1920-31 Major League Die Cuts question

[cubman1941]

I understand that there were 14 players for each team. I guess they varied each year thus making more than 14 players for each team over the course of the game? I looked at the old discussions and this was not clear. The Standard Catalog of Vintage BB Cards indicates perhaps each year a new sheet was produced for the teams. I gather the only way to get a complete team set is to get the sheet for each year? Two examples – I have one listed as part of a 1926 set and one listed as a 1927. I don’t remember why I have them listed this way except I guess that is what I was told when I got them oh so many years ago. It appears both may have had stickers attached so maybe some years there were only stickers may for the team?

[DW03]

-Fourteen die-cut player cards used for each team

-All 16 teams represented; roster varied each year


Anyone know of a year by year checklist besides tcdb?

[Snapolit1]

FYI Collector Connection has a Gehrig listed in its current auction.

[nolemmings]

Thanks for posting those Jim, I did not have them in my database. I do not believe it was necessary to buy a new sheet every year, although one likely was available. I say this because you will often find the same player with multiple labels stuck on top of each other, presumably as updates, so it seems you could order just the labels from year to year. The first year was 1921, and the info was printed right on the base of the die-cut player. After that, it appears that the company printed the sheets– same poses and uniform colors year to year– with a number on the bottom of the die-cut that corresponded to a specific position on the field. Slap the appropriate label on the corresponding die-cut and voila.

In your case, the Freigau and all third basemen were assigned #8, and the proper pose for a third baseman was the one associated with what you identified as a 1926 card. The other you show is the pose given to the second baseman, which Freigau never played for the Cubs. As for which year is which, that is very difficult to discern because both of the labels shown appear identical. Although there are subtle changes in the typeset or spacing used throughout the 1921-30 period when these were produced, I am uncertain that each year was unique. If you have other Cubs from that same period 1925-1927 (when Freigau was there) whose label is slightly different then that might be a tell, assuming the players were not also Cubs before and/or after.

[cubman1941]

Appreciate the info. I have 7 other Cubs which I now need to add the years they were with the Cubs and look to see if there is possibly a label on them (didn't even know that until I saw a post on these and then looked to see what I had). I normally do that for all my vintage Cubs and don't know why I didn't here. I had them listed as 1926 Cubs probably for the same reason, that is what they were listed at when I got them. I may have got them at one of the Nationals I used to go to. I also didn't know about the label until I looked at the SCD Catalog. Be interesting to see what I come up with.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thanks for posting those Jim, I did not have them in my database. I do not believe it was necessary to buy a new sheet every year, although one likely was available. I say this because you will often find the same player with multiple labels stuck on top of each other, presumably as updates, so it seems you could order just the labels from year to year. The first year was 1921, and the info was printed right on the base of the die-cut player. After that, it appears that the company printed the sheets– same poses and uniform colors year to year– with a number on the bottom of the die-cut that corresponded to a specific position on the field. Slap the appropriate label on the corresponding die-cut and voila.

In your case, the Freigau and all third basemen were assigned #8, and the proper pose for a third baseman was the one associated with what you identified as a 1926 card. The other you show is the pose given to the second baseman, which Freigau never played for the Cubs. As for which year is which, that is very difficult to discern because both of the labels shown appear identical. Although there are subtle changes in the typeset or spacing used throughout the 1921-30 period when these were produced, I am uncertain that each year was unique. If you have other Cubs from that same period 1925-1927 (when Freigau was there) whose label is slightly different then that might be a tell, assuming the players were not also Cubs before and/or after.

[Leon]

Nice info, Todd. Thanks for sharing. I haven't handled too many of these and the multiple label thing is intersting.

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thanks for posting those Jim, I did not have them in my database. I do not believe it was necessary to buy a new sheet every year, although one likely was available. I say this because you will often find the same player with multiple labels stuck on top of each other, presumably as updates, so it seems you could order just the labels from year to year. The first year was 1921, and the info was printed right on the base of the die-cut player. After that, it appears that the company printed the sheets– same poses and uniform colors year to year– with a number on the bottom of the die-cut that corresponded to a specific position on the field. Slap the appropriate label on the corresponding die-cut and voila.

In your case, the Freigau and all third basemen were assigned #8, and the proper pose for a third baseman was the one associated with what you identified as a 1926 card. The other you show is the pose given to the second baseman, which Freigau never played for the Cubs. As for which year is which, that is very difficult to discern because both of the labels shown appear identical. Although there are subtle changes in the typeset or spacing used throughout the 1921-30 period when these were produced, I am uncertain that each year was unique. If you have other Cubs from that same period 1925-1927 (when Freigau was there) whose label is slightly different then that might be a tell, assuming the players were not also Cubs before and/or after.

