Who do you think deserves to be in the HOF!!

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Posted By: Neal

Hodges, Santo head Veterans Committee ballot

September 28, 2006

COOPERSTOWN, N.Y. (AP) -- Gil Hodges, Ron Santo, Tony Oliva and Jim Kaat are among the 27 players on next year's Veterans Committee ballot for the Hall of Fame announced Thursday.

Umpire Doug Harvey, former Dodgers owner Walter O'Malley and former union head Marvin Miller are among 15 managers, executives and umpires on the 15-man "composite" ballot.


No one received the required 75 percent in the first two votes by the new Veterans Committee, in 2003 and 2005. In the last vote, Hodges and Santo received 65 percent, falling eight votes shy.

Oliva and Jim Kaat were the only other players to be picked on more than half of the ballots.

In the composite vote, held every four years, Harvey received 48 votes in 2003, falling 12 short. O'Malley was next with 38 and Miller had 35.

The 84 eligible voters on the Veterans Committee include 61 living Hall of Famers, 14 members of the broadcast wing, eight members of the writers wing and one holdover from the previous Veterans Committee. Voting results will be announced Feb. 27.

Four players were added to the ballot: Lefty O'Doul, Al Oliver, Cecil Travis and Mickey Vernon. Two were dropped: Elston Howard and Smoky Joe Wood.

Holdovers also include Dick Allen, Bobby Bonds, Ken Boyer, Rocky Colavito, Wes Ferrell, Curt Flood, Joe Gordon, Mickey Lolich, Sparky Lyle, Roger Maris, Marty Marion, Carl Mays, Minnie Minoso, Thurman Munson, Don Newcombe, Vada Pinson, Luis Tiant, Joe Torre and Maury Wills.

The composite ballot remained the same. It also includes Buzzie Bavasi, August Busch Jr., Harry Dalton, Charles O. Finley, Whitey Herzog, Bowie Kuhn, Billy Martin, Gabe Paul, Paul Richards, Bill White, Dick Williams and Phil Wrigley.


My vote is for Roger "Doc" Cramer life time batting average of .296 including 2,705 hits and played in over 2,239 games!!!!! COME ON VETERANS COMMITEE!!!!

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Posted By: Mike

Where is this Cooperstown? I've heard of Copperstown.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

If you look at the HOF inductees like alcohol then Babe Ruth would be 100 proof (I know the scale goes to 200 proof but 100 sounds like a nice round number) then players like the recently elected Sutter (good but not great) would be like a high alcohol content beer.

It amazes me that the HOF (writers, buddies, etc) continue to water down the enshrinement list by inducting star players that may have been good but in comparison to Ruth, Gehrig, Cobb, Wagner, Matty, W. Johnson, etc.

I can hear the arguements already... different eras and different circumstances. Well, the fact remains that a lot of players really don't deserve to be in the hall.

I guess an arguement can be made for Santo. He was good defensively and he did put up some good (not great) HR numbers but when you compare him to other players already enshrined, there's a little tarnish and shine there. Again, Santo was a star in his day and if you consider the already watered down list of HOF enshrinees then I suppose Santo belongs because he was probably (arguably) one of the best third basemen in his era.

Ok, someone beat me up now...

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Posted By: Greg

All right, here we go:

If you believe that the Hall of Fame has loosened its standards too much over the years, and only sure-fire first ballot types belong in, then none of these candidates is worthy.
If you believe that people meeting and exceeding the defacto standards in place for Hall of Famers should be elected, then there are a number of worthy players.(and please don't think by that I mean that anyone better than the worst Hall of Famers deserves to be in -- I'm talking about people who would fall in the middle of the group of Hall of Famers at their position).

Hodges, Santo and Oliva all deserve to be in - that's easy. Kaat is borderline. Cecil Travis is one of the most overlooked great hitters in baseball history, and he has to be given credit for losing what should have been the second half of a great career to WWII. Joe Gordon should also be in (vastly superior to Bobby Doerr), as should Curt Flood, borderline as a great hitter and fielder, but pushed over the line by being a pioneer. Also in -- Minnie Minoso, he lost the first half of his career because of his race, and his numbers from age 28 on, are incredible. Joe Torre should also be elected, but later, as a manager.
I'm not sold on any of the executives, but Billy Martin and Dick Williams should both be in as managers.

