Wally Backman -- Kicking it old school

[bk400]

So a colleague in his mid-20s assertively told me that I was creating undue pressure outside of work hours by sending him work emails over the weekend.

Sigh. This is what happens to when you swap out pull ups for hula hoops in PE class.

Wally Backman giving a motivational locker room speech:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlsVr1ykBqQ

Wally Backman had his share of issues, but sometimes you need Wally Backman.

[packs]

I’m with your colleague. Office hours are office hours. Send an email during them. We all get two days a week to ourselves and that time is for living your real life.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by packs

I’m with your colleague. Office hours are office hours. Send an email during them. We all get two days a week to ourselves and that time is for living your real life.

I agree. I'm not sure what PE class has to with it.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I agree. I'm not sure what PE class has to with it.

That’s for the modern day bootstrappers and the grind it outers.

I used to do sets of pull-ups on a regular basis before my elbows stopped cooperating with me, but that don’t mean you can ask me to work for free on my days off.

Now if you have a job where you’re being paid to be on call…that’s different rules.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by bk400

So a colleague in his mid-20s assertively told me that I was creating undue pressure outside of work hours by sending him work emails over the weekend.

Sigh. This is what happens to when you swap out pull ups for hula hoops in PE class.

Wally Backman giving a motivational locker room speech:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlsVr1ykBqQ

Wally Backman had his share of issues, but sometimes you need Wally Backman.

After watching the video, I will say that when I played ball growing up, I hated, hated, hated…when the coach didn’t let us sneak in a batting practice before games.

Couldn’t imagine a ballplayer voluntarily not taking BP if they got a chance to gear up before a game.

[D. Bergin]

For some reason this card immediately pops in my head.

[bk400]

I didn't ask the guy to respond over the weekend (although that's what I would've done at his age and at that stage of my career). I just sent him the email over the weekend. How mentally weak do you have to be to find that receiving an email over the weekend creates undue work pressure?

I guess I'm just a dinosaur. Got my call with HR on Monday. The guy copied in HR, a nice woman my age who, apparently, not only reads emails over the weekend, but also responds.

[packs]

There are 40 hours a week for you to communicate with your colleague. France passed a right to disconnect law not too long ago. Businesses there can rack up fines for not respecting out of office hours. People’s priorities are shifting to life ahead of work and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I have a family. The most important things I do will happen outside the office and I have a limited enough time to do them as it is.

[bk400]

All fair points. But then we should be able to promote more quickly those who take the initiative to go above and beyond the bare minimum of, ahem, French labor law.

It's like professional baseball -- the best get promoted to the big leagues, not the best per 40 (or 35, in the case of France) hours worked.

[tiger8mush]

My work email address is different from my person email address. So send as many work emails to me you want over the weekend, I'll check 'em Monday morning

p.s. hilarious rant from Wally lol

[bk400]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

My work email address is different from my person email address. So send as many work emails to me you want over the weekend, I'll check 'em Monday morning

p.s. hilarious rant from Wally lol

And that would be perfectly fine. And you'd get bonus points for not whining to HR about the mental stress that I am causing you.

So I decided to just email another young colleague -- a young woman who was a D1 rower. So not weak mentally.

She responded, completed the work (a few hours' worth), and sent it to back to me already (Sunday night where I am right now). Good to know there are still some ass kickers out there.

I'm going to ask her tomorrow if she knows who Wally Backman is. Even odds says she does. Let's Go Mets!!

[packs]

Setting boundaries is mature and so is being direct with someone who is bothering you. Those aren’t weak traits but you’re trying to paint the person as weak because they put their foot down.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by packs

Setting boundaries is mature and so is being direct with someone who is bothering you. Those aren’t weak traits but you’re trying to paint the person as weak because they put their foot down.

With all earnestness, I see where you are coming from.

I guess I just don't understand why someone just starting out would be so concerned about work life balance. When someone sends you an email over the weekend, that's an opportunity to show your initiative and highlight your responsiveness. At least it was when I was his age. It's not a mental health assault. Careers may not be the entirety of someone's identity, but especially for young people just starting out, I would have thought it would at least be an important part.

[packs]

Everyone entering the workforce should have the same respect for work life balance. When somebody is dying they don’t ever wish they could get just a little more time to work.

The expression is you only LIVE once. Not you only work once.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by bk400

And that would be perfectly fine. And you'd get bonus points for not whining to HR about the mental stress that I am causing you.

So I decided to just email another young colleague -- a young woman who was a D1 rower. So not weak mentally.

