PSA vs. SCG -- Discount Valuation

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Over the past year or so there has been much discussion regarding the issue of slabbed graded altered cards. During those discussions, we've come to learn from experts such as Kevin Saucier that the problem is a real one, that he knows of many examples of slabbed altered cards in graded PSA holders. We've also seen posts describing how alterers will wait until they know PSA's experienced graders are away on hobby business to submit their cards. And who can forget Jim Crandell's candid description of the deal PSA made with him to get him to re-submit his cards? That told us that upon re-submission (at least from its best customers), PSA will not only agree not to look for alterations, but should they inadvertently find one, they will go one step further and return the altered card in its original holder back to the sender. And last night came the latest revelation -- that a T206 PSA 6 Broad Leaf 460 Elberfeld (twice confirmed by PSA as being unaltered) from the upcoming REA auction shows such evidence of trimming that the auction house felt it could not in good conscious offer the card without a disclosure.

So the question I want to raise is whether we have come to a point, or will soon come to a point, where slabbed graded cards in PSA holders from certain issues will sell at a discount relative to their SGC counterparts? Speaking only for myself, I will not buy PSA cards from certain issues without either knowing the provenance or without having an express understanding with the auction house/seller that should SGC refuse to cross it over with a numerical grade, I will receive a full refund. (What the grade SGC gives it is not the issue, only that they are willing to opine that it is not altered). It seems to me that the best way to clean up the hobby in regard to altered slabbed cards is via economic incentive. Should PSA (or any grading company for that matter) learn its cards sell at a discount relative to its competitors', then that revelation will do wonders to get them to implement all necessary measures to both detect alterations as well as remove from circulation its graded slabbed altered cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

PSA found the answer to this problem by creating the set registry. It was a brilliant piece of marketing.

I have a fairly large inventory of both PSA and SGC graded cards, and I can't tell you how much better an SGC card of comparable grade looks over its competitor's.

I think in the collector market, say between the grades of Good to Excellent, it is just a matter of time before SGC cards sell for a premium over PSA. I think in some ways we are already seeing it.

But the set registry market, which I deem a different hobby altogether, props up the prices of these higher grade PSA cards. Only time will tell if that will ever change.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

1. Grading (in the first place)

2. Set Regustry

3. half grades


How do they keep a straignt face?



Set Registry seems to be slab collecting, not card collecting. I'd love to see us all get back to card collecting.

And I agree with Corey's concerns and Barry's observations.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

We never will. As long as people are willing to dump huge sums of cash into slabbed cards, they will be a presence, and as long as people actually care about registry competition, they will buy slabbed cards with high grades assigned to them. Objective reality is less important than perceptions and attitudes of those spending the money on the cards (if PSA says it is an "8" it is an 8 even if it was cut out of a sheet. Twice). I just wish people would not confuse opinion with revelation.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: JimB

Yawn....

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Posted By: Neal Kane

haw

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Posted By: LetsGoBucs

I don't know. I should state that I really don't buy graded cards so its not like I really care.

I've believed for a long time that with the advent of grading that we'd get to a point where rarity and desirability of a particular card would become the drivers of price. Yes, condition will always impact the price, but its becoming well known that many high grade cards have (and can) been altered. Whether thats by removing creases, taking out stains, sharpening edges and corners, etc. That to me should lessen the extra demand between a 6 and a 7 or a 7 and an 8 if they both look nice.

But then the set registry came along....it was a brilliant marketing move. Really brilliant. It hits just the right spot in the market. Guys who likely used to play the sport (and competed) plus guys with large disposable incomes (likely competing rather well in corporate world or in business for themselves) - put the two together - large disposable incomes plus competitive urges and suddenly you've unleashed a bragging rights type of game. And who hasn't been there - even think of the traditional Thanksgiving day extended family football (or any other) game where you'll kill yourself to beat your brother in law for the ninth straight year - even though you know that for the next 10 days you'll barely be able to get out of bed - same thing with the cards - might have blown 20 grand for some stupid commons BUT your the BEST IN THE WORLD!!!!

I still think we'll end up with grades for pre-war cards being mostly secondary. I don't think we'll get there for post-war cards. So I don't think there will be a premium of one over the other....I think the importance of the grade itself will diminish and the importance of rarity in combination with demand will increase. I think we see some evidence of that with things like the Babe Ruth Baltimore rookie card, boston garters, and it will just take time to filter through all the hobby.

