BST etiquette am I wrong

[bigfanNY]

Last night I am out to dinner I see a post for a Police Gazette Supplement of Joe Jackson. Seller is asking $1750. I posted to thread If the Jackson is available I will take it. Seller responds.

Getting a lot of interest. Are you good at $1750? I’d like a no fee method if possible, or net to me at 1750. Let me know quickly.

I responded done. Send me payment information.

This morning I get you took to long to respond so I sold to someone else.

Am I wrong or dose I will take it mean just that?
When I get an I'll take it I just send my payment information. I have never had anyone say I will take it and back out. But maybe BST is changing.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Last night I am out to dinner I see a post for a Police Gazette Supplement of Joe Jackson. Seller is asking $1750. I posted to thread If the Jackson is available I will take it. Seller responds.

Getting a lot of interest. Are you good at $1750? I’d like a no fee method if possible, or net to me at 1750. Let me know quickly.

I responded done. Send me payment information.

This morning I get you took to long to respond so I sold to someone else.

Am I wrong or dose I will take it mean just that?
When I get an I'll take it I just send my payment information. I have never had anyone say I will take it and back out. But maybe BST is changing.

I have twice and realistically there is nothing that can be done about it. I just moved on and now refuse to deal with them. So not new just not brought up much for a few reasons.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We just did a very long thread on this very topic. Lots of viewpoints there.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=358445

And here is the post in question to the extent the language matters.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ghlight=police

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Last night I am out to dinner I see a post for a Police Gazette Supplement of Joe Jackson. Seller is asking $1750. I posted to thread If the Jackson is available I will take it. Seller responds.

Getting a lot of interest. Are you good at $1750? I’d like a no fee method if possible, or net to me at 1750. Let me know quickly.

I responded done. Send me payment information.

This morning I get you took to long to respond so I sold to someone else.

Am I wrong or dose I will take it mean just that?
When I get an I'll take it I just send my payment information. I have never had anyone say I will take it and back out. But maybe BST is changing.

According to what you stated, you are not wrong (to me).
Please PM me their id. At least we can do an infraction and if they do it again they will be banned. It is not ok to consummate a deal and not go through with it. (unless there is an extraordinary situation)
That said, I will always get the other parties comments about the situation, to make a fair decision.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We just did a very long thread on this very topic. Lots of viewpoints there.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=358445

And here is the post in question to the extent the language matters.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ghlight=police

I hadn't opened your links. Infraction given.
.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Leon

I hadn't opened your links. Infraction given.
.

Thank you, sir. The right thing to do, IMO.

I have never had anything like that happen to me in the B/S/T. I sympathize with the OP; that would be awful.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If they were still going back and forth on price, it's hard to see an obligation to wait with an offer in hand. But here the seller clearly could have waited a reasonable time for the OP to confirm payment method, especially where the OP had asked for payment method. Breach of contract, no, not technically IMO, but breach of etiquette, for sure.

EDIT TO ADD In light of Leon's post, clarifying that this assessment is based on taking the OP at his word as to what happened.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If they were still going back and forth on price, it's hard to see an obligation to wait with an offer in hand. But here the seller clearly could have waited just to confirm payment method, especially where the OP had asked for payment method.

I am getting a different story from the other party, so let's see how this plays out. I was hasty in my judgment even if it turns out the same. I always need to get two sides to the story, because we all know there are 3 sides! I don't think price was the issue, I think it was timing..
More to follow....

[BobbyStrawberry]

I find it odd that the seller would, after receiving an "I'll take it" message, respond with "Are you good with my asking price?"

[Vintage Vern]

Depending on what was done or not done via DM the board posts show as should have been sold at 6:51 pm.

The first response was sent at 9:35 am so I'm guessing not sold before the second post, and the sold didn't officially come in until 8:04 pm. So what happened in the 73 minute span?

[Vintage Vern]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I find it odd that the seller would, after receiving an "I'll take it" message, respond with "Are you good with my asking price?"

I think the seller wanted to know if buyer was good with paying the total asking price plus any additional charges so there was nothing misconstrued.

[Vintage Vern]

For future reference what is the correct procedure? To claim it on the board first then handle all other parts of the transaction with a DM or just skip the board, and go straight DM from the jump?

[bigfanNY]

Leon can see the timestamps. I stand by my OP. Evereryone can read thread and I quoted his response completely.
That fact that he replied to me says the card was available. And he had my statment of "I will take it".

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Vintage Vern

For future reference what is the correct procedure? To claim it on the board first then handle all other parts of the transaction with a DM or just skip the board, and go straight DM from the jump?

