Looking for information about e98 "Old Put" cards

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

I have read most of the previous e98 "Old Put" posts, and it seems like there is not much information known about this overprint. I am hoping that that has changed. Does anyone know...
What year was the stamp was applied?
Was it only applied to the e98's?
Who applied it?
How was it distributed?
Where was is distributed?
Why was the stamp applied to mainly red backgrounds?
How many are known to exist and who are the players?

Any information would be helpful. Thank you in advance for posting.

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Posted By: Bob

Dan- The whole Old Put thing is quite the mystery. All I can chime in with is that to my knowledge, every card in the E98 set had at least one card owned by someone with an Old Put back except Walsh and Kling, I've never seen an Old Put Walsh or Kling. The most I ever saw of an individual player was Clarke- I owned one (until UPS lost it), Leon had one and there was one other out there. I believe there are 2 Cobbs. Caveat- There may be some guy in Cedar Rapids, Iowa who has never heard of the Net 54 Board or ebay or the National who has a whole set.
The only two I have ever seen which were on a different color background were Leon's blue Clarke and I believe one of the two Cobbs' is on a blue one (not positive). That's it, the rest are all on the same color. Dan that's just my 2 cents based on my own contacts and observations. I used to keep up closely with them but after UPS lost my card coming back from grading, I didn't have the heart for it anymore...
tbob

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Bob- I have never heard of a blue Cobb. Have you seen one? I know there was another OP that was blue, but I thought it was a common. Anyone wish to share a scan of any OP?

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Posted By: leon

Old Puts have been around for a long time in the hobby. Not much is really known about them except they sort of made a caramel card into a tobacco card. I used to say I had never seen another blue background Old Put but not too long ago I did see 1-2 more. The ones with the red backgrounds are far more common, although common is probably not a good word to use since all of them are quite scarce. All of the overprints are in the period purple ink..For some reason mostly HOF'ers are seen too but I don't think there's much reasoning behind that...regards

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

The Bresnahan stamp looks black. Is it just the scan? What typ of premium does the stamp carry? The big book has them at approximately 2 times a standard e98, although the book is not as accurate as it once was. Any information at all is helpful. Thanks

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Posted By: peter ullman

i don't own any...wish I did...I'd guess old put would multiply 8-10X.

pete ullman

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Posted By: leon

These come up so rarely it's hard to say exactly what they sell for. I think Pete is pretty close....although I paid about double for the blue background one as you almost never see them....The black looking overprint is indeed purple....

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Posted By: Richard

I don't own any either, but have seen a couple of them sell.

I think that a tiered multiplier applies just as in all rare backs:

commons and minor stars: 5-7x
HOFers: 3-4x

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Found an "old Baseball" link. Unfortunately there is little info...

"More properly classified as an E-98 with an Old Put overprint on the back, I've listed it here, rather than with the E cards, for no good reason at all. Well, that's not true. It's very possible they were inserted into packs of Old Put Cigars and that would make it a legitimate tobacco issue. Can't really say how difficult they are. I don't think they are truly scarce, but interest is not all that great so finding them might be the real challenge. The date is based on E-98's issuance, which, as you can see in the checklist, I've been real accurate with (Hey, there's a reason these cards are un-cataloged--nobody knows nothing' about them!)."

Very interesting history on cards at:

http://www.oldbaseball.com/refs/tcards.html

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Posted By: robert a

The main two aspects of what makes "Old Puts" significant to me is that the stamp has been placed on an otherwise ANONYMOUS issue and that the stamp has NEVER BEEN FOUND ON ANOTHER ISSUE. The only other stamp that I know of that is only found on one issue is the Swift stamp.

Were they stamped at the factory?

Were they stamped by a retailer?

We may never know. I guess if we could find out when Old Put cigars were in full force, we could at least confirm the POSSIBILITY that Old Put is the issuer.

All of the red background Old Puts (I've personally only seen one blue background which is posted in this thread) have been stamped facing the same way. Perhaps the retailer had a stack of red and a stack of blue and went through with the stamper. Some Old Puts are lighter than others which tells me that they weren't put on at any factory, although it remains a possibility.

I think that there was probably some promotion that when you bought a cigar at the shop, the retailer gave you a stamped baseball card to go with it.

Why are there more hofers around? Because people held onto the popular players longer than the semi-popular players AND because the customer might've requested a certain player when he bought his cigar.

I don't know how many exist, but would guess that some players don't exist at all and other players may only have one example floating around.

It would be very interesting to me to one day try to document all of the players found with an Old Put back, but I imagine there are a few in private collections. If anyone has another blue backed Old Put, I'd love to hear about it.

Anyways, it's fun to theorize on these.

Rob

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Posted By: barrysloate

As Leon alluded it is likely the only occurrence where a card issued to sell a candy product was overstamped with an ad for a tobacco product. Since it's realistic that a well stocked store might sell both candy and tobacco, maybe the stamp was relegated to a single merchant in a large emporium at a particular location. How many stores could simultaneously come up with the idea of overprinting a candy card with a cigar ad?