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Posted By: John

"we've come to learn from experts such as Kevin Saucier that the problem is a real one, that he knows of many examples of slabbed altered cards in graded PSA holders."

Really Corey, I know Kevin talks about this and hints but has he ever really put proof on the table, nice guy and all I'm sure. Kevin talks a big game, but what has he really blown the lid off of honestly?

That trimmed cards are in holders....I'm speechless (all sarcasm intended), to date all he has really shown via is website is how to use Photoshop and chemicals to make bogus flips.... http://www.alteredcards.com/index.htm

Jim B well said..."Yawn"!

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Posted By: Steve

PSA will not only agree not to look for alterations, but should they inadvertently find one, they will go one step further and return the altered card in its original holder back to the sender.






I was told something very different. But it must be true since I read it here.


Steve

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Posted By: cmoking

Corey, you are now FYS' best friend!

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Steve,

Jim C's own words in describing his deal with PSA:

"Every card that is not upgraded to an 8.5 or a 9 is returned in the same holder it was sent to them in.

Jim"

From the context in which this was said coupled with followup posts by myself and others, there was no question that the return in same holders applied to all cards rejected for an upgrade, regardless if the reason was that the card was altered.

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Posted By: Steve

"Every card that is not upgraded to an 8.5 or a 9 is returned in the same holder it was sent to them in.


Where does it say "even if the card is found to be altered"? Or did you just assume that?

PSA has protocols in place for when they ever find an altered/counterfeit card in a PSA slab. I must have said this
5 times in that very same thread yet you continue only to harp on what Jim said.

The fact of the matter is if they find a card in thier slabs that is counterfeit or that they deem altered
they will do what they have to do to get the card out of the slab. A phone call will be made to the owner of said
card. If you don't want to believe me give PSA a call. (I did) They will tell you the same thing.

Steve


edited for typos, I'm sure that their are more.

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Posted By: MikeU

Corey,

The solution can not be for PSA to improve. The solution can only be to pay Kevin to certify the already PSA certified cards.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Thread cited: PSA Half Grades(last post 1/20/08)

Question asked (by Barry Sloate to Jim Crandell):

"Jim- my comment was not meant to be unfriendly. But there is still one aspect of this process that simply baffles me. And I would like your take on it, or anyone else's:

If during the course of examining your collection, PSA finds just one card that is clearly trimmed- let's say it's just one card out of 22,000, and surely even you will admit that is possible- do they pull it out of circulation and put it in an "Authentic" holder, or do they pretend they never saw it and just throw it back in the pile?

Because I am going to give them some credit here and say their grading skills have improved over time, and cards graded 5-10 years ago may not be as state of the art as those graded today. So now that they are about to get an inordinate number of resubmissions, they are going to see things. And I would like to know how they are going to handle it.

Fair question I think."

Response (by Jim Crandell)

"Barry,

Every card that is not upgraded to an 8.5 or a 9 is returned in the same holder it was sent to them in.

Jim"

That pretty clearly says to me that pursuant to the deal PSA made with Jim C, they would not take his altered cards out of circulation. Subsequent to that exchange I and others, both in that thread and others, challenged Jim on that point and not once did he ever refute it.

What matters to me is not what people say but what they do. I have little interest in what public spin PSA is putting on this question. Indeed, it would be quite naive to believe they would ever admit publicly that they will consciously allow an altered graded card in a PSA holder that was re-submitted to them to return to circulation. I can just see the legal sharks circle around them on that one. What they do out of the public glare, though, is a different matter, and that is what means a heck of a lot more to me.

But, hey, maybe I do have this all wrong. So let's put it to a test. Jim Crandell has agreed to re-submit all 22,000 of his cards to PSA. Let him come on and refute what I have said. Let him tell us that when he resubmitted those 22,000 cards to PSA, he was okay with them checking for alterations. And for those found to be altered, PSA refused to return them to him in their current holders. If in fact Jim will come on and say this, then you know what? I'll be a very happy guy. Because then FINALLY we will see both Jim C and PSA putting their money where their mouths are and doing something good for the hobby, despite their perceptions that what they are doing is against their economic interest.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Somehow I think PSA will be more likely to determine that one of their graded cards is altered if it is an inexpensive card. Do you think they'll pay full freight for a 10K card that is obviously altered and in their holder?

