Question regarding early card grading..

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Posted By: Dave

With some of the amazing prices that I keep seeing high grade cards getting nowadays, I'm curious if anyone here has any record of what high grade cards would bring at auction when the grading companies first started out?

I guess GAI was before PSA? What would a high grade GAI T206 go for the year the company came out?

Same question with first year PSA came out...how much would a PSA 8 T206 common sell for at the time??

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't know the answer to your question, but PSA has been around much longer than GAI. There were even earlier companies, ASA and CSA, but they were jokes. Their cards are worth less than raw cards.

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Posted By: Dave

I guess what amazes me is before card grading companies came along, it seemed like nrmt-mt values on cards were what they were worth. A T206 common in nrmt condition might have been worth $50....suddenly because of the grading companies, a slabbed one is worth $1500...I just cant imagine when the grading first started there was a huge price jump...maybe at first a PSA 8 was worth jsut that...$50?

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Posted By: Chris Mc

I thought PSA was first and GAI broke off from them? Answer to the question is,Imo early graded cards hold less value for collectors who buy the card and not the holder.

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Posted By: William

At the 1997 National in Cleveland, I sold a T206 common from the Southern find for SMR (I think $320 at the time). I thought I was getting big $ for it. When trying to get a gauge of prices for PSA 9T206, I distinctly seeing a T206 SLer PSA 9 with $1,000 sticker.

In the same timeframe I had a PSA 8 Tinker & Chance I sold for $800 or so each and T206 Young portrait PSA 7 for $800.

I wish I had those and other cards back.

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Posted By: MW

Dave,

I've got one of the earlier SMRs (Sportscard Market Reports) from PSA dated September 1995. T206s are listed for $90 in NM condition (PSA 7) and $150 in NM-MT condition (PSA 8). Based on my memory from that time period, those values would be pretty close to actual selling prices.

It is also perhaps interesting to note that on the cover there is a list of "Cards Recently Sold at Auction or Private Sale". Included is a T204 Ramly Keeler, PSA 8, that brought $1,900.

Edited to add: William's sale is almost exactly the same as the September 1995 SMR price. In the same SMR quoted above, the PSA 8 value for T206 Southern Leaguers is $340.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I would go to a show and everybody would have Mint and NearMint cards.

A flood of them on every table.

The problem "NearMint" was different from table to table... and most of those Near Mints were just VG or possibly Excellent.


The grading companies may be a bit off from time to time... but it is still a vast improvement from the all near mint, all the time card shows.

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Posted By: Dave

I just wonder where the ceiling will stop? I don't think 10 years ago anybody in their right mind would have ever conceived paying $1500 for a common T206...

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Posted By: Dave

ALl I can say at those prices are wow...although may be somewhat like today..SMR prices that weren't quite accurate.

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Posted By: MW

Dave,

Actually, SMR prices back then were commensurate with real market values. Just about everything in a PSA 8, with only a few exceptions, sold for SMR, plus or minus 10%. Some PSA 9s sold for higher levels, but nowhere close to the same amounts/multipliers as today.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

For much of its earliest incarnation, the SMR had prices for cards that did not exist. I wrote an article on this point in the old VCBC. PSA, it seems, made up prices for cards in the higher grades in many sets and even had the nerve to put + signs on them from month to month as if those non-existent cards had actually transacted and had actually seen increased prices. Shortly before the article came out PSA altered its advertising for the SMR to remove claims that it was based solely on real transactions.