It's best to do a PM and a post, in the thread, but I ALWAYS go by time stamps as a seller, regardless of the way it's communicated.

Here is my view. Until both parties acknowlege the deal is done, then it isn't done. Merely saying "I will take it" is only half of the equation. Communication is key. I would venture to guess 99+/- % of folks never have this issue. I have been beat to the punch more times than I can remember on the BST. I lick my wounds and walk away.

The OP is out for several, but says he never said "sold" or "it's yours"...etc. ..And also to let him know quickly, as others were in line. But again, we will see ....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

Leon can see the timestamps. I stand by my OP. Evereryone can read thread and I quoted his response completely.
That fact that he replied to me says the card was available. And he had my statment of "I will take it".

But he never said it was yours?, and I think until then someone else could sneak in and he say it's theirs. He said sold, in that thread...which is what I erroneously read the same way you did. But it was sold to someone else in the few hours it took you to get back to him.....

He says he can get time stamps later today. I always try to be fair.

ps....I have never seen anyone's pm's on the forum. If they incorreclty hit reply to a pm, it could come to me by accident to my email. I could probably figure out how to read them but have never wanted to.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Jonathan posted he would take the card. He obviously was OK with the price and obviously intended to pay. At that point, seller should have waited a reasonable time to work out the payment mechanics. Not as a matter of contract law, not gonna rehash that, but as a matter of principle/etiquette/whatever.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jonathan posted he would take the card. He obviously was OK with the price and obviously intended to pay. At that point, seller should have waited a reasonable time to work out the payment mechanics. Not as a matter of contract law, not gonna rehash that, but as a matter of principle/etiquette/whatever.

Hard to say without knowing what PMs the seller may have received from others.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Hard to say without knowing what PMs the seller may have received from others.

What difference does it make? Jonathan said he would take the card and given his long history here there is no reason whatever to doubt him. It's not hard in this world to do the right thing by people.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Jonathan posted he would take the card. He obviously was OK with the price and obviously intended to pay. At that point, seller should have waited a reasonable time to work out the payment mechanics. Not as a matter of contract law, not gonna rehash that, but as a matter of principle/etiquette/whatever.

I agree it should be sold to the first person when there is a contract. Offer AND acceptance.
According to the seller it was around 2 hours later when Jonathan got back to him AND he originally told him to hurry as others were in line.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree it should be sold to the first person when there is a contract. Offer AND acceptance.
According to the seller it was around 2 hours later when Jonathan got back to him AND he originally told him to hurry as others were in line.

Two hours is a long time? That's absurd IMO. And again, this is not a matter of contract law, it's a matter of decency and common sense. I am surprised you don't see this, honestly.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What difference does it make? Jonathan said he would take the card and given his long history here there is no reason whatever to doubt him. It's not hard in this world to do the right thing by people.

How do you know someone didn't PM him earlier and say he would take it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

How do you know someone didn't PM him earlier and say he would take it?

The seller would have told Jonathan that, instead of asking him if no fee was OK and to let him know. The card was obviously still available.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Two hours is a long time? That's absurd IMO. And again, this is not a matter of contract law, it's a matter of decency and common sense. I am surprised you don't see this, honestly.

Well, I was just stating what lawyers say LOL

Timing is up to the seller but I am not going to hold it against the seller in this situation. I would probably wait, but given all of the information, it's not going to get a reprimand on the forum. This isn't a situation where seller said, ok it's yours, and then backed out. He never said Jonathan got it. I wouldn't consider that a done deal but maybe you do?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Well, I was just stating what lawyers say LOL

Timing is up to the seller but I am not going to hold it against the seller in this situation. I would probably wait, but given all of the information, it's not going to get a reprimand on the forum. This isn't a situation where seller said, ok it's yours, and then backed out. He never said Jonathan got it. I wouldn't consider that a done deal but maybe you do?

I said twice at least there was no binding contract, but that to me is beside the point. The right thing to do was to give the man a reasonable chance to say yes (or no) to no fee. A reasonable chance is not 2 hours in the context of an online forum.

[bigfanNY]

So if seller posts I have card for sale for $100 and potential buyer posts I will take it. Other potential buyers can in your words Sneak in and buy it? Can buyers sneak out of deals after saying I will take it?

His reply saying we are good at $1750? Isn't conformation we had a meeting of the minds? And that the card was / is available when I posted I will take it?