I'm sorry to say I disagree on Doc Cramer -- a very good player, but not a Hall of Famer in my opinion. Al Oliver should rank ahead of him -- Al's numbers are better in an era that wasn't as kind to hitters.

Greg

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Posted By: joe

No disrespect to Curt Flood, but it's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Pioneers.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

None of those should get in. The HOF should be for the truly great--the best of the best--not merely the very very good.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Without Flood, ballplayers would still be working winter jobs. If that don't make you famous, what does?

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Posted By: Griffin's

<<No disrespect to Curt Flood, but it's the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Pioneers.>>

Tell that to Cartwright and Bulkeley.

I vote for Charlie O and Marvin Miller. Both changed baseball dramatically. The players on the ballot all had their chance with the writers and didn't make it, and not one has added to their stats since then.
A case could be made for Minoso based on achievments in various leagues, and a special selection of Buck O' Neil wouldn't surprise me.

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Posted By: Rhys

If they are going to induct a truck full of guys who played in Cuban Leagues and wrote a few books on black baseball, why is there only one member of the American Association in the hall of fame?

Stovey, Mullane, Browning. There is absolutely no reasonable justification I have heard that these players should not be in. Stovey was the first professional player in baseball history to use speed and power. Mullane was the most famous pitcher of 1880's and Browning was one of the 10-20 best pure hitters of all time. Even by the highest standards possibly set by the Hall of Fame, these three guys should be in.

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Posted By: Bob

Oliva, Santo, Phillippi, Dahlen and Donlin.

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Posted By: Steve M.

Reulbach and McGuire

McGuire compared to HOF Catchers:
RUNS

Carlton Fisk 1,276
Yogi Berra 1,175
Buck Ewing 1,118
Johnny Bench 1,091
Ted Simmons 1,074
Mickey Cochrane 1,041
Bill Dickey 930
Gabby Hartnett 867
“Deacon” McGuire 770
Rick Ferrell 687
Roger Bresnahan 684
Roy Campanella 627
Ernie Lombardi 601
Ray Schalk 579

HITS

Ted Simmons 2,472
Carlton Fisk 2,356
Yogi Berra 2,150
Johnny Bench 2,048
Bill Dickey 1,969
Gabby Hartnett 1,912
Ernie Lombardi 1,792
“Deacon” McGuire 1,748
Rick Ferrell 1,692
Buck Ewing 1,663
Mickey Cochrane 1,652
Ray Schalk 1,345
Roger Bresnahan 1,251
Roy Campanella 1,161

DOUBLES

Ted Simmons 483
Carlton Fisk 421
Gabby Hartnett 396
Johnny Bench 381
Bill Dickey 343
Mickey Cochrane 333
Rick Ferrell 324
Yogi Berra 321
“Deacon” McGuire 300
Ernie Lombardi 277
Buck Ewing 237
Roger Bresnahan 222
Ray Schalk 199
Roy Companella 178

HOME RUNS

Johnny Bench 389
Carlton Fisk 376
Yogi Berra 358
Ted Simmons 248
Roy Campanella 242
Gabby Hartnett 236
Bill Dickey 202
Ernie Lombardi 190
Mickey Cochrane 119
Buck Ewing 66
“Deacon” McGuire 45
Rick Ferrell 28
Roger Bresnahan 26
Ray Schalk 12



RBI

Yogi Berra 1,430
Ted Simmons 1,389
Carlton Fisk 1,386
Johnny Bench 1,376
Bill Dickey 1,209
Gabby Hartnett 1,179
Ernie Lombardi 990
Buck Ewing 883
Roy Campanella 856
“Deacon” McGuire 840
Mickey Cochrane 832
Rick Ferrell 734
Ray Schalk 596
Roger Bresnahan 531

BATTING AVERAGE
Mickey Cochrane .320
Bill Dickey .313
Ernie Lombardi .306
Buck Ewing .303
Gabby Hartnett .297
Ted Simmons .285
Yogi Berra .285
Rick Ferrell .281
Roger Bresnahan .279
“Deacon” McGuire .278
Roy Campanella .276
Carlton Fisk .269
Johnny Bench .267
Ray Schalk .253



GAMES CAUGHT

Carlton Fisk 2,226
Rick Ferrell 1,806
Gabby Hartnett 1,793
“Deacon” McGuire 1,781
Ted Simmons 1,771
Johnny Bench 1,742
Ray Schalk 1,727
Bill Dickey 1,708
Yogi Berra 1,699
Ernie Lombardi 1,544
Mickey Cochrane 1,451
Roy Campanella 1,183
Roger Bresnahan 974
Buck Ewing 636

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I agree with Rhys. There should be more 19th century players in there. They could have a pioneers of baseball section in there. Add to Rhy's list the following:

Caruthers, Mathews and VanHaltren. There are others that have been shut out because of their AA affiliation. There are a couple that don't meet the 10 year requirement that played well in their short tenures.