[nolemmings]

Thanks Leon.
I dabble in researching these from time to time, although they are probably among the least popular cards out there for a few obvious reasons.

There are various small distinctions in many of the labels that help pinpoint the year these were issued, but the differences can be subtle and the degree of proof sometimes wobbly. Every once in awhile a large group of one team or more will help establish a specific year of issue– the 1927 Yankees for example– then you can look closely at the typeset on the labels and compare with others to include or exclude them as coming from the same year.

It would be neat if someone could take one of these that has multiple labels and remove the top ones so that we can at least deduce that what lies below was earlier in time. Here is my favorite, which is about as generic as they come:


What is interesting is that this is from the initial 1921 set, where the info was printed right onto the player’s base. This one is of a lefty pitcher, of which there are two in every single team set. The problem is that the 1921 Yankees had only one southpaw–Harry Harper, who was part of the set- which left the other lefty pose without a name to fill. It is unlikely that this ever occurred again for any team in the entire ten-year run of these die-cuts. So there he is, an anonymous player. As the years went by the boards were changed to no longer list info but just numbers on the base and only labels were supplied, which left the owner to decide who went with each pose. Therefore this is likely the only instance where you have an anonymous player identified with no name in the entire decade-long life of the game (although obviously someone could ‘fix” that after 1921 by slapping some player’s label over it).

[ValKehl]

For anyone who has never seen a complete sheet, here's the 1921 initial-year sheet for the Washington Senators:

[cubman1941]

This 1921 Senators sheet is fantastic. I am going to compare my few Cubs with it to see what I might find out. Thanks for sharing.

[GeoPoto]

Great piece, Val!

[JLange]

I am inclined to think the whole team set was available each year with roster changes as needed. I bought a Cleveland Indians team set off eBay a few years ago - a near complete team set with envelope - missing Joe Sewell. I believe the seller had that one graded and offered separately.

It’s still on my to-do list to research the players/poses to pin down the date.

[cubman1941]

Great looking set.

[h2oya311]

Just to throw a minor wrinkle in the dating of the set. I believe updates may have been made into the 1930s, perhaps as late as 1932-33.

Evidence:


Appling appeared in a whopping 6 games for the Sox in 1930 and I doubt he was already batting 5th.

Could his inclusion in the set push the date (for some teams/players, at least) beyond the commonly accepted end date of 1930?

For what it’s worth, Appling’s earliest card is generally believed to be from the 1932-33 W573 set.
https://imageevent.com/derekgranger/...st/lukeappling

This die-cut would almost certainly pre-date that one unless these were issued even later than 1932. Dating of sets is sort of important to some of the crazy HOF rookie/earliest card collectors out there. You guys know anyone out there with that interest?? If so, take note of this thread/post!

[nolemmings]

Thanks for that Derek. It does seem that the label for Appling might be from 1932, since Appling was not even acquired by the ChiSox until late August 1930 and Cissell was the primary shortstop in 1931. This sets my research back a bit when trying to date these. I had Heinie Schuble tied to the 1929 set, for example, since that was the only year in the 1921-30 range where he played for Detroit– but now I see he was back with the Tigers in 1932. Looks like I will now have to re-examine a few of these. Thanks again, I think.

Here is a sheet from after 1921, when the players simply had a number on their base to which a corresponding label could be attached— note that someone plugged in the last guy, #14, since he is wearing a Giants uniform on a Philly sheet.

[cubman1941]

This is all very interesting - I gather then that there were 5 pitchers, 2 catchers and one of the other positions for each team to begin with.

[JLange]

Interesting details on the sheet. Instructions say to label each player according to number, carefully separate the men from the sheet, and keep them in small envelope. Were team envelopes provided with each sheet?

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by JLange

Interesting details on the sheet. Instructions say to label each player according to number, carefully separate the men from the sheet, and keep them in small envelope. Were team envelopes provided with each sheet?

It has always been my assumption that yes, all team envelopes were provided with the sheets. What is unclear to me is what options were available for purchasing the updates. I assume that the customer did not have to buy the sheets each year because of all the die-cuts you see with labels affixed over presumably older labels. Whether each year's labels came with team envelopes or instead were just sent some other way without envelopes is unknown, at least to me.
Here is some more eye candy, again not mine, showing Tyrus:

[ValKehl]

In addition to the initial-year, full sheet of Senators (see post #8 above) which shows Sam Rice as a center fielder and batting in the 4th position, I have this individual die-cut card of Rice (I have no idea what year it was issued) which shows Rice as a right fielder and batting in the 2nd position. Interestingly, during the years 1920-22 Rice mostly played center field, whereas from 1923 until the end of his career he primarily played right field.