I'm asking here I know Peter and Ohio Lawyer discussed this recently at length. But I am not a lawyer just a collector

[Vintage Vern]

So it was sold with a private message otherwise another I'll take it if so and so doesn't work out on the BST original post. Otherwise it was sold out from under the original person that did so on original board post and then DM. So basically was handled the correct way by the person wanting to buy not the seller.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

So if seller posts I have card for sale for $100 and potential buyer posts I will take it. Other potential buyers can in your words Sneak in and buy it? Can buyers sneak out of deals after saying I will take it?

His reply saying we are good at $1750? Isn't conformation we had a meeting of the minds? And that the card was / is available when I posted I will take it?

I'm asking here I know Peter and Ohio Lawyer discussed this recently at length. But I am not a lawyer just a collector

Technically you didn't have a contract because technically you saying I'll take it was an offer, not an acceptance IMO. But again, to me that's not the issue. Any decent person would have given you a chance to confirm the requested payment terms. What ever happened to people doing the right thing not because they had to, but because it was the right thing?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Technically you didn't have a contract because technically you saying I'll take it was an offer, not an acceptance IMO. But again, to me that's not the issue. Any decent person would have given you a chance to confirm the requested payment terms. What ever happened to people doing the right thing not because they had to, but because it was the right thing?

Like I said, I would have waited but not sure I want to get in the middle of that kind of situation, from a punitive standpoint. I could see Judge Judy saying "ok, don't do anymore deals with him"...

She should run for President. (well, maybe 15-20 yrs ago)
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Like I said, I would have waited but not sure I want to get in the middle of that kind of situation, from a punitive standpoint. I could see Judge Judy saying "ok, don't do anymore deals with him"...

She should run for President. (well, maybe 15-20 yrs ago)
.

I'm not commenting on punishment, just on the transaction itself, to be clear.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The seller would have told Jonathan that, instead of asking him if no fee was OK and to let him know. The card was obviously still available.

Pretty big assumption I think given what the OP says happened. Who knows what the seller told someone else. Maybe he asked the same question and was waiting to see which person responded first.

[brunswickreeves]

Net54 BST is not unique to this conundrum of when a card is ACTUALLY owned by a buyer.

With eBay, you can have a discussion with seller, agree to a price, click buy now thus indicating willingness to pay, and the card sits in a virtual shopping cart until payment is made and clears the the bank, thus binding the agreement between seller and buyer. Until then, other buyers can swoop in despite the card being ‘In your Cart’, make payment, and when payment clears, the card disappears from your cart, with the rightful owner being the one who’s payment cleared first.

Lesson here? Assume all positive intent, but see the process through until the very end when the payment clears the bank so to speak. Unless of course you’ve done business together in the past and have established trust and/or process.

[Vintage Vern]

So would it be best practice for a seller after a person says I'll take it, the seller comes back with a post saying pending to so and so.

If that falls through then it goes to the next person that responded on the post or via DM. IMO a post on board vs DM is much better for transparency for all.

To me transparency can be had in the original posting without compromising privacy via DM for the nuts and bolts of the final deal. What seems to be the issue is what goes on behind the scenes in private.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Pretty big assumption I think given what the OP says happened. Who knows what the seller told someone else. Maybe he asked the same question and was waiting to see which person responded first.

That kind of BS would not reflect well on the seller either IMO, if that's what happened. In that case, the right response to Jonathan would have been, deal pending with someone else, but in case it falls through, you're next in line and let me know if no fee is OK.

[brunswickreeves]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That kind of BS would not reflect well on the seller either IMO, if that's what happened. In that case, the right response to Jonathan would have been, deal pending with someone else, but in case it falls through, you're next in line and let me know if no fee is OK.

+1

[111gecko]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What difference does it make? Jonathan said he would take the card and given his long history here there is no reason whatever to doubt him. It's not hard in this world to do the right thing by people.

Yep..

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That kind of BS would not reflect well on the seller either IMO, if that's what happened. In that case, the right response to Jonathan would have been, deal pending with someone else, but in case it falls through, you're next in line and let me know if no fee is OK.

Agreed, but seems like a possibility based on the information available.

[Brent G.]

Apparently for some people two hours is too long to wait and buyers should have the phone glued to them.

[jingram058]

I just day before yesterday made a deal in the B/S/T, pretty straightforward and like all the others I have been involved in. I sent seller a PM and posted I will take it. No other posts. If the seller came back and said, sorry, someone sent him a PM before I did and the cards are sold, I could live with that.