She responded, completed the work (a few hours' worth), and sent it to back to me already (Sunday night where I am right now). Good to know there are still some ass kickers out there.

I'm going to ask her tomorrow if she knows who Wally Backman is. Even odds says she does. Let's Go Mets!!

So someone complained to HR about you and then you decided to do the exact same thing involving someone else. You must be a popular guy at work.

[packs]

OP appreciates and commends the other employee who did not stand up for themselves and allowed their private time to be co-opted by a work colleague but describes the employee who stood up for themselves and was assertive in the situation as weak willed. Seems backwards to me. You might not like the request but a weak person wouldn’t have made it in my opinion.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by jayshum

So someone complained to HR about you and then you decided to do the exact same thing involving someone else. You must be a popular guy at work.

Interesting. And perhaps another fundamental disagreement. It's not my job to be popular at work; it's my job to deliver results and help instill less experienced colleagues with the skills and mentality to succeed in what is considered to be a fairly competitive field.

We'll see who gets further in his or her career, D1 Rower or BCC HR. If you don't think career success is relevant to long term happiness and security or if you define career success differently, well, to each his own.

Perhaps there will come a day when you can get promoted and paid well while perfectly protecting your work life balance. But I don't think that day is ever coming, at least not in competitive fields in a capitalist society.

To bring it back to baseball, how much would you pay to watch MLB baseball players whose time on the clock in a traditional corporate sense (training, travel, physio, weights, film, batting practice, etc.) were limited, by statute, to 40 hours per week?

These are grown men playing a children's game with no real life consequences, and we are fine if they have no work life balance for at least 6 months out of the year and probably for many years before that when they are trying to just make the big leagues.

Why should our more pedestrian industries be treated any differently? Isn't it a good thing if doctors, lawyers, accountants, financial advisers, money managers, car mechanics, and carpenters also strive to be the very best in their fields? Happy to be challenged on this, but I don't think there is any field where you can be the best while putting in the minimum 40, especially when you're just starting out and learning the ropes.

[CardPadre]

Originally Posted by bk400

And that would be perfectly fine. And you'd get bonus points for not whining to HR about the mental stress that I am causing you.



So I decided to just email another young colleague -- a young woman who was a D1 rower. So not weak mentally.



She responded, completed the work (a few hours' worth), and sent it to back to me already (Sunday night where I am right now). Good to know there are still some ass kickers out there.



I'm going to ask her tomorrow if she knows who Wally Backman is. Even odds says she does. Let's Go Mets!!

Yeah, this is the best part for me. The poor soul who felt compelled to do weekend work based on your certainly unwelcome email, now has an equally unwelcome conversation with you about Wally Backman in her future. Keep kicking ass, bud.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by CardPadre

Yeah, this is the best part for me. The poor soul who felt compelled to do weekend work based on your certainly unwelcome email, now has an equally unwelcome conversation with you about Wally Backmam in her future. Keep kicking ass, bud.

"This guy at work wanted to talk to me about some baseball player from 40 years ago and I was like, dude, just don't send me work emails on the weekends anymore."

[G1911]

Is this somebody's troll account? Between this, the threads proclaiming Soto's 15 year deal a failure after 2 weeks, declaring Ohtani's career over because a children's book was published it's difficult to believe this is a serious person. The statements are so over the top stupid lol

[bk400]

Originally Posted by G1911

Is this somebody's troll account? Between this, the threads proclaiming Soto's 15 year deal a failure after 2 weeks, declaring Ohtani's career over because a children's book was published it's difficult to believe this is a serious person. The statements are so over the top stupid lol

I missed the voice of wisdom and truth from the thread. Welcome back!

[G1911]

Originally Posted by bk400

I missed the voice of wisdom and truth from the thread. Welcome back!

Why aren't you working? Go be the best! Show these young losers how it's done, put in that OT and don't have a personal life or take weekend days off. Hop to it

[bk400]

Originally Posted by G1911

Why aren't you working? Go be the best! Show these young losers how it's done, put in that OT and don't have a personal life or take weekend days off. Hop to it

Ok, I'll engage with you.

What do you find "over the top stupid" with what I asserted in Post 17 of this thread (which captures the heart of the issue)?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bk400

Ok, I'll engage with you.

What do you find "over the top stupid" with what I asserted in Post 17 of this thread (which captures the heart of the issue)?

As a guy who has run the gamut in his career from entry level to management to business owner I'll take a stab at this one.

