Something to think about in regards to a cards condition

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris

Here is something to think about. Seems like we as collectors seem to accept a grade overgrade for raw cards we buy from dealers yet when we get a graded card that doesn't look like a particular grade we seem to scream bloody murder. We more or less accept subjectivity with dealers grades but we expect grading companies to be perfect. I have never understood all the grading company bashing as far as the main guys go. I personally have seen inconsistencies with all of them. Overall though I think they do a pretty good job. It would be nice if more internet sellers would describe the condition in detail instead of just relying on the slab grade. I think it would actually give more stability to the vintage market. All PSA 5's or SGC 60's are not created equal. I guess I am kind of rambling with some random thoughts. I personally don't mind paying a little more for a PSA 4 or SGC 50 if the eye appeal looks a grade higher. Julie has the righ idea of breaking cards out if you never intend to sell them. Buy the card, not the slab.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

It hink you will find that most people on this forum use the slab grade as a guideline, but generally buy slabbed cards for the card and not for the slab. If you go to the CU board, you will find a lot people that buy the slab, they could care less what is actually inside it. As long as the slab is 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 9, they could care less if it's beat up and dog eared. They just care that slab says it's PSA9

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

I think the reason most of us are less critical with subjective grades with dealers is simple. We have all been collecting for many years and over those years have gotten to know certain dealers concept of grading like it or not. I think Leon posted a thread about Fritsch. The reason we are less forgiving when it comes to grading companies is a few reasons.

1.)Dealers don’t charge us to grade their cards. They assign a grade for free.
2.)Most dealers don’t claim to be the end all word when it comes to quality and cards. Most will hear the buyer out and work out a price based on the 2 opinions involved with the card that is being offered for sale.
3.)When you claim to be the expert that’s a big thing and people expect some consistency, after all that’s the whole reason these companies were invented in the first place or at least they claim it to be. To help us not have to rely on accepting subjectivity with dealers grades.
4.)If we still should use our eyes and subjectivity then why assign grades at all. Even further why pay someone to look at your cards. Hell we used subjectivity before it cost $12 a card to get them looked at. If we need to use subjectivity what the hell are we paying these guys for and what are they brining to the table. One of their business models is listed below and subjectivity doesn’t seem to be a part of it, other than using it to their advantage in a negative light against non graded cards.

“We’re the Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA) -- the world’s largest third-party authentication service. No more guesswork or taking the word of one dealer over another. Now you can have your sports cards graded by an unbiased group of the hobby’s most experienced sports card grading experts -- and at the same time be assured that the only interest they have in your cards is to make sure they’re properly graded and carefully preserved. PSA’s permanent grading standard is recognized industry-wide as the best possible form of consumer protection. So when you see a card for sale in a holder displaying the PSA logo, you’ll know you can buy with the confidence that the card has been properly and professionally graded. If you want to verify the grade of a card before you sell, have it graded by PSA and realize its full value without leaving any money on the table.”

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris

John, I basically agree with what you are saying except I am of the opinion that dealers do charge us for grading. They are making money on giving a card a specific grade. Some of these dealers sell a ton of cards and make a ton of money and many of them are experts in their own right. ALL and I do mean ALL dealers are capable of assigning the correct grade with at least the same consistency as grading companies yet they don't. That is why I personally do feel grading companies are good for the hobby. Especially for internet sales. Plus to reitterate my point, We seem to expect alot more from PSA for grading our cards than what a dealer grades it. PSA assigns a grade just as any dealer assigns a grade. I guess I just find it odd how people will bash grading companies and claim they are helpinng certain dealers out(and that may be the case) but when a dealer sells a raw card of their own and overgrades it there is a lot less if any bashing and they are doing the exact same thing. They are helping themselves out by making more $. I can't tell you how many times I have seen someone give a card a specific grade and even though they have a clear scan and it is obvious it is well below that grade it sells for more than it should. Kind of the same theory as the people who do buy the slab and not the card. They are buying this dealers grade and not the card.

[Archive]

Posted By: Chris

to add this, I think all the big three grading companies are way more consistent than your average dealer and therefore I think they do serve a purpose. John, just as you say we let dealers slide because we have been dealing with the same dealers for years and know what to expect, why don't we do the same with the grading companies we have been dealing with for years?

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

it's harder to see the flaws in cards once they are trapped in plastic.if you break them out, you find the imperfections.this applies to any holder and sheets too.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott

that is why some cards end up in plastic?

[Archive]

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I agree with Chris and others. Slabbing is of value now, and as the definition of grading becomes more refined, it could allow for simpler trading.

Specifically, if a card's grade accurately represented its condition, sight unseen trading could be feasible. That is: a PSA 8.45 Mantle, if adequately and accurately defined, could be exchanged as a commodity.

Following this path, it is comprehensible to purchase "Mantle Futures", "Options" and other forms of baseball card gambling.

I do not think that grading companies can ever get their act together sufficiently to accomplish this, so for now, I consider the possibility of sight unseen trading of baseball cards less likely than many other science fiction possibilities.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

you can already do the commodities/futures thing with eTopps.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh K.

Actually, you can also do the graded cards as stocks thing on www.thepit.com

They consider every graded card to be the equivilent of every other card with the same grade.

[Archive]

Posted By: Cy

I need to ask a question here. Many people bash the grading companies whenever one card is mis-graded. Several cards may be sent at the same time and only one seems under-graded and
this becomes an outrage. My question is, why is this outrage never spoken against the major auction houses? If one of the major auction houses places a group of cards on their auction and list overall grade Ex, how many people in here feel that this grade will very close to accurate if these cards are sent to SGC? If the grading is not close, why is there no outrage? Why do members of the board accept a grade to a grade and one half less on these cards, but are appalled when SGC or PSA does the same thing?

Sincerely,

Cy

[Archive]

Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Yeah, but the vig is too high. When someone will offer a reasonable buy/sell spread and allow me to buy on margin, then we have a reasonable grading system and a viable market.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

You probably see a lack of outrage towards dealer and auctions houses becuase many collectors have a decent grasp their grading standards. Fritsch may overgrade his cards 2-3 grades, but he is consistant and you take into account when you consider his cards. Same goes for everyone else. With grading companpies, they try pass themselves off as infalible and your are paying to have the cards graded, thus there is less tolerance for mistakes. Fritsch, et al can say their cards grade whatever they like, but when it comes to a 3rd party grading your cards, you want them to be on the money.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott

but subjectivity of grades by SGC, PSA, GAI IS NOT my gripe.

My gripe is over their inability to "sufficiently" recognize alterations (or to apply the methods available to do so), and over collectors' willingness to blindly accept that any holdered card is 'safe'.

As Jay pointed out, we know in advance that certain dealers selectively disclose back damage, others ignore alterations or trimming, etc. - while it's still inexcusable, I should only purchase from them if I have the balls to send back screw-ups I find unacceptable. I think we've heard that all the dealers have favorable return policies.

I argue that paying for a slab is paying for expertise. Others argue that we are also paying the dealers for their grading expertise - wrong. The difference is that dealers use their own grading to stretch their profit, while slabbers are supposedly attempting to apply a uniform standard so that we're all "talking the same language".