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Posted By: Brett

There are so many players in the Hall of Fame that should not be in. Most most of those were voted into the Hall in the past 20 or so years.

Also, big mac, sosa and bonds should NOT be in the Hall. steroid users and losers with corked bats should be banned.

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Posted By: Greg

I don't think he should be in, but Steve's catcher numbers actually make a pretty good argument for Ted Simmons.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

gil hodges...that's about it.

close: smoky joe wood, but did not play long enough, was only dominant for a few years, same with maris.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Rhys,

Who are the "truck full of guys who played in Cuban Leagues and wrote a few books on black baseball" and which ones are you saying shouldn't be in the HOF?

-Ryan

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Posted By: Danny

Dummy Hoy should be in the HOF. He was one of the best player during 19th century. He brings an ART of the game with umpire signals. Now every umpires got their own style. MLB made the league to not wear Jackie Robinson's number but couldnt even honor Dummy Hoy being the first deaf baseball player with amazing stats. No Offense Jackie...

Your thoughts on Dummy Hoy? Does he belong to HOF?

Danny

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Posted By: warshawlaw

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Jack Taylor 2.66 ERA pitcher who completed 185 consecutive starts in the twentieth century.
For comparison, since 2000, the most consecutive completed starts in MLB is 4.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

This is something to consider. MLB was not really integrated until Jackie Robinson played (yes there was Moses). I feel if you're going to include those that didn't play in MLB (Negro Leagues and Cuban Leagues) you might as well allow Sadahra Oh and some minor leaguers that did great at the lower level to be included. The AA players have been discriminated against.

I'm not saying that Negro (and Cuban) League players should not be considered, I'm just saying that if they are being considered then so should others.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

*

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Posted By: Anonymous

I've said this on this forum before, and I'll say it again -- there should be no debate over Andre Dawson, yet he's not in the HOF.

2700+ hits
400+ HRs
1500+ RBIs
.278 AVG -- a little low for the HOF, but not low enough to keep him out
NL Rookie of the Year 1977
NL MVP 1987
8 Gold Gloves
8 time All Star

IMO, there is nobody more qualified who is not in, and he is more qualified than many already in.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

I agree with Rhys' picks., it's really hard to understand how Stovey, The Louisville Slugger and The Apollo Of The Box continue to be overlooked year after year.

If I had my way I'd like the HOF take another look at some of the early players and pioneers of the game from the 1840-70's era. I've heard several arguements made for HOF enshrinement for guys like Dickey Pearce, Duncan Curry and Jim Creighton to name but a few.

I'd also like to see Buck O'neil get in before he passes. His contributions to the game have been enormous and waiting to do it until after he's gone would be a crime.

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Posted By: Rhys

Ryan, I never said the whole truck full should not be in there, but I think 17 people would fill a truck. Some of the inductees this year were very deserving; others were not. Sol White and Effa Manley are two people the Hall of Fame could have lived without. Both are in primarily because they wrote famous books.

My comment was not meant to disrespect played like Jud Wilson and Cristobal Torriente, but more to illustrate the point that if they are going to do something to make it fair to specific leagues who have been excluded from the Hall than do the same thing for the American Association which had ZERO members until Bid McPhee of all people was put in as a token member.

There was more injustice toward members of the AA than the Negro Leagues coming into this last mass election. One guy from a league which dominated for 15 years? How many Negro/Cuban Leaguers have they inducted in the Hall for leagues that lasted about 40-50 Years. All things being equal (which we know its not), if it is more than 4 than that means they were more fairly represented than the AA.

Once again NO DISRESPECT to the deserving Cuban/Black players who are elected, but why is there so much Disrespect toward the American Association?

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Posted By: Mike Pugeda

Agree with Andre Dawson. Offense and defense-a very well rounded player

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Posted By: Cchris

Bert Blyleven! Just check the numbers and one of the nastiest curve balls ever.

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

The question for this thread is about who deserves to be in the HOF (not necessarily who can be enshrined and who cannot).

