Grading raw vintage cards for trade or resale purposes

[obcbeatle]

The newest SCD catalog I have is from 2009. Is it safe to say that using the grading guide in that SCD is still sufficient for purposes of grading raw vintage cards for trading and selling? Or are there newer grading guides these days for cards? The reason I ask is that I'm seeing a LOT of TPG graded cards that look VGEX to me, but are graded Poor. Many are posted/pictured here in threads re: "recent pickups", Pre-War & Post-War. I understand that TPG grading can be very harsh, particularly lately, and I understand that their grading can be all over the place, which sort of negates one of the reasons for even having TPG's. But it makes it awfully hard to consider a grade for a simple raw card when considering trades/selling these days. Particularly in the VG, VGEX, EX condition area. And yes, I know everyone has their own opinion on what grade a card should be, e.g. the seller almost always thinks his card is a higher grade than what the buyer perceives. It's human nature I'm just looking for a standard relevant go-to grading guide for raw cards. Bottom line, what guide are raw card collectors using in todays world?

[Musashi]

First, I generally use PSA's published grading guidelines (spoiler alert: they don't use their own guidelines. If they did, there wouldn't be qualifiers). Second, (assuming these are internet sales) I provide a list of the reasons I feel it earned that grade, with emphasis on any issues that may not be obvious in scans. That way, even if the buyer disagrees with my grade, they still have all the information they need to come to their own conclusion before they purchase.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by obcbeatle

The newest SCD catalog I have is from 2009. Is it safe to say that using the grading guide in that SCD is still sufficient for purposes of grading raw vintage cards for trading and selling? Or are there newer grading guides these days for cards? The reason I ask is that I'm seeing a LOT of TPG graded cards that look VGEX to me, but are graded Poor. Many are posted/pictured here in threads re: "recent pickups", Pre-War & Post-War. I understand that TPG grading can be very harsh, particularly lately, and I understand that their grading can be all over the place, which sort of negates one of the reasons for even having TPG's. But it makes it awfully hard to consider a grade for a simple raw card when considering trades/selling these days. Particularly in the VG, VGEX, EX condition area. And yes, I know everyone has their own opinion on what grade a card should be, e.g. the seller almost always thinks his card is a higher grade than what the buyer perceives. It's human nature I'm just looking for a standard relevant go-to grading guide for raw cards. Bottom line, what guide are raw card collectors using in todays world?

For raw cards, it depends upon whether you want to use the traditional grading standards, or the post-covid ones currently being employed by the TPGs. Yesterday's "5" is today's "3", so they've rendered the grading scale meaningless.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by obcbeatle

Bottom line, what guide are raw card collectors using in todays world?

Nothing is higher than VG-EX. You might think I'm being snarky, but I'm a raw collector, and that's literally the standard I use. Given how ridiculously punitive and arbitrary TPGs are (SGC seems better than PSA from what I've seen online), I won't pay more than a 4 comp, maaaaybe a 5 if it looks absolutely beautiful.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Nothing is higher than VG-EX. You might think I'm being snarky, but I'm a raw collector, and that's literally the standard I use. Given how ridiculously punitive and arbitrary TPGs are (SGC seems better than PSA from what I've seen online), I won't pay more than a 4 comp, maaaaybe a 5 if it looks absolutely beautiful.

Not snarky at all, just realistic. I do the exact same.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by obcbeatle

The reason I ask is that I'm seeing a LOT of TPG graded cards that look VGEX to me, but are graded Poor.

One thing to be aware of is that images of cards posted online can be very deceiving. A card gets a PR 1 grade for a reason. No VGEX card is mistakenly graded a 1. If you are seeing nice looking cards that get a 1 grade, you are most likely unable to see a pretty major flaw in the pictures. While grading companies do seem to be a bit harsher these days, the stated grading standards haven't changed all that much. So you are looking for the same things in a VGEX card today as you were back then.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

One thing to be aware of is that images of cards posted online can be very deceiving. A card gets a PR 1 grade for a reason. No VGEX card is mistakenly graded a 1. If you are seeing nice looking cards that get a 1 grade, you are most likely unable to see a pretty major flaw in the pictures. While grading companies do seem to be a bit harsher these days, the stated grading standards haven't changed all that much. So you are looking for the same things in a VGEX card today as you were back then.

Strongly disagree...

Yesterday's "4" (obvious creasing, paper loss, round corners, heavy soiling, dull color, poor registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145235228744


Today's "4" (no creasing or wrinkles, no paper loss, no soiling, good corners, great color and registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375976800862

Make no mistake... The grading standards have changed by 2-3 full points over the past decade.

