Should these 3 players be in the HOF

[BeanTown]

It takes 75 percent to make the Hall of Fame

[Jay Wolt]

Yes! To all 3

[theshowandme]

Yes

/end of thread

[mrreality68]

I would like to think yes to all three but I do not think it will happen.

Rose betting on his own teams is very very serious. Betting on other games bad but own team worse. Out of the three Rose should be last to go in if ever.

Bonds and Clemens tough call with their performance enhancing allegations but I am more likely to let them in because others have cheated or suspected of cheating and they are in the hall. Plus we put they put the commissioner in the HOF who oversaw the era and turned a blinds eye to it to make more money for the league.

[Seven]

Statistically speaking, they all should be.

Rose's suspension makes things a little bit tricky. I'm a firm believer that he had some sort of agreement with Giamatti before the commissioners sudden and untimely death, and that is what has ultimately held up his permanent ban from baseball.

Clemens and Bonds were both Hall of Famers before they even touched PED's. At this point, there are already people in the Hall that have either used or abused PED's, and I don't really like some of the writers "holier than thou" attitude.

[t206hof]

Yes on Rose. Never on the other two.

[BeanTown]

I say Rose for sure based on achievements while playing fair. The other two had amazing stats and became a bi product of the norm back in that ERA. Maybe a separate room at the HOF is needed, and we could also add Joe Jackson and a few others in there. So yes to all 3 for me.

[MR RAREBACK]

Yes
I would add
Sammy Sosa and
Albert belle

[Peter_Spaeth]

There's no good answer.

[icurnmedic]

All three are all time greats no matter how you choose.

Rose induction would open other conversations about others , namely Jackson.

Bonds and Clemens , were, as stated above, HOF before they used PED's. If you don't think they were playing against other PED users, whom may or may not be in the HOF, then I don't think there is a ounce of sense in you, but that may be just me.

That being said , I get both sides of the argument.
And as always some pretty good insight on the Net54.

[rats60]

Rose should be elected 50 years after Joe Jackson gets elected. Their crimes were similar, their punishments should be similar.

The other two never. They cheated to accumulate their statistics, so they are meaningless. They are not Hall of Famers.

[Kingcobb]

Yes to all 3. What Bonds did 2001 is incredible even using steroids. By the way not a Bonds fan.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by MR RAREBACK

Yes
I would add
Sammy Sosa and
Albert belle

And Manny Ramirez?

[trambo]

No to Rose and maybe to the others.

You can't bet on baseball when you're playing or managing baseball. Doing so overshadows any accolades done on the field. As for the other two, I'm glad they're both not in but if you decide that the PEDs taken aren't that big of a deal, there are quite a few others (Sosa, McGwire, Palmiero, etc) which should also get the nod.

[G1911]

No on Rose. Yes on Bonds and Clemens.

I don't really care if steroid guys are in or out, but the rule needs to be consistent. It is a corrupt joke that Ortiz, who failed a test, is in and these guys are out. The evidence against Clemens, unless I am forgetting something, is only 1 man's word, filled with inconsistency and conflicting claims made at different times, against his own. Keep them out or let them in, just don't let in the ones you like and blame the rest. There is no logical argument why Ortiz should be allowed in and everyone else banished except that people like him anyways. Cut the politics and privilege and at least try to make the Hall reasonable.

[darwinbulldog]

No to Rose who was filling out lineup cards and making pitching change decisions in games that he had money riding on. Yes to Bonds and Clemens who, like most of their opponents and most of the great players before them, were probably using the best performance-enhancing substances available at the time (and who were the two best players since Babe Ruth).

[GeoPoto]

I can't see putting Rose in while he is banned from baseball by baseball. Having said that, I think Manfred's position is petty, which seems to be that he was open to reinstating Rose, but only if Rose showed adequate contrition and life-style discipline. Rose, being Rose, failed to pass Manfred's test. I think Manfred should reinstate Rose for all the reasons that he was open to it in the first place, which surely includes that we have outlived the era when Rose's conduct was a threat to baseball. Then put the old man in the hall.