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Posted By: MikeU

"Corey, you are now FYS' best friend!"

Cmoking,

My wagon is now hitched to the Gizmo Cards & Autograph Team :>)

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Posted By: Steve

I would hope that they would act like SGC did when they found that Doyle that was altered. The one that even Olbermanns
driver could see.



Corey

Yeah that is alot easier then simply calling them and asking them what there position is. You would rather take as gospel what Crandall said, then hash it around with a few other guys on a message board. I suppose if you say it enough times you will get plenty of people to believe it as fact.

Have you still missed the part where I replied in the very same thread?

I called them and got my answer. Perhaps you should too? You won't because you would rather bash.


FWIW I appreciate both SGC and PSA.

Steve

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Posted By: Steve

From the context in which this was said coupled with followup posts by myself and others, there was no question that the return in same holders applied to all cards rejected for an upgrade, regardless if the reason was that the card was altered.





That was some leap lol


Steve

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Posted By: James Gallo

Steve,

I would like to know what knowledgable person you spoke to at PSA that gave you this ground breaking information. From my experience with PSA there aren't too many people you can get on the phone that really know what they are talking about. Well at least not to an average person like me.

So since you are so inclined to believe what PSA told you over the phone, how about letting us know who told you this because without a name I can tell you I have 2 T-206 Honus Wagners but that doesn't mean anything if you don't know who I am and if there is a chance it might be true.


James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Steve

Joe Orlando

He had told everyone on the forums that they could call him.

Thanks for inclining to believe me.


Steve


edited to add:

maybe Leon could phone Joe that way someone you believe can put this to rest?


maybe someone should call him so these reckless rumours can be put to bed.

Steve

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Steve,

So there is no misunderstanding, could you please confirm the following.

1) Upon re-submission PSA will look for alterations.

2) No card found to be altered will be returned to its owner in its original slab, period.

3) PSA has taken no actions inconsistent with the above two statements.

4) Jim Crandell has either misrepresented or misunderstood his re-submission deal with PSA.

I'm not trying to be confrontational with you. As I said, if in fact these statements are true, I'll be very happy. And if Joe Orlando is willing over the phone to say they are, maybe he would be willing to come on this board and in writing confirm them. After all, this is an issue of vital importance to the hobby and I would think he would relish the favorable publicity such a written statement would garner for his company. He would also in the process satisfy a few doubters who are reasonably skeptical of statements made only over the phone but not in writing.

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Posted By: Steve

No Corey, I gave the phone number, so call him and get the poop straight from the source.

The only person(s) that misunderstood what Jim said were you and your buddies here that disected what he said and used it and came up with your reckless statement. All I know is what he told me, call him and he will tell you. What else can i say?

It is very obvious that no matter what he says you will not believe him.



I will now delete the phone number and if anyone else wants it they can email me.

Stev

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Posted By: leon

Corey has asked me to call Joe Orlando to ask these questions so I will. I did call him many months ago, about something else, and didn't get a return call. I will try again and report back.....

edited to add....I just (10:54am CST) left a v-mail for Joe with my 2 phone numbers......we'll see

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Posted By: scott levy

Upon discovering that our PSA 1 Cobb/Drum was rebacked we sent it to PSA for examination. Joe & Co. were quick to acknowledge that they made a mistake - much to their credit.

Their first recommendation however, was not to take the card out of circ, it was to ask BVG (the previous slabber) to re-slab the card thereby relieving PSA of any negative consequences. For obvious reasons, this offer was somewhat upsetting to hear and was promptly rejected.

Their second recommendation was, to their credit, to provide adequate compensation and ensure that the card is never released back into the market. Had this been their first offer, I would have said that PSA acted highly ethically and very honorably. Nevertheless, the end result was acceptable for my dad and I and positive for the hobby.

-Scott

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Posted By: Matt

Scott - in your story, how was the contact with PSA initiated - did you submit the card for a re-grade and they found the re-backing on their own, or did you find the re-backing and therefore contacted them to make amends.

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Posted By: leon

That was the same card I wanted to buy in the Beckett holder, off of ebay, and their then President wouldn't stand behind it. I asked him that if I bought it and it turned out to be rebacked would he compensate me for it. His answer was something like....If it's in our holder then that is it. Period.........Thankfully that President is long gone from Beckett....