Interesting. And perhaps another fundamental disagreement. It's not my job to be popular at work; it's my job to deliver results and help instill less experienced colleagues with the skills and mentality to succeed in what is considered to be a fairly competitive field.

It may not be your job to be popular but if you answer to HR it MAY be your job not to make your underlings so miserable that they feel compelled to report you.

We'll see who gets further in his or her career, D1 Rower or BCC HR. If you don't think career success is relevant to long term happiness and security or if you define career success differently, well, to each his own.

We'll also see who burns out faster and who is a better future manager of people. There's this wonderful touchy feelie concept of emotional intelligence, that I happen to believe in. I don't want to bash the person you perceive as more ambitious, I can even admire that she is willing to go the extra mile, but you're judging by your yardstick only and that's a lack of perspective that isn't productive.

Perhaps there will come a day when you can get promoted and paid well while perfectly protecting your work life balance. But I don't think that day is ever coming, at least not in competitive fields in a capitalist society.

Simply put, you're wrong. That day is here. people who DO protect their work life balance are actually more productive during their work time because they don't resent the intrusion on their life. If you are going to ask people to do things on personal time then where is the incentive for them to finish their work in a timely fashion during normal hours? When I have a kick ass employee who blasts through tons of work during the regular work day I DON'T reward them with an intrusion on their personal time, and in turn they DO reward me with continued excellence. An occasional emergency notwithstanding I am incredibly respectful of my employees time, which in turn makes them respectful of mine (meaning their time at work.)

To bring it back to baseball, how much would you pay to watch MLB baseball players whose time on the clock in a traditional corporate sense (training, travel, physio, weights, film, batting practice, etc.) were limited, by statute, to 40 hours per week?

These are grown men playing a children's game with no real life consequences, and we are fine if they have no work life balance for at least 6 months out of the year and probably for many years before that when they are trying to just make the big leagues.

Why should our more pedestrian industries be treated any differently? Isn't it a good thing if doctors, lawyers, accountants, financial advisers, money managers, car mechanics, and carpenters also strive to be the very best in their fields? Happy to be challenged on this, but I don't think there is any field where you can be the best while putting in the minimum 40, especially when you're just starting out and learning the ropes.

Yes but the teams aren't forcing them to train extra, hire a nutritionist, work out etc, it's a choice. LeBron James is probably the most fanatical athlete in history about his prep, conditioning etc, which is why he has excelled years past a time when the vast majority of players have declined and hung it up. No team called him in the off season to MAKE him do this.

And how do you know the employees in question AREN'T working to improve themselves on their own time. Whether it's reading, formal education, or any one of a thousand other things that they might be doing to improve their knowledge and/or performance that you know nothing about.

Again you seem only able to judge people from your own perspective which is a pretty narrow view of things. I don't think you're a bad guy, or even a bad boss, but I do think you need to broaden your view of the world some. There's more than one way to skin a cat, not just the way you learned or prefer.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As a guy who has run the gamut in his career from entry level to management to business owner I'll take a stab at this one.

Interesting. And perhaps another fundamental disagreement. It's not my job to be popular at work; it's my job to deliver results and help instill less experienced colleagues with the skills and mentality to succeed in what is considered to be a fairly competitive field.

It may not be your job to be popular but if you answer to HR it MAY be your job not to make your underlings so miserable that they feel compelled to report you.

We'll see who gets further in his or her career, D1 Rower or BCC HR. If you don't think career success is relevant to long term happiness and security or if you define career success differently, well, to each his own.

We'll also see who burns out faster and who is a better future manager of people. There's this wonderful touchy feelie concept of emotional intelligence, that I happen to believe in. I don't want to bash the person you perceive as more ambitious, I can even admire that she is willing to go the extra mile, but you're judging by your yardstick only and that's a lack of perspective that isn't productive.

Perhaps there will come a day when you can get promoted and paid well while perfectly protecting your work life balance. But I don't think that day is ever coming, at least not in competitive fields in a capitalist society.

Simply put, you're wrong. That day is here. people who DO protect their work life balance are actually more productive during their work time because they don't resent the intrusion on their life. If you are going to ask people to do things on personal time then where is the incentive for them to finish their work in a timely fashion during normal hours? When I have a kick ass employee who blasts through tons of work during the regular work day I DON'T reward them with an intrusion on their personal time, and in turn they DO reward me with continued excellence. An occasional emergency notwithstanding I am incredibly respectful of my employees time, which in turn makes them respectful of mine (meaning their time at work.)

