really like their holders and, in particular, the plastic sleeve that every card is bound up in looks like crap when you scan it. It causes a distortion in being able to view the card in person and in a scan.



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Old 05-09-2008, 11:45 AM
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Posted By: ali_lapoint

the plastic sleeve is there to make sure the card doesnt slide around the holder. i have psa and sgc graded cards that wiggle around everywhere in their holders but the few bvg cards i have never move. it may make it harder to scan but i dont think they have scan ability in mind when theyre trying to preserve your cards. as for the grading, its all subjective anyway. who is to say that sgc is the pre-eminent end all be all when it comes to giving a scrapbook card a 2 or a 1? im assuming you saw some cards receive a 2 instead of a 1 because of the glue, doesnt seem like a huge deal to me. i have no problem with bvg and their grades. unlike sgc and psa they seem to grade all cards equally. there have been some examples where i thought, and this is just a personal feeling and in no bashing, that sgc and psa have given some cards better grades depending on the issue and player pictured.

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Old 05-09-2008, 12:14 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

If you collect only BVG cards, I have no knowledge of their consistency from card to card.

But if you primarily collect PSA and SGC cards -- and most pre-war cards are graded by PSA and SGC -- then you have to adjust your expectations when dealing with BVG.

Finally, in terms of scan-ability, most of the cards I am going to sell will not be sold at a show or in person. They will be sold on-line or in a catalog auction. In those instances, quality of image is everything.



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  #43  
Old 05-09-2008, 12:25 PM
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Default COA Stickers Affixed to Cards

Posted By: ali_lapoint

they might not assume the cards they grade are for sale. grades are prety much uniform throughout the hobby. you arent going to see a creased up card in a bvg 10 holder. i dont think there is much of a difference other than maybe a card getting a 3 that you feel should be a 2. again, on any given day a card given an sgc or psa 2 could be re-submittd and get a 3 the next time around. i dont see that much of a difference between the three companies.

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Old 05-09-2008, 01:07 PM
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Default COA Stickers Affixed to Cards

Posted By: leon

You need to put your full name out here to continue giving personal opinions concerning grading companies. Nothing personal. Email me if you have any questions....thanks

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  #45  
Old 05-09-2008, 03:47 PM
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Default COA Stickers Affixed to Cards

Posted By: T206Collector

Were BVG 3s, 4s and 5s, if memory serves me. Not 1s and 2s.

For whatever that's worth.



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  #46  
Old 05-09-2008, 10:08 PM
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Default COA Stickers Affixed to Cards

Posted By: Eric B

If the COA's are easily removed without card damage, but disintegrate when doing so, no harm done. Hopefully that's the goal.

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