On a vintage board, no one has named Shoeless Joe Jackson yet? (Banned, yes. Acquitted, yes. Deserves to get in based on playing career, yes.)

One more -- a former league MVP, World Series MVP, Clemente Award winner (good community work), Gold Glove winner, and 17-time all-star who batted over .300 for his career, is 2nd in career doubles, could play multiple positions, wasn't a horrible manager, had a lot of the "intangibles" (see Jeter thread), and happens to be the all-time hits leader -- Pete Rose. Those of us that watched him play (not necessarily manage or conduct himself in interviews or courtrooms or informercials) cannot argue against that part of his career.

Just my two cents.

Mike (18colt)

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

The place claims to be the Hall of Fame.

There are so many folks in there that there are too many for all of them to be famous, or at least so famous that folks actually recognize all of the names. I'd add a few folks, but I'd remove a bunch, like Puckett and Carter... and I'd thin out some of that most recent bunch of inductees.

Who should be in?

Ed Reulbach (he did early players' fraternity stuff that predated Flood, and that is a big reason his career was shortened, owners didn't want him in baseball).

Ted Simmons.

And I'm ok if they elected Flood and Santo. Any voter who votes Santo in after he dies who could have voted for him while alive who didn't... those voters should be buried for a period of time equal to that time span from when Ron passes and his induction. That would teach the knuckleheads to hold off voting folks in while alive.

And Pete should be in there any day he pays admission, just like us. He should never be inducted. Not ever. Anyone who thinks otherwise fails to comprehend the dynamics of gambling and the origins of professional baseball, the reasons for baseball's rules about gambling, and the wisdom of Pete's ban. Lord he was a fierce competitor, what a hitter... but his conduct precludes his enshrinement.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Fred,

Still waiting for a legitimate reason to discount the careers of the many still remaining deserving Negro Leaguers who, like many deserving 19th century players, will never get in. It's easy for people to belittle the careers of the recently elected group of Negro Leaguers, especially it's been suggested that their Cuban League careers were factors in their election.

In fact, there were specific instructions to the voting committee to only consider their American careers. In fact, they were only supposed to consider their official Negro League careers.

Also, you make your opinion about the Negro Leagues pretty clear by comparing it to Japan and the minor leagues as well as other "lesser" leagues. It's crazy how bad black players were before 1947 and how good they immediately became after that. Something in the pigmentation of their skin must have been triggered because prior to Jackie Robinson, the top 5 career home run leaders were all white. And yet now, only one is.

Let's not forget that it's the NATIONAL Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. It's not the WORLD Baseball Hall of Fame, although it really should be. It's also not the MAJOR LEAGUE Hall of Fame. It's the NATIONAL Baseball Hall of Fame. How does Sadaharu Oh fit in? How in the world does Lefty O'Doul not belong?

Rhys, I'm glad you further explained your point as it makes much more sense to me now. Actually, I completely agree with you about Sol White and Effa Manley. White got in largely because of his book, but was a decent player and an important early historian, so to speak, for the Negro Leagues. I wouldn't have voted for him, but it's not as unwarranted as Effa Manley. Personally, I think her election had more to do with someone writing a book ABOUT her than anything she ever did. Is being a woman in addition to having one of the voters write a book about you enough to make it to Cooperstown? Apparently so. But I've yet to hear a good argument for why she's deserving. Even so, I do like the idea of a woman being elected, just because I know how much it will piss some people off. Other than Manley and White, the committee elected all legitimate HOFers. Unfortunately, several legitimate candidates didn't make it.

Well, in order to quit banging my head against a brick wall, and to stick with the original theme of the thread, here's who I'd put in of the ones mentioned in the original post:

FOR SURE:

Left O'Doul
Curt Flood (pioneer)
Gil Hodges (1969 Mets puts him over the top)
Ron Santo
---

ON THE FENCE, PROBABLY YES:

Thurman Munson
Tony Oliva
Billy Martin (manager)
---

ON THE FENCE, PROBABLY NO:

Rocky Colavito
Roger Maris (great all-around baseball skills)
---

ONES I LIKE WHO SIMPLY SHOULD NOT BE IN:

Al Oliver (2,700+ hits, 7-time all-star)
Dick Allen (feared hitter, 7-time all-star)
---

As I mentioned earlier, this list does not include the many Negro Leaguers and 19th Century players who I believe are deserving but will never get in.