[Cody77]

I had the items posted early Friday morning. I had already received several messages before the OP commented on my thread “if this is still available I’ll take it”. He posted the comment at 5:51pm. In my original post I asked to contact me directly, but he only commented. I saw his comment and responded via private message saying that I was getting a lot of interest in the item already and was asking 1750 and would prefer a non fee method or if he preferred goods and services that he would cover those fees and to please respond quickly due to said interest from others. I sent that message about 30 minutes after his comment was posted. I never got a response from him until 10:48pm that night.

Since I was already in discussion with others (many will message asking for additional photos, offers, etc, but I sent the same message to another buyer and got a response around 7pm and posted a comment on my thread at 7:04pm saying it was sold. Again, the OP didn’t confirm my message or that he was willing to take the item to me personally until 10:48pm. I didn’t see his message until the following morning and told him the item had sold and I had already made the “Sold” comment. He stated that his comment should have been binding and I should have immediately held the item for him. I’ve been buying and selling in memorabilia for nearly 20 years, have done deals with many members here and other places and built a rapport with buyers and sellers for being honest and trustworthy. I have over 5000 on eBay with 100%. When selling or buying I have always confirmed the deal with the seller or buyer before I consider a deal complete. His lack of response in a timely manner to my message, even with my message telling him to respond quickly and there was a lot of interest in the item, lead me to believe that he wasn’t interested in my terms is sale or that he just lost interest. Believe me, I’ve had many people contact me about items during my time selling and they either don’t pay or don’t respond for days. So my rule of doing business is a confirmation between both parties in an agreement before exchanging payment information. I allowed him a chance to confirm and let him know others had interest, so assuming he understood the first to confirm and communicate with me in real time would take it.

Was his comment binding? I don’t believe it’s binding until I get confirmation. I had to reach out directly to him. If he commented, why wouldn’t he contact me directly confirming? That’s how I buy. I’ll comment for the timestamp and then promptly message the seller to confirm my interest and willingness. Instead he left a comment at 5:51pm and didn’t respond back until 10:48pm. Was I supposed to wait until I heard back from him? How would I know when that would be?

To make matters worse, when I messaged him this morning in response to his 10:48 message to let him know the item sold (I had already posted a comment on the thread saying the same at 7pm) he became quite upset to the point that he threatened to take me to court and also report me to Leon. By that point I had already asked him twice to stop messaging me and had to eventually block him to keep him from continuing to harass me in messages. I have spoken to Leon and given him all of the information I just wrote and he removed my infraction notice.

I never spoke directly to this person about the purchase of the item until his response at 10:48pm. To me, if we haven’t directly spoken and confirmed purchase, then the item remains available to someone who can do so. If you have interest in an item and post a comment, then don’t make any effort to contact the seller or confirm the sale, for nearly 6 hours after the comment, that, to me, means he wasn’t serious in the comment and I should move on with the sale to those actively messaging me.

[Cody77]

Here are screenshots of his comment on my thread at 5:51pm (which again, I had to reach out directly via message) and his response to me asking him to confirm at 10:48pm. His original post makes it seem as though he responded immediately which is not the case.

[oldjudge]

I don't see anything wrong with the way either party handled the transaction, just an unfortunate result for Jonathan. The only thing apparent to me is that given the level of interest and the emotions involved the seller apparently sold the card too cheaply.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You asked him to confirm no fee method but did not give him the benefit of a reasonable period to respond. IMO of course.

[Cody77]

I used a recent comparison for sold item at auction and even went $100 over that. But, realizing how quickly I was messaged several times, I probably could have held out for more or removed and relisted higher. But, I chose not to do that and honor my list price. But, he left a comment and vanished from contact for several hours. I reached out with a message to confirm the details and that he was good with everything and in that same message told him I had a lot of interest in the item already and to please respond quickly. He says he was out to dinner in his forum post. If that’s the case, why not comment, then directly message me letting me know he would be busy and get back to me soon. Then I would have held it for him. But he only commented. Leaving me to be the one to respond to him directly. That just isn’t how I do business. If you have interest, then show it. If I’m an interested buyer I contact the seller directly and confirm my interest and would explain why I wouldn’t be able to respond for 5 hours rather than rely on the seller to contact me. I made an attempt to contact him and confirm. I shouldn’t have even had to do that much if he wanted the item. Even in my post I stated “contact me directly”. Then for him to threaten to sue me and go to Leon and also make a forum post to try to make me out to be in the wrong when he made no attempt to let me know why he wouldn’t be able to respond for hours. I had to ask him to stop messaging me as he kept sending those types of messages threatening action until I just had to block him from continuing to message me. Very childish behavior that could have been handled much better overall. But I feel that I handled my end as best I could with what I was given. Even with him continuing to message me after I asked him to stop, I didn’t try to take any action against him and simply blocked him. Like an adult.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You asked him to confirm no fee method but did not give him the benefit of a reasonable period to respond. IMO of course.