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Posted By: Tom Nieves

http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=5212&universeid=314

How to Submit Previously Graded PSA Cards

Previously graded PSA cards should be submitted just like ungraded submissions with the only exception being that they be submitted on a separate form, much like crossovers or Tall Boys. They must also be separated by service level. Again, just like a normal PSA submission.

In addition, the cards must be submitted at the level of their declared value. Since the cards are already graded by PSA, this process should be even easier than with ungraded cards. Furthermore, keep in mind that we are not looking to charge any submitter for what they think a card might receive (the value after the half-point increase). We simply want the submitter to pay the appropriate fee based on the current status and value of the card.

For example, if you submit a 1955 Topps Sandy Koufax in PSA NM-MT 8, we would require that the card be submitted at the $60 Super Express level (cards with a declared value of $1,000-$2,499) even though the card will most certainly be worth significantly more (placing the card at the $100 Walk-Thru service level) if the card receives the half-point bump. PSA is charging the customer based on the current state of the card, not what the outcome might be.

Last but not least, remember that cards submitted under this program will never be in jeopardy of going down in grade. So, the only risk in submitting cards under this new program would be the cost of the submission since there is no guarantee that the cards will reach the higher, half-point grade. In other words, cards submitted under this service will always be returned to the customer, at minimum, in the same grade they arrived in.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Scott, it sounds like PSA was really concerned about cleaning up the hobby! Nice first offer they made.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Why would PSA be concerned with cleaning up the hobby? They're a corporation, they have stockholders. They are only interested in their bottom line.

Because clearly in the course of reviewing these thousands of submissions, they are bound to see many errors they made in the past; but according to their agreement, there is nothing they can do to rectify those mistakes.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, I agree -- I was being facetious. That being said, their suggestion that a rebacked card should be removed from a PSA holder and put back into a BVG holder is sleazy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just the idea that if they see a clearly misgraded card, or an altered one, their hands are tied is unacceptable. There is no doubt that as they reexamine these thousands of resubmissions, they are going to see some obvious errors. And they will just toss them aside and put them right back into circulation. That is an extremely odious policy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

delete

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just the idea that if they see a clearly misgraded card, or an altered one, their hands are tied is unacceptable. There is no doubt that as they reexamine these thousands of resubmissions, they are going to see some obvious errors. And they will just toss them aside and put them right back into circulation. That is an extremely odious policy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

delete

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Hi Barry.
Hi Barry.
Hi Barry.

-Al
-Al
-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

Al- can't you see I was trying to make an emphatic point?

My computer went nuts. I will delete two of them right now.

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Posted By: scott levy

Matt,

Card was listing on ebay, Net54 let me know in no uncertain terms what the deal was with it, I sent it into PSA for review/verification and that's where the story starts....

-Scott

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Posted By: Matt

Scott - just to clarify - you tipped off PSA to the fact it might be altered or you just asked them for a review, giving no mention of the specific issue.
thanks.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I have no special deal with Joe Orlando.

The obsession that a certain poster has about my collection is unbelievable. I feel like I'm David Letterman and someone is stalking me.

For someone who has never seen a card in my collection, who has no idea about the special care that went into buying(mostly raw) each and every card to represent that I may have a number of altered cards in my collection is completely irresponsible.

I think its called jealousy.

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Posted By: leon

I am sure there are a lot of people jealous of you.....I know I am.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

Yeah...but at least you are not obsessed with me.

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

ob·ses·sion [uhb-sesh-uhn]

1. the action of acting on a cause promoted by a certain board member.
2. the pointing out of hypocritical actions by said certain board member related to said cause.
3. the amusement over the denial of the undeniable by said certain board member.
4. the admiration over the consistency of said certain board member not to do, say or admit anything that he perceives could lower the value of a single of his baseball cards.
5. the state of being obsessed.
6. the act of obsessing.

Jim, yes you're right. I guess I am obsessed. If you'd like, I'd be happy to give you my definition of jealousy.

Oh, and by the way, next time you talk to your buddy Joe Orlando, could you please ask him to return Leon's call?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Corey,

I must have said 100 times and you must have complained 100 times that my efforts to improve card grading standards are for all submissions from this point forward.

I am not resubmitting my cards as I am very happy with them. You have never seen them and do not have a clue how much care I put into buying each card.

I happen to be visible so I am an easy target but not one of the top 500 collectors of psa cards to my knowledge has resubmitted cards because they may have a few that are altered.