How the SMR rates relative to actual transactions now, I have no idea. I do not subscribe.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i can speak to this...

first of all (dave), PSA has been around since about 1991 (you really didn't start seeing slabs at shows, however, until about 1996 or so...someone correct me if i am wrong, but about 7 years ago or so, mke bake (former head grader at PSA) & steve Rocchi (former president of PSA), started GAI...that's today's history lesson.

now, onto early card prices. around 1998/99 you could buy a PSA 9 common for around $1000 (check the old mastro's catalogs/prices realized), i have a catalog from 1999, they hadm no joke, almost half of all of the PSA 9 population in the auction, some where listed as singles, then they had entire lots (28 SLer PSA 9's) sold for $28k ($1000 each)...this was mind boggling at the time. page after page, PSA 9's...most sold right around that $1000 price...

a close friend of mine, who is a BIG time collector, bought a ton of PSA 9's around 2000-2002, he paid $900-1200 per card, on average...guess what? he has made his money 10 fold today...

i bought my first PSA 8 about 3 years ago for $450, wilbur goode...i just sold him for $2000+, not 8's are on the rise again.

interesting topic.

p.s. 3 years ago, i was buying PSA 6's @ $60 each, and PSA 7's @ $150 each.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Mike is correct. Three years ago I was buying PSA 7s for between $150 and $225. 8s at $450-550. I even bought a Mathewson Dark Cap 7 for under 1K at the time.

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Posted By: Dave

Interesting....so what's a guess as to the ceiling people are going to pay for a "Will Bill Donovan" in a PSA 8? $3000? $6000? I guess if it were that easy to answer we'd all be rich. It is unbelievable that back then there were that many PSA 9's together...wonder if it was because the first years of grading there were just that many good cards still out there and the best were all slabbed at the beginning...or were grading standards a little more kind back then and have gotten tougher since?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hey Dave-Wild Bill Donovan is someone I collect! I just bought a 7 for over $1100-let me know when that 8 becomes available for an upgrade.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The founder and president of GAI was the president of PSA. The top grader at GAI used to be the top grader at PSA.

GAI is only a few years old, but the guys who run it were the top dogs at PSA numerous ealier years.

In fact, for autographs, Mike Gutierrez was alternately an expert for GAI and PSA/DNA and Mastro; James Spence for PSA/DNA and SGC; and Steve Grad for PSA/DNA and Mastro-- so there is mixing and matching of employees between companies ... It is easy for a graded autographed card to own SGC and PSA or PSA and GAI cards authenticated by the same person in the same office in the same city.

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Posted By: Dave

For me to get a PSA 8 Donovan I have to take two PSA 3's and a PSA 2 and send them to you like that....let me know if that works...

Dave

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i used to own the wild bill donovan, throwing, PSA 9, 1/1...what a blazer, i recently sold it...

i am selling many high grade cards now, to refocus on rare variations & my PSA rare back collection.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

COIN COLLECTING....

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Posted By: Anonymous

Only 3 years ago buying PSA 6's at $60 and 7's at $150? That just amazes me...too bad I was late getting in the game. Had I bought some higher grade stuff back then I would actually have some money today to afford the Matty's and Young's in lower grade!

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I believe that you look at the increasing prices for graded cards and the growth of the internet carefully, you will see that they correlate very closely. As customers bought more and more cards over the internet they realized that they would rather buy graded cards than cards in raw condition just because it was safer.

The second factor is the growth in the PSA and SGC registries.

The third factor is the auction houses are almost exclusively selling graded cards.

No wonder the price of high end graded cards are skyrocketing.

Peter

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Posted By: MVSNYC

peter- it always seems like i dissagree with you (don't take it personally)...

to me, your post has too much verbage in it...these mid-high grade cards are consistently rising in price for one main reason:

supply & demand.

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Posted By: peter chao

MVSYNC,

I agree that what I said was verbose, but read it anyway, I basically agreed with you that the demand was increasing because: 1) the internet 2) the registries and 3) the auction houses.

Peter

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Posted By: MVSNYC

agreed...


wow we agreed on something.

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Posted By: George Dreher

I'd beg to differ with the individual who mentioned ASA and CSA. ASA of course was the first grading company and was grading cards a couple of years before PSA even came into existence. I purchased a huge collection of some of the earliest ASA slabs some years back and submitted them to PSA. The ASA PQ grades all graded equivalent to their PSA counterparts....ie. ASA PQ 8 graded PSA-8 etc. Not one of them came back as altered or trimmed.