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[DPARK]

All three yes. Rose will probably get in posthumously

[obcbobd]

Over the years I've changed my mind on Bonds and Clemens and would vote for both.

Rose no

[pclpads]

Just a thot . . . wait till all three are deceased, then enshrine them. My suggestion is less controversial than enshrining them while they are still living. That's what the HOF did with Santo, who had no blemishes like these three. I guess his active HOF worthy stats got better after he retired and died.

[Beercan collector]

Originally Posted by 3arod13

And Manny Ramirez?

And Rafael Palmeiro
I don’t believe he belongs in the Hall of Fame But .. 569 home runs , over 3000 hits , A ridiculous amount of RBIs , tied for number eight all time extra-base hits , Also a great fielding first baseman (Three straight gold gloves and number 4 all time turning double plays at first base ) he seems to be the first one completely forgotten because of steroids

[JustinD]

For me, unquestionably.

It’s the hall of hame and these players hold some of the most hallowed records in baseball. It is demeaning to call it the hall of fame and not include the most famed of historical players.

That said, the writers are the most holiest of thou in existence and I hold little belief that until each has been many years dead that it happens if ever.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by t206hof

Yes on Rose. Never on the other two.

Ditto

[Bigdaddy]

No for Rose, and I'm a Reds fan. As of now, he can't even be on a ballot because he's banned from baseball. Personally though, I believe he committed the one crime that should get you banned for life - betting on the game, and specifically games he was involved in. What would be interesting to see is if Pete was reinstated, then he would be eligible to be on the ballot and then the voters would decide. As it stands, the voters have yet to weigh in.

As far as Barry and Roger, they were on the ballot but the voters kept them out (their prerogative). But I just can't square that up with Selig being voted in. As someone pointed out above, he was the commish during the whole steroids era, enabling it by turning a blind eye.

Bottom line, No on Rose, Yes on Barry and Roger.

PS, if anyone has seen recent photos of Rose, he is not looking so well.

[bmattioli]

Rose Definity the other two Roid players NEVER..

[refz]

I would like to see the 3 of these guys in, regardless of my opinion on the matter. They made the game exciting, posted hall numbers but blew it by being scumbags… err caught!!! I don’t see this happening anytime soon. That being said we are all in for a treat for the HOF to keep letting in the “Ben McDonalds & Mariano Duncan’s” as of lately.😉

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by 3arod13

And Manny Ramirez?

I say yes to Bonds and Clemens because you already have people in who used during their era. No one in their right mind thinks Ivan Rodriguez wasn't guilty. The man wouldn't even deny it himself, plus he showed more than anyone once testing kicked in and he came back to spring looking like a bobblehead. Plus he was called out by Canseco, plus he destroyed the games caught record while playing in the Texas heat and you don't think a drug that helps muscle recovery was involved? Yet he got in first ballot. Piazza admitted to using eight things that are illegal now in his book, conveniently none were steroids, yet he took everything else. Selig is in and he ran the era knowing what was going on. Baseball wasn't against it. Your favorite player was probably guilty of something, just like the guys from the 60s and 70s were all guilty of something that isn't allowed today.

I think you look at the era compared to itself and knock points off for it, such as McGwire. He's very fringe for me right now, but I wouldn't put him in due to knocking his stats to compensate for the drug use. Bonds and Clemens are an easy yes. I don't know how people vote for Andy Pettitte. He's very fringe with stats and flat out admitted doing steroids in two different years, yet he still gets votes to stay on the ballot.

I quote your question because this is where I draw the line. People who failed after testing started should not be allowed in, though I do have an asterisk that I would consider. That's a definite no for Ramirez because he failed multiple times.

The asterisk is Rafael Palmeiro. He failed, but I believe he was set up. The reason for that is very simple. He had everything he needed already. He had 3,000 hits, he had 500 homers, he announced he was retiring, he was playing on a team with no World Series hope near the end of the season. Who is just going to randomly do steroids in his position when he knows he's going to be tested? The answer is no one.

Palmeiro called out Miguel Tejada for what happened and then Tejada ends up getting caught with steroids and everything else to go with it.