And in answer to your original complaint, PSA and SGC cards will trade around each other in terms of price. PSA cards generally have a higher value today in large part due to rthe phenomenal success of the registry but SGC has its advocates--particularly in prewar cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

But Jim, you just did resubmit your cards. The problem wasn't with you, but with PSA.

Instead of the grading company reexamining the group with an objective eye, they simply gave you bonus points wherever they could.

Instead of the process being risk/reward- some cards may grade higher, others may grade lower or not qualify for a grade at all- it was exclusively a reward system. That really doesn't seem fair to me. And I am not blaming you; you did what was in your best interest.

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Posted By: cmoking

"I am not resubmitting my cards as I am very happy with them. "

I thought you just resubmitted your 1963 Fleer set? You weren't happy with those 8s?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Thats their policy--noone would send in if they could go up or down. I believe a PSA 8 grade means that it is at least an 8.

King,

I wasn't clear--guys like Corey want me to submit my cards to SGC or want PSA to look at them again for alterations. It seems like he posted 100 times on this.

Yes--I plan on having all my cards looked at for upgrades and am very encouraged that I will continue to do well based on my belief that I have a lot of very high-end 8s and how well I did on the 63 Fleers.

I am sending in 1,000 more raw cards to be graded this weekend and will include another moderate size set for them to review. Of course good or bad I will let everyone know how I did.

Jim

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Posted By: leon

Yes, I am still waiting for good ole Joe to call me. I left both phone numbers and, as anyone that has tried to get a hold of me will testify, it's rather easy.

Jim- here's the rub on PSA...You said:

"Of course good or bad I will let everyone know how I did."

Actually, you will only need to let us know the good or neutral.


Personally.....
I don't mind the Registry at all. I think those folks can be as passionate about collecting as anyone. No harm at all. If they want to compete in the slab number game it's fine by me. ... best regards

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Posted By: CoreyRS.hanus

Jim,

My goal, and I thought yours, is to rid the hobby of slabbed altered cards. To do that, there are various fronts from which to attack the problem. One, which to your credit you have been on the forefront on, is to call auction houses to task for actions they do to cards prior to submitting them for grading. Through your efforts significant progress has been on this front.

Another front is to remove from circulation graded altered cards. This front is just as important to the goal of cleaning up the hobby as the other front. Yet, no doubt due to the potentially adverse economic impact this front could have on the value of certain of your cards, you not only have been very silent but have gone further and said that your cleaning-up-the-hobby crusade is not meant to encompass that front.

Respectfully that makes no sense. This hobby can NEVER be clean as long as grading companies and collectors will not take steps to remove from circulation such cards.

You on your own initiative decided to resubmit all 22,000 of your cards to PSA in the hope of getting upgrades. To say PSA has no duty to look to see if any of the cards are altered and for those that are to refuse to return them to you in their current holders is nonsensical. Of course they should be doing that. And, to any person with a thread of common sense who sincerely wants to see the hobby cleaned up, their refusal to do so is just as wrong and just as blameworthy as an auction house refusing to stop its practice of prepping cards prior to submission.

Earlier on this thread it was suggested that I have it all wrong, that PSA does/did not make deals to turn a blind eye to alterations for re-submissions. And that in fact for re-submissions they do look for alterations and will not return an altered card in its original holder. And too I have used your description of your re-submission arrangement for my own nefarious purposes and distorted what you said. So I, or Leon or anybody else was told to call Joe Orlando directly to clarify this once for all. Well, we're still trying.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Joe,

Neutral is bad....or at least predomintly neutral.

Corey,

My goal is not to rid the hobby of slabbed or unslabbed altered cards, its to stop the flow of newly altered cards into the hobby--while it sounds noble, not one of the 500 largest holders of psa graded cards has or would submit their cards with the sole purpose of ridding the hobby of altered cards--nor will I....said for about the hundredth time which you know.

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Posted By: Matt

Jim - it seems your stance is inconsistent - perhaps you can clarify. You are trying to stop the flow of newly altered cards into the hobby. The premise to that is that you believe having altered cards in the hobby is bad. If that is the case, then it becomes difficult to understand (from an ethical standpoint) why you won't take measures to remove such cards from your own collection. So, I'm guessing that perhaps that is not your premise, to which I ask, why do you feel it important to stop the flow of altered cards into the hobby?