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Posted By: Dave

What happened with ASA? I was away from cards altogether during that time...Did they go bankrupt? Merge with someone? As soon as they were done, what about the cards in thier slabs? Worthless and all needed to be crossed over to another company?

I don't think I've ever even seen an ASA slab...

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Posted By: George Dreher

I think that once PSA got rolling, their advertising was superior and so was their slab....much thinner and stackable. If I'm not mistaken, ASA still exists, but it is probably a total joke now? There are ASA slabs on eBay right now. I came across some in the eBay stores and a Pete Rose auction also.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I purchased a few ASA graded cards a few years back. First off, the cards were at a discount rate because they were in ASA holders. The grades were 5 and 6. I popped them out of the ASA slabs and submitted them to SGC and received a full grade lower on one card a two grades lower on the 6. No big deal to me because I figured they were generously graded to begin with.

I was never brave enough to purchase a PRO graded card. I figure I wouldn't want the frustration.

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Posted By: JimB

I remember that back in the mid-90's the SMR was actually a pretty accurate indicator of what cards actually sold for. I was collecting high grade T206 HOFs at the time and buying them at SMR give or take 10%. I remember having a hard time pulling the trigger on a PSA 8 Matty portrait at $250 over SMR in 1995. I'm glad I did.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hi George- I am the one who mentioned ASA and CSA. While I trust your experience with ASA was positive, the owner of the company was ethically challenged, and many ASA cards did in fact turn out to be trimmed. As a result, a number of collectors were burned by them.

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Posted By: Aaron

I have had alot of experience with ASA from the beginning. I remember when PSA started, I contemplated which company to use to get my cards graded. Most of my experiences with ASA have been negative. I once sold a Playball Joe Jackson ASA 6 ex-mt on ebay. This customer called me back a few weeks later stating after they had crossed over/broke out of slab and sent to PSA,it received only a PSA 3 vg. Needless to say the customer wasn't happy. I worked out another deal with the customer that made him somewhat comfortable. But this guy was a reporter and wanted to do a story on ASA and Alan H. Not sure if he ever did. I know that I told him I did not want to be a part of that story.

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Posted By: George Dreher

Hello Barry and Aaron. My ASA and CSA experience was much better. In 1996, I purchased the entire ASA and CSA graded collection at the estate sale of a Kentucky collector who had passed away. There were over 900 slabs!
It took quite some time to bust them all open and send them to PSA. None were deemed trimmed by PSA. Not one!
Nearly all of the PQ grades......7PQ, 8PQ, 9PQ were graded as equivalent....PSA 7, 8, 9
However, the straight grades were dropped one grade consistently...ASA 7 = PSA 6.....etc.
Best wishes......George

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Posted By: aro13

If you submitted cards to Hager I thought his grading was pretty good. He certainly could detect alterations. I gave him a couple of cards that turned out to be professionally restored. He not only showed me where the restoration took place but who likely performed the task.

The problem, as has been mentioned, is that he graded his own cards. Those cards in ASA holders that he owned and graded are worthless due to trimming, altering and if you are lucky only severe overgrading.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The interesting thing with ASA and PRO is, that while their cards are often overgraded and trimmed, the two
companies are decent at slabbing authentic cards. For example, if you buy a PRO graded T206, there's an
excellent chance the card is trimmed, but there's also an excellent chance it's authentic ... Of course, the
major complaints against PRO is that a seller buys a card graded Mint but it is trimmed-- thus it's value
is a fraction of what the buyer expected.

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Posted By: cn

I remember when Alan Hager started ASA since there was some excitement among a few collectors in the hobby. The reviews were mixed since he graded his own cards. The thing I find Ironic is that the person who I regard as the biggest a-hole in the hobby Alan Rosen advertised for at least 7 years that he would not have anything to do with graded cards yet now that seems that is the majority of his business. About 2 years ago I asked him this question politely and he snapped saying that Graded cards are where the money is. I should have known with this slimeball.