Also, while Buck O'Neil is a worthy HOFer (and will get in at some point) there are many Negro Leaguers who are more deserving than him who will never get in.

-Ryan

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Ryan youre the best person to ask probably.You say others are better choices than Buck,but are any of those guys still alive?

One of the best reasons i think to elect O'Neil isnt because hes alive but its his overall contribution to the game, but god forbid he dies before hes elected, then the hall of fame wouldve done a great man a huge injustice

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Posted By: Bob

Buck O'Neill, I didn't mention him because he is a no-brainer, definitely should be in for a multitude of reasons spelled out in prior posts. I forgot to mention Ed Reulbach who along with Phillippi deserve to be in long before Smokey Joe Wood who had one fabulous year as a pitcher and several average to above average years as an outfielder. Blyleven would be my #3 behind those 2 on the mound.
Bad Bill Dahlen and Turkey Mike Donlin deserve to be in but won't be because both were slightly incorrigible. They both, however, were far more pleasant than the Georgia Peach or a few others in the Hall and were stars of their era.
Tony Oliva and Andre Dawson should be in. Great ballplayers, who would have been nobrainers if not for knee injuries but still were sensational in their era and had they played in New York or anywhere but Minnesota or Montreal, would have been in long ago. Oliva was better than Puckett but all that media attention gave Kirby a huge boost that Tony O. and Andre never did.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Ryan,

You are without a doubt a very passionate person when it comes to the Negro League players. Your point regarding "It's crazy how bad black players were before 1947 and how good they immediately became after that" was a very good point and one that I've heard many times in the past. The sad part about this is that the records for the Negro Leagues are so incomplete and the only things left are stories, some probably embellished others probably modest accounts.

I've been somewhat short sighted because I've always looked at the HOF as a major league HOF rather than a National HOF. Wouldn't you say that it's been something that's pretty much been bred into the institution (HOF) until this recent injection of polictical correctness? Look back 30 years, did people even consider a huge influx of Negro League players? This is a recent phenomena. I suppose the "better late than never" cliche applies here.

Rather than begin a debate over "who" should be eligible for election into the Baseball HOF I'll leave it at this. Most people relate the BB HOF with MLB. Obviously, before the recent consideration given to the Negro League players (owners and historians), the baseball writers of America pretty much influenced many generations of us into making that exact correlation between the BB HOF and MLB.

Edited to add - by the way, your post was very good and well taken.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Curt Flood and Marvin Miller as a pioneers
Ron Santo, Charlie O

I agree that Mnullane, Browning and Stovey need to be inducted. I had 3 Stovey OJs at one time hoping he was going to get into the HOF and his card was the first OJ I bought.

Blyleven also belongs. If you have any doubts as to how great he was, just read any of Bill James Historical Abstracts or The Inside Game of Baseball by Palmer and Thorn to see just home dominate he truely was. I love Tony Oliva. He was my favorite player as a kid and agree with Bob, if he had the press/PR behind him that Puckett had or played in NY or LA , he would also be in the HOF.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Dave Rey

Fred --

I'm interested in what is so "politically correct" about an long-overdue recognition of many players that were the equals (or even better) of their white major league counterparts that were already enshrined.

The Hall of Fame had to be shamed by that paragon of political correctness, Ted Williams, into finally getting around to extending invitations to players such as Paige, Gibson and Lloyd -- who may be the best three players to have ever played their positions (regardless of skin color) -- starting in 1971.

Baseball, as an institution, was so different pre-1947 that there probably should be a revival of recognition that nineteenth century baseball, the Negro Leagues and the minor leagues were every bit as important or relevant to the health and success of baseball in America as the modern major leagues.

I would love to see the same serious effort that recently went into identifying deserving Negro Leagues players go into identifying the most deserving of the nineteeth century players.

I believe there are easily at least a dozen that deserve enshrinement that most serious historians could come to near consensus on.

As for the list of "modern" (post-1947) players being considered, I think Minnie Minoso is the most deserving -- had he been white and not had to wait for the color line to be dissolved, he would've easily been up near the all-time top in hits and probably runs. As it is, he has good enough HOF qualifications even though he had to wait until he was nearly 30 to play MLB.