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Posted By: Richard

If the e98 issue is anonymous, what makes it a candy issue?

I thought that most of these issues were printed up and made available with specific fronts, but generic backs. They were then marketed to companies for their specific use.

For example, the printers of M101-5 printed a bunch of blank backed sets, marketed the sets to different companies and either sold the sets to these companies so they could put their own logos or print on the back, or the original printing company could do it for them.

E92s were all made by the same printer, but were distributed by a handful of companies who wanted to print up their logos on the back: Dockman gum, Nadja caramel, and Croft & Allen.

E98s could have been printed up and sold to a variety of companies and stores for various modes of distribution. In candy packages, handed out with cigars, potato chips, coffee, etc.

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Posted By: robert a

Barry,

How do you know the card was issued to sell a candy product?

We could look at this like T216 which was issued to sell a tobacco product, but looks more like a candy type.

Rob

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Posted By: barrysloate

Both points are well taken. I guess because E98 has a candy card looking front and an "E" designation, I am just automatically calling it a candy card. But you are both right. However, it is so close in appearance to Standard Caramel and Briggs that it is just a knee jerk reaction. But truth be told, it is anonymous.

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Posted By: barrysloate

And likewise E94 and E102. They have all the characteristics of other candy cards and are designated "E" cards. But why do we assume they were issued with candy?

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Posted By: Richard

Barry -

You can add e101 and e104 blank backs into the mix as well. As for e94s, at least we know one method of distribution - perhaps not the only method.

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Posted By: barrysloate

We can assume that e94's are candy cards partly because every known overprint advertises a candy product- but who knows, maybe E94's were issued with cigars and overprinted by a candy seller. I think every anonymous card was issued with the idea that a merchant would place his own ad on the back, but who printed and distributed them? 19th century trade cards were like that- you could find them with myriad ads overstamped by merchants from every trade.

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Posted By: robert a

The E93/E94/E97/E98/W555/M131 style must've been presented to different small companies throughout the region who chose from a pool of players. Anonymous cards might've been left over for a representative to take to small shops or companies like George Close Candies.

All the E94 Overprints make reference to Close Candy except Blomes.

Blomes seems to be the most common overprint and it could've been issued separately from the others. Do we know that Blomes Chocolates were a Close product?

The standard E94s are anonymous, not George Close.

Rob

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Posted By: Richard Wong

Robert -

Good point. Leon has a Blome Chocolate bag on his website and it has Baltimore printed on it. The George Close Candy Company was located in Cambridge, Mass. Different companies, different locations it appears.

Maybe Blome's and Close's products sold in the same store with the store owner stamping the generic cards with stampers provided by the companies to advertise their products?

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Posted By: robert a

Richard,

Thanks for pointing out Leon's Blomes wrapper.

That just about cements it for me that Blomes was not a Close candy.

Rob

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Posted By: leon

We now know where Nadja's came from....no mystery anymore...and my best guess is this is where the Blomes came from....still lot's of questions to be answered. Maybe in time.

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Posted By: barrysloate

E94 Blome's chocolates are from Baltimore, and M131 backs are also from Baltimore. Connection or coincidence?

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Posted By: Bob

"I don't think they (Old Puts) are truly scarce, but interest is not all that great so finding them might be the real challenge."

Not scarce??? There are probably more T206 Honus Wagners than Old Puts which have surfaced. I'd say that is scarce...

BTW, I made a comment about a blue Cobb Old Put, my bad, I was confusing this with an E94 back overprinted blue Cobb I had seen. leon's remains the only blue Old Put I have ever heard of and must be treated as an aberration.

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Posted By: leon

I have seen 2 (I believe) other Old Puts with blue backgrounds. I have the scans at home but will have to dig through hundreds of emails to find them. I saw them though....it wasn't someone saying they saw one that told me...I have the scans somewhere....As a matter of fact if I am not mistaking it's one of the guys that works for Levi Bleam (707sportscards) that has them...I am almost positive it was 2...and I think his name is Jim...and no, he won't sell or trade them . I asked for scans as I couldn't believe it, myself....And the one blue one I have I got in one of Barry's auctions. We were both surprised I had to pay so much.... regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

I actually auctioned the blue Old Put that Leon got and I remember that my consignor had it just lying in a pile of miscellaneous cards. His main interest was 19th century and he didn't even know what the "Old Put" was. He handed it to me as if I was doing him a favor by taking it. Neither of us realized how rare it was. But Leon knew, that's for sure. And that's why he's the moderator dude.

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Posted By: robert a

Theories and more theories:


It's possible that smaller companies/retailers on the east coast (blomes, close, baltimore news) were allowed to pick which color background they wanted for their product(s).

Baltimore News picked blue, Old Put used red, etc.

This could also explain why certain colors within E94 seem to be scarcer than others. Perhaps those products weren't as popular.

The one and only "e94" overprint that I have is a Turqoise Kleinow with a Blomes Back. I've seen another Turquoise Kleinow with a Blomes Back.