To bring it back to baseball, how much would you pay to watch MLB baseball players whose time on the clock in a traditional corporate sense (training, travel, physio, weights, film, batting practice, etc.) were limited, by statute, to 40 hours per week?

These are grown men playing a children's game with no real life consequences, and we are fine if they have no work life balance for at least 6 months out of the year and probably for many years before that when they are trying to just make the big leagues.

Why should our more pedestrian industries be treated any differently? Isn't it a good thing if doctors, lawyers, accountants, financial advisers, money managers, car mechanics, and carpenters also strive to be the very best in their fields? Happy to be challenged on this, but I don't think there is any field where you can be the best while putting in the minimum 40, especially when you're just starting out and learning the ropes.

Yes but the teams aren't forcing them to train extra, hire a nutritionist, work out etc, it's a choice. LeBron James is probably the most fanatical athlete in history about his prep, conditioning etc, which is why he has excelled years past a time when the vast majority of players have declined and hung it up. No team called him in the off season to MAKE him do this.

And how do you know the employees in question AREN'T working to improve themselves on their own time. Whether it's reading, formal education, or any one of a thousand other things that they might be doing to improve their knowledge and/or performance that you know nothing about.

Again you seem only able to judge people from your own perspective which is a pretty narrow view of things. I don't think you're a bad guy, or even a bad boss, but I do think you need to broaden your view of the world some. There's more than one way to skin a cat, not just the way you learned or prefer.

+1

Well said, Scott.

[packs]

I’ll point out that you said you would prefer people get promoted and evaluated on their dedicated work but you also assigned a lot of preconceived characteristics to a colleague after you found out they were a D1 rower in college, all of which were unrelated to their performance in the office and tied only to assumptions about people who play a team sport in college. You didn’t make one comment about the quality of work of the person who reported you. You have only hinted that there is something inherently less than about anyone who didn’t play a D1 sport, which doesn’t sound like a sound method of evaluating employees.

[NiceDocter]

Alright you Net54 slackers….. where you been all your lives? Listening to rock music and bad mouthing your country? Don’t you eyeball me boy! Now drop and give me 20!!

[bk400]

First of all, I would like to thank all of you for your comments, whether snarky or substantive. I started this thread on Saturday night, my time, as a way to channel some negative energy into a positive endeavor: finding an excuse to get good old Wally Backman some airtime. I didn't think that a post on a baseball card forum would lead me to some constructive introspection about real life issues.

Some of you put some real thought into your responses, so I'll respond in kind in two posts.

Packs -- With respect to your most recent point about a bias toward student athletes at work, I'll say that the first time I thought about her background as a walk-on, turned varsity D1 rower was when I was thinking about which junior colleague to send the work related email. I was frankly shocked that the first colleague felt like I was putting him under undue mental pressure -- enough to BCC HR in his carefully and assertively drafted response to me.

So you are correct in that I did take into account her background as a Division 1 rower in deciding which colleague to contact next. Rowing is one of the most physically and mentally painful sports, and I did assume that someone who was willing to put themselves through an endeavor like that for four years with little or no chance of NIL riches or professional career prospects at the end of it would be able to mentally handle a weekend email, whether welcomed or unwanted. Candidly, I also took into account the fact that she is female who decided to work in an overwhelmingly male industry. Is this bias? Perhaps. But we are all human beings at the end of the day.

To complete the point, I haven't really worked directly with either of the colleagues. This was basically the first substantive engagement with either. The only evidence I now have are their respective responses to my email.

I'll also reiterate that I did not provide a weekend deadline for the work (those days are long gone). I just asked to review something "early next week". I remain somewhat amazed that the mere receipt of a work email over the weekend could constitute undue mental pressure for any young professional. But I'm learning, albeit slowly.

[bk400]

Scott -- really profound results that you've gotten with your team. Your employees are lucky.

I think your LeBron analogy is a great one, but I take away something very different: LeBron doesn't make a roster if he doesn't voluntarily do all those things above and beyond the minimum expectations for an NBA player. Unless you're G-d's gift to athletic ability, I suspect that no one on an NBA roster gets there and stays there without going well beyond the equivalent of the minimum 40-hour work week. I don't think there's anything wrong with the owner of the auto body shop or the local accounting firm holding his or her employees to the same relative standards. Obviously, there are market forces at play that naturally set boundaries on the expectations of owners / managers -- and these market forces depend on how competitive the labor forces are for the given industry. But fundamentally, I don't see anything wrong with selecting a team from the best performers in a given pool of employees, noting that the best performers are often (but, admittedly, not always) those who are willing to commit above and beyond the minimum requirements.