+1. Especially given all the interest in the item, surely seller could have waited to hear back, knowing that it would easily sell to another interested party.

Also only my opinion

[Peter_Spaeth]

I certainly don't condone any threats, it's just a card, whatever, move on. But I think most of us, at least of a certain generation, would have not expected Jonathan to respond immediately and would have taken from that just that he was offline and would respond when he was back online. In the device era people seem to have an expectation of instant communication/gratification which, just speaking for myself, is foreign.

[Lorewalker]

I know these conflicts are rare but if this keeps happening maybe very specific terms should be created for buyers who are making offers and sellers who create the listings?

Aside from that, the Jax looks nice and the price seems very fair.

[Cody77]

Peter,
Please explain what a reasonable time would be? 1 hour? 5 hours? 2 days? If he wanted the item so badly, why wouldn’t he message me to ask me about how to pay? He didn’t message me at all. He only commented and I had to reach out to him via messenger. He said he was out to dinner in his post on this forum. Why not message me and tell me he would get back to me soon that he was busy but was willing to confirm to me directly. He left a comment and didn’t make any response to me for 5 hours.

If I’m an interested buyer, I’m commenting to time stamp my interest to other interest buyers and then I’m immediately contacting the seller directly to ask about payment information and to confirm I was first to ask about it. If I’m going to be busy, then I also immediately contact the seller and let them know I’ll be busy but will respond in a given amount of time for payment info and such. He did none of that. So in that case I moved on to parties who were showing active interest and made the sell. First come, first served as I told him in the messages this morning.

It isn’t my fault that he was busy and couldn’t respond, it also isn’t my responsibility to know why he wasn’t responding. He should have taken initiative and let me know. I reached out to confirm his interest and got no response. And in that message I mentioned the level of interest and requested a prompt response. It shouldn’t be my responsibility to sit around and wait for a potential buyer to contact me back 5 hours later after leaving a comment. His level of effort, to me, was matching his level of interest, so I moved on with the sale.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Cody77

Peter,
Please explain what a reasonable time would be? 1 hour? 5 hours? 2 days? If he wanted the item so badly, why wouldn’t he message me to ask me about how to pay? He didn’t message me at all. He only commented and I had to reach out to him via messenger. He said he was out to dinner in his post on this forum. Why not message me and tell me he would get back to me soon that he was busy but was willing to confirm to me directly. He left a comment and didn’t make any response to me for 5 hours.

If I’m an interested buyer, I’m commenting to time stamp my interest to other interest buyers and then I’m immediately contacting the seller directly to ask about payment information and to confirm I was first to ask about it. If I’m going to be busy, then I also immediately contact the seller and let them know I’ll be busy but will respond in a given amount of time for payment info and such. He did none of that. So in that case I moved on to parties who were showing active interest and made the sell. First come, first served as I told him in the messages this morning.

It isn’t my fault that he was busy and couldn’t respond, it also isn’t my responsibility to know why he wasn’t responding. He should have taken initiative and let me know. I reached out to confirm his interest and got no response. And in that message I mentioned the level of interest and requested a prompt response. It shouldn’t be my responsibility to sit around and wait for a potential buyer to contact me back 5 hours later after leaving a comment. His level of effort, to me, was matching his level of interest, so I moved on with the sale.

In my world, 5 hours is a perfectly timely response. If it were me, and you may just have a different orientation I acknowledge, I'm from a different generation (I am assuming)- if I had not heard back from Jonathan by say the next morning, I would have followed up and said please let me know today or I will sell elsewhere. There are lots of guys here I've dealt with who sometimes get back to you the next day, it's normal and fine as far as I am concerned.

What was the anxiety/rush?

[Carter08]

I’ll take the Jackson

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my world, 5 hours is a perfectly timely response. If it were me, and you may just have a different orientation I acknowledge, I'm from a different generation (I am assuming)- if I had not heard back from Jonathan by say the next morning, I would have followed up and said please let me know today or I will sell elsewhere. There are lots of guys here I've dealt with who sometimes get back to you the next day, it's normal and fine as far as I am concerned.

What was the anxiety/rush?

+1 The best way to do it