As for Rose, I think he deserved a ban, but not lifetime. I'd put him in the HOF now. It's been long enough.

I also know I think different than other people about steroids. I see people willing to put in Todd Helton, who is a habitual drunk driver, yet they won't vote in Bonds or Clemens. Can you honestly tell me that a person doing steroids is worse than someone who is perfectly fine with taking the life of everyone on the road into his hands every time he drives his truck drunk, including the time he left the scene of an accident? If you think it is, you are probably a drunk driver yourself, so you're willing to defend it, and then I don't care about your worthless opinion.

Helton has no business being in the Hall of Fame, but of course he will go in next year because he got so close this year. Just remember one thing in case you have plans for Cooperstown in 2024. He's going to be on the road and celebrating that weekend...

[The Detroit Collector]

Yes to all three.
My prediction is Bonds and Clemons would be first.
Rose would be after he passes.

[Kzoo]

Just a random thought on Rose and this may have been discussed earlier/before.....was it ever determined if he was betting on his team to win or lose? ...or a combination of both?

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

Just a random thought on Rose and this may have been discussed earlier/before.....was it ever determined if he was betting on his team to win or lose? ...or a combination of both?

I remember reading that he only bet on his Reds to win

[oldjudge]

Yes for Rose, no for the others

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

I remember reading that he only bet on his Reds to win

So then he wasn't purposefully betting for his Reds to lose and/or intentionally making bad decisions during a game to achieve a loss. He should be in for his playing career achievements, no doubt.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

So then he wasn't purposefully betting for his Reds to lose and/or intentionally making bad decisions during a game to achieve a loss. He should be in for his playing career achievements, no doubt.

Rose maintained he never bet on baseball (until he needed to sell some books and then said that he in fact did, conceding the obvious). At the end of the investigation in 1989, Rose voluntarily agreed to accept the lifetime ban.

"THEREFORE, the Commissioner, recognizing the benefits to Baseball from a resolution of this matter, orders and directs that Peter Edward Rose be subject to the following disciplinary sanctions, and Peter Edward Rose, recognizing the sole and exclusive authority of the Commissioner and that it is in his interest to resolve this matter without further proceedings, agrees to accept the following disciplinary sanctions imposed by the Commissioner:
a. Peter Edward Rose is hereby declared permanently ineligible in accordance with Major League Rule 21 and placed on the Ineligible List."

It seems difficult to see why Rose would accept the ban and sign off on it, in exchange for "resolv[ing] this matter without further proceedings" unless there was something more that had not yet been shown in the Dowd report. If everything had been found at this point, he would have no reason to agree to the ban in exchange for quashing deeper investigation. A lifetime ban is the most that Major League Baseball could do to him; an effective plea deal where he gets the harshest possibly punishment in exchange for quashing further investigating has never made sense to me, unless there was something more to find. Perhaps that something more was that he had done it while a player too, which came out a few years ago. Perhaps it was something else. It seems to me that some pieces of this story remain a secret, and that the testimony of Pete Rose is completely worthless and changes with whatever benefits him most at the time the statement is given.

[ejharrington]

Yes, yes and yes. Also yes to McGuire, Sosa, Schilling, Hernandez, Ramirez, and Rodriguez.

[SyrNy1960]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

Yes, yes and yes. Also yes to McGuire, Sosa, Schilling, Hernandez, Ramirez, and Rodriguez.

I’ve always said, one gets in they all get in. Put an asterisk if need be. Can’t keep that era out!

[dealme]

Yes to Rose, no to the other two. Baseball is still a game that holds its numbers as sacred. Rose’s transgressions did not somehow artificially inflate his numbers. That can’t be said for Clemens and especially Bonds (who obviously holds arguably the two most well-known baseball records). At this point though, I’m not sure it matters as the Hall has become quite watered down in my opinion. I do enjoy hearing others’ opinions on this as the inclusion of these three is very polarizing.

Mark


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[RCMcKenzie]

They are 3 of the best players I've seen, along with Fred Lynn