I take your point about burnout and whether ambitiousness at the junior levels can have negative consequences when they become managers. I suppose we are products of our own professional development. My old bosses used to work insane hours to meet deadlines. So when they asked me to join them to help out, they had credibility. They weren't asking me to do anything they hadn't done themselves. More importantly, when they asked me to work hard and late, it felt like I was joining the club. Maybe you're right in that we are at the stage where you can have perfect work life balance and still get promoted and paid well and, therefore, you don't need managers who have the experience of grinding it out.

But there's another side to that also. I've been through four massive layoffs at various points in my career -- survived some of them. I'm sure many others on this forum have been through that as well. My experience is that when times are tough, the warm fuzziness evaporates, and seats on lifeboats go fast. During those times, work is life, and life is work. Especially if you have a young family. When I look back at the best bosses I had, they weren't the nice guys.

They were the guys who had the biggest P&Ls with the fewest number of people. Pure and simple. Because when times got tough -- and they sometimes do -- they have the stick internally to fight for seats on the lifeboats for their teams. How do you get on those teams in the first place? It's usually by demonstrating that you have a track record of going above and beyond.

I feel that I'd be remiss as a manager to not at least try to teach grit. I'm not saying I'm the grittiest guy or the best guy, but I try my best to offer what I can to the next generation.

[bk400]

Another card of the best second baseman in the history of baseball

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I just want to say, my point was all about perspective. I didn't want it to seem like I was coming down on you, so I'm glad to see you took it in the spirit it was offered.

And all that being said, personally, I have worked in several places where I more or less volunteered to be almost always available. Not sure it always had any massive impact on my status with those companies.

As the owner I probably AVERAGE 75 hours a week, but I don't feel that gives me the right to expect anything even remotely like that from my employees even though I could rightfully say "well I do it." Of course on the rare occasions where I am compelled to ask for a little bit more I have not just the credibility of my work ethic, but also the good will capital built up from not asking for extra on a regular basis.

I will say that I do send emails on weekends, to work email addresses, but that's so I don't forget. Frankly I would be shocked to even get a response until the recipient is back at work.

[steve B]

I've mostly worked blue collar jobs, and more old school than new.
I had email before any place I worked.

Work time was work time. And I was paid for that time.
My time was MY TIME. If I was getting a call on the weekend or holiday or at night, there better be a very good reason. Asked to stay late, or work a weekend day? Sure, usually no problem.

And in things I was good at, I was VERY good. and not bad at things I didn't emphasize. (One place we were a distributor for referred all their odd calls or calls from people who needed help east of the Mississippi to me)

Being part of an old school industrial place that was too small to have HR, my initial reaction to a weekend call for something for Monday, maybe Tuesday would have been ..... "colorful" and probably not approved by anyones HR dept.
In many places, contact on a non work day makes that day a work day by law. Thanks for extending my weekend/vacation. And maybe giving me some extra pay. Now _ off!
Ok, wouldn't have told the boss that since my typical chain of command was Me-Owner. But there would have been a discussion Monday.

And no, I'm not and never was union.

[Snapolit1]

There is no more pathetic person at any company than the guy or gal who regularly sends non urgent emails on holidays, at 7pm on Friday night, during the Super Bowl, and other odd times basically to make it known to others that they are working when others are not. What you are basically advertising is you dont have a life. Dont ever be that person.

[Eric72]

Quick question:

Did the employee see the email over the weekend, while they were off?

If so, they really shouldn't be upset. If they believe work emails are "creating undue pressure outside of work hours," perhaps they shouldn't check their work email during their time off.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Quick question:

Did the employee see the email over the weekend, while they were off?

If so, they really shouldn't be upset. If they believe work emails are "creating undue pressure outside of work hours," perhaps they shouldn't check their work email during their time off.

I do it sometimes and I almost always regret it.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Quick question:

Did the employee see the email over the weekend, while they were off?

If so, they really shouldn't be upset. If they believe work emails are "creating undue pressure outside of work hours," perhaps they shouldn't check their work email during their time off.

Yes, he saw the email and then responded with the claim of undue work pressure.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by bk400

Yes, he saw the email and then responded with the claim of undue work pressure.

I'm guessing he doesn't see the irony. Hopefully, HR will tell him to consider the possibility he may actually see messages if he checks his email. Some of those messages *might* contain action items for him to handle during the work week.

I know, I know...wild concept, right?

[Econteachert205]

Schedule send the emails dude.