These are so scarce that it's pretty much impossible to do a study of what color backgrounds are found with what overprints, but it would be interesting to see if there are any patterns there.

Rob

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Posted By: JimB

I don't know the exact number off hand, but many of the E98 poses are identical to the E93 Standard Caramels. I think this is why it was assumed they were candy cards and given the E designation. It may not be accurate. I think it is impossible to tell for sure. How do we weight conflicting evidence: On the one hand they look A LOT like the other candy issues of the period. On the other hand the only explicit indication is the Old Put overprint which would suggest they are a T issue. It gets complicated because Old Put overprints probably represent less than 1% of known E98s and they clearly the exception rather than the rule.
JimB

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Posted By: barrysloate

In the end all baseball cards were issued for commercial purposes. If there was no money to be made by issuing a card, the card wouldn't exist. Therefore, product advertising trumps everything else- be it front design, players in the set, etc. A century later the checklists and players are most important to collectors. At the time of issue selling a product was the only reason the cards existed. We perceive them differently today than others did then.

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Posted By: barrysloate

To Jim B.- I've been meaning to share a story with you that is completely off topic but I know you will appreciate it and I hope the others won't mind. My wife and I own a home in eastern Long Island in a town called Noyac. Henry Chadwick used to summer there in the late 1800's. We live across from the water and down the street from us a house is being currently built by a woman who has owned the waterfront property for a number of years. That woman is Sue Graham Mingus, the widow of Charles. I only came to realize recently that the wife of one of Jazz's great geniuses and eternal lights will be living a few doors down from us. I have heard she is a bit reclusive and not very accessible, and I am sure managing the Mingus Orchestra keeps her busy travelling, but I hope one day to meet her and tell how much I admired her late husband. She wrote a moving book called "Tonight at Noon" about his life and tragic death from Lou Gehrig's disease. Sorry to get so off topic, but I know Jim would appreciate the story.

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Why would a store or a factory develop a stamp, and stamp it on 20 cards? It doesn't make sense. They would stamp every card including other issues. Does anyone know when the first sighting of an OP stamp was? Is it possible that sometime in the 50's the stamp was applied? Maybe a guy, for some strange reason, who had a handful of e98's and an old stamper defaced his cards. I would think if it were being done by a company or business there would be more examples around.

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Posted By: JimB

Barry,
That is great! I hope you get a chance to talk with her a bit. Mingus is one of my all-time favorites! I can listen to Mingus 5 or any number of his albums for hours on end. Maybe it is better to take this conversation off this discussion since it isn't old cardboard related.
JimB

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Posted By: leon

It is possible the stamps were done years after the cards were made but the rest of your thoughts don't make sense vis a vis what we know today. Also, I got one of my OP's from an original collection that was collected many, many years ago (I believe in the 50's-60's). Look at all of the rare cards out there and a lot of them wouldn't make financial sense. Cullivans T208's, T231's, E222's, E221's etc.. etc.. and as for overprints there really aren't a whole lot of the E94's floating around either, and they are only known on that series of card.....

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Yep, that makes sense. I guess if you think about the scarcity of other issues, it falls in line. It is possible that thousands of cards have been stamped, and many have been lost or disgarded. Good to know that they existed in the 50's. Thanks

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- email me at bsloate@att.net if you would like. Regards, Barry

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Posted By: jay behrens

Overprint stamps still the scare the bejeebez out of me becuase it seems so easy to fake. The Old Put seems especially easy since it's a very simple font that needs to be reproduced.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Theoretically you could make a Toy Town stamp, OP stamp, or even a new stamp that is meant to look old. If you are going to try and duplicate a stamp, it is just as easy for a professional to create any of the stamps. Do the grading companies have a way to check the color or ink used to verify that the stamp is old? Do they have a way to verify ink when they authenticate autographs?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Since you are probably spending around $25 to get an Old Put card graded, I'm not sure that would cover the costs of testing the ink. Of all the many things in the hobby that could be faked, the Old Put stamps would clearly be among the easiest. While the E94 overprints were done professionally, the OP's look like someone was too cheap to farm them out to a printer and just bought a stamp and ink pad and did them himself.

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Posted By: Richard

Obviously, there would be more incentive to create a modern reproduction of some stamps than others. Creating a Toy Town stamp would be pointless since there is marginal premium for these overprints.

There would be significant incentive to recreate the Old Put and Niagara Baking. E94s would also create a huge premium, and it would probably be easier than one would think for a professional to create one from a sample.

As a side note, I have been looking for a Toy Town stamper for the last 2 years and have come close, but no cigar.

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Posted By: robert a

I would guess that up to this point, no one has created a fake Old Put stamp and properly stamped only a few red e98s, but sure it's possible.

Let's not give anyone new ideas.

There are plenty of stamps that could be easily recreated including the Sporting Life W600 stamp and the E107 Breisch Williams stamp.

Richard,

I've looked for that darn Toy Town stamper for a very long time and they don't exist. Let me know if you find a stamper or the game.

Rob