[swarmee]

I'll say those 1s probably have water damage that has corrupted the makeup of the cardboard itself to get that grade. Sometimes they get Poor instead of "Altered Stock" which would merit an Authentic Altered sometimes.

Another option is a small pinhole or two; sometimes those can now get 2s if the rest of the card looks EX/MT.

[obcbeatle]

Thank you for all the replies, very helpful. One thing I did over the weekend was look at recent eBay sales of raw cards by gmcards vg-vgex, to see what people are paying for that grade. He seems to grade somewhere between old SCD guidelines and PSA, at least for that specific grade. Although as mentioned here, seeing condition online can be problematic. Thanks again!

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Strongly disagree...

Yesterday's "4" (obvious creasing, paper loss, round corners, heavy soiling, dull color, poor registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145235228744


Today's "4" (no creasing or wrinkles, no paper loss, no soiling, good corners, great color and registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375976800862

Make no mistake... The grading standards have changed by 2-3 full points over the past decade.

Wow. If that doesn't just sum up card grading I don't know what does

[StraightRaceCards]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Strongly disagree...

Yesterday's "4" (obvious creasing, paper loss, round corners, heavy soiling, dull color, poor registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145235228744


Today's "4" (no creasing or wrinkles, no paper loss, no soiling, good corners, great color and registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375976800862

Make no mistake... The grading standards have changed by 2-3 full points over the past decade.

Totally agree here.

I think there is definitely an opportunity to capitalize on buying nice raw cards if you can score a deal and grade them.

As a collector with a more limited budget in mind, this has allowed me to pick up a few nicer copies of cards with an overall less price after grading compared to buying a card straight up.

That being said you definitely are hoping graders grade consistently which can be a problem.

I’m not the best at eyeballing cards, but I stick to the motto of, “what would be the worst grade this card could feasibly get” and use that to ballpark comps of raw cards + $15 for SGC grading

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by StraightRaceCards

I’m not the best at eyeballing cards, but I stick to the motto of, “what would be the worst grade this card could feasibly get” and use that to ballpark comps of raw cards + $15 for SGC grading

Close, but you’re missing a step:

“What would be the worst grade this card could feasibly get, **then subtract a full grade.**”

[StraightRaceCards]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Close, but you’re missing a step:

“What would be the worst grade this card could feasibly get, **then subtract a full grade.**”

Sad but probably right

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by StraightRaceCards

Totally agree here.

I think there is definitely an opportunity to capitalize on buying nice raw cards if you can score a deal and grade them.

As a collector with a more limited budget in mind, this has allowed me to pick up a few nicer copies of cards with an overall less price after grading compared to buying a card straight up.

That being said you definitely are hoping graders grade consistently which can be a problem.

I’m not the best at eyeballing cards, but I stick to the motto of, “what would be the worst grade this card could feasibly get” and use that to ballpark comps of raw cards + $15 for SGC grading

This is what I am seeing at recent shows. Dealers that are selling raw are capitalizing on this. Graded cards just seem to sit at shows.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Strongly disagree...

Yesterday's "4" (obvious creasing, paper loss, round corners, heavy soiling, dull color, poor registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/145235228744


Today's "4" (no creasing or wrinkles, no paper loss, no soiling, good corners, great color and registration):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/375976800862

Make no mistake... The grading standards have changed by 2-3 full points over the past decade.

Those are outlier examples and are in no way indicative of the average or standard for that grade, then or now. You can find images of 4s from 25 years ago that look just like your second example, and pictures of cards from today that look like your first one. I agree that grading has overall gotten a little harsher, it is not nearly as extreme as your outliers make it appear. Never use the exception to prove the rule.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Those are outlier examples and are in no way indicative of the average or standard for that grade, then or now. You can find images of 4s from 25 years ago that look just like your second example, and pictures of cards from today that look like your first one. I agree that grading has overall gotten a little harsher, it is not nearly as extreme as your outliers make it appear. Never use the exception to prove the rule.

Not outliers...

You are obviously a big fan of TPG, but it took me no time at all to find that egregious example. Could've found a bunch more that were equally ridiculous if I had the time. Even the biggest PSA apologist would admit the standards are a MINIMUM of 2 points different than a decade ago. PSA is lying (shocker) when they tell you it's not.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Not outliers...

You are obviously a big fan of TPG, but it took me no time at all to find that egregious example. Could've found a bunch more that were equally ridiculous if I had the time. Even the biggest PSA apologist would admit the standards are a MINIMUM of 2 points different than a decade ago. PSA is lying (shocker) when they tell you it's not.

LOL

Obviously.

As a matter of fact, I don't like grading, prefer my cards raw, and crack out nearly every graded card I own.

But obviously I'm a fan of grading. Nice observation, detective.