I'd also give a nod to Santo, Torre (combined for his play and managing success) and Blyleven -- though that trio are all third-tier (the bottom third) HOFers.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Two more 19th century stars that should get some consideration:

Jim McCormick http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mccorji01.shtml

Gus Weyhing http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/weyhigu01.shtml

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Posted By: rp60

..Ambassadors and pioneers.. I really dont know exactly what qualifies anymore.How about that black guy who is 110. Can longevity qualify? Which President threw out the most opening game balls, perhaps they should go in for that distinction..Should I thank Curt Flood for my 6.75 pint of beer. NOW thats impact..I gotta go to work guys..

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Posted By: dennis

the veterens comittee was a bad idea. if the voting was only done by the sports writers. it would truely only be for the immortal players......check the records of who they voted in and i think all here would agree with 95% of the choices. http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof.shtml it's the vets com. choices that creates the debates over the mattinglys and santos! sadly they are not going to throw anyone out so why not let more in? bert blylevin is better than 1/3 of the pitchers in so why not bert? santo and ken boyer belong if goerge kell is in,don't they? does anyone think kell was better than ken boyer?

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Posted By: Sean

Ed Reulbach, Hal Chase, Joe Jackson, Andre Dawson, Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva and Bert Blyleven (if only for this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNzT5j8CmOo)

Sean BH

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

My hall would include Joe Jackson, Joe Wood, Jim Rice, Gil Hodges, Buck O'Neil.
Never McGuire (or Bonds + Sousa + Giambi); my hall is for people.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Dave,

The political correctness part of this has to do with the fact that it took so long for this to occur. Call it what you want, if you think I took the term out of context then that's your opinion. Call it a correction of an oversight but you have to admit that it sure took a long time for the correction to occur. Perhaps you should re-read my last post. In summary, generations of fans have probably made the same correlation between the BB HOF and MLB because a majority of the enshrinees were part of MLB. The recent mass induction of Negro Leaguers pretty much doubled the Negro League representation to the HOF. I hope nobody thinks that there are any racist connotations to my posts because if anybody feels that way then those people have misinterpreted what's been posted.

The HOF balloting and selection process leaves a lot to be desired. Look at who's in and who's not. The failure to select Buck O'Neil is horrible because he could have been one of the few Negro Leaguers that could have been alive when inducted. This is a shame. Perhaps this error will be corrected.

By the way, do you feel that Minnie Minoso's career was really so negatively impacted by the color barrier? He was younger than Jackie Robinson when he made his MLB debut. He made his MLB debut when he was 23 years old. Two years later he was a full time player and then reeled off almost a dozen years of full time play. He had a fruitful career but I don't think he was as negatively impacted by the color barrier as you believe. If you base his career on the current list of enshrinee accomplishments then he deserves consideration.

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Posted By: jP

Steve Garvey !

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Posted By: Joe D.

William Hoy.

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Posted By: prewarsports

One of the other things that has always bothered me about the Hall of Fame is it's overwhelming desire to do the "right thing" with regard to some groups and no desire to do it to others. The Hall of fame basically this year inducted a whole bunch of guys where there was very little statistical evidence and many of them never really played in the United States. Therefore they take the stance that concrete stats and reputation among peers is the predominant factor (Once again I am NOT discounting their careers, simply using it to point out the simple fact that heresay and reputation got most of these guys inducted as there was little or no statistical evidence for their inductions). Why not then induct some of the games greatest pioneers who were simply not fortunate enough to play during a time of concrete stats as well, which is the pre-professional days of the 1860's-70's. Using the same argument as "Isnt it funny how black players suddenly got so good in 1947" you can use the same argument to say "Isnt it funny that George Wright was so good and the rest of the mid-19th century guys sucked".

It is really weird that is a Hall of Fame that is OBSESSED TO A FAULT with "pioneers" and "ground-breakers" that only one pre-professional player is enshrined in the hall? There should honestly be about 10-15 of these guys in the hall of fame. Asa Brainard, Jack Chapman, Jim Creighton, Lipman Pike, etc etc etc. I think that the Hall of Fame has dug itself into a hole that it will never be able to free itself from and their unreasonable lack of representation of the games truest pioneers and the American Association is the biggest travesty in their history.

Rhys

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Posted By: Jason

Dawson, yes, for all the previously stated reasons, plus a classy guy
Santo, yes, regardless of what Mike Schmidt thinks
Pete Rose, yes, even though he is my most-disliked baseball personality
Shoeless Joe, yes, I loved him in Field of Dreams
Me, for several consucutive years of outstanding play in various little leagues

Also, pretty cool how this topic has drawn out a lot of folks I haven't seen post before (or in awhile)

Jason

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Posted By: Dan Lundrigan

To me these men ALL deserve to be in the hall Lefty O`Doul,Gil Hodges,Buck O`Neil and Jim Rice!

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

Is there a book available that lists PCL players and their stats say, prior to 1958? The reason I ask is I wonder what players (such as Lefty O'Doul) elected to stay in the PCL, and possibly turned down playing in the majors due to the fact that no major league teams existed west of the Mississippi; and also being that the PCL was considered a "Third Major League" by many in earlier years.


Steve

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I'm afraid to make a comment that may seem negative about Lefty O'Doul. I'll fear for my life and keep looking behind my back for the dagger that will await me...

Lefty started out as a pitcher and made his ML debut when he was 22. Guess what, he wasn't that good at pitching. He was about 26 when he finally gave up trying to be a big league pitcher. He then changed over to playing the outfield and made his return to the ML at the age of 31. He didn't do too badly, he played a good part of the season and he swung the lumber well. The following year (when he was 32) he found a full time position for four years (on two different teams, oddly enough). In those four years he won 2 batting titles while hitting about .373 during that span. He acheived the 200 hit plateau 3 times with a high of 254 hits in 1929 (one of his batting title years - .398). He played 2 more ML seasons after that 4 year stretch. All total he was in the ML for 11 seasons but he only played in 4 full seasons (but what great seasons they were). He left the ML at the age of 37 after only 3,264 at bats. This is the biggest knock on Lefty's ML career. He was stellar for 4 seasons and that was it. Yes, he meets the 10 year requirement but he basically only had 4 full seasons of incredible stats (actually 3 really great years, the other was still pretty good). He also had two seasons with about with about 350 to 390 at bats but he only batted over .300 in one of those seasons.

That .349 lifetime batting average usually raises a few eyebrows but I think if he could have dominated for 2 to 3 more years he probably would be enshrined already.

He was a very dominant 4 year player and that's probably why the writers haven't elected him (yet).

Now, those of you Lefty lovers/supporters, please don't kill me...


edited to add a link (if possible)

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Steve,

By the way, PCL ball was great ball. A lot of great players were in that league. Joe DiMaggio had a longer hitting streak in the PCL than he did during that magical 1941 season with the Yankees. They had some long seasons in the PCL. I'm sure someone will be able to suggest a great book on the PCLs golden years.

Do PCL players deserve to be in the HOF based on their PCL playing records? Any comments or opinions on that topic?

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Posted By: Paul

I've never quite understood how Rocky Colavito was treated by the writers. He put up very good numbers, though in my opinion not quite enough to be a hall of famer. But he had fantastic press during his career. I think it is fair to say that he was one of the most beloved players of his era. I don't think those factors SHOULD be a plus, but I certainly think they ordinarily WOULD be a plus. Also, I think his popularity and positive press emphasize the fact that he was a genuine star during his time, not a statistical anomoly who only looks good on paper in retrospect.

So, how close do you think he came to getting into the Hall? How about "not as close as George Case". Colavito got a grand total of three votes over the course of his eligibility. Three. That rounds off to zero percent. Here's the official page from the HOF:

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/history/hof_voting/alpha/C.htm


I'm not lobbying for Colavito or against him. But I think the guy deserved more than three votes. At the same time, it's amazing that some one with only three votes made it onto the veterans' ballot.

Edited to add: Other surprising vote totals -- Frank Howard and Norm Cash, 6 votes each. I've always liked Gil Hodges and thought he should make it, but was he THAT much better than Colavito, Howard and Cash?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

The HOF has no merit in my eyes. At one time it did, but my judgement at that time was faulty.My current thinking is that the HOF never had any merit.

For example, 16% of the BW voted against Walter Johnson's induction, while only 1% disagreed with Seaver's selection.
Ok, one chink in their armor.
18% against Speaker, 19% against Pete Alexander, 22% against Hornsby, 24% against Keeler. Yet 4% against Bench and only eight percent against Brooks Robinson.

I stop, only because you have heard enough. There are countless examples of the baseball writers preferring second tier players over those who represent baseball's highest performance percentile.

And the inequities are throughout their history and their range of responsibilities.

I do not collect HOFer cards. I collect cards of players who have achieved specifically identifiable performance milestones.

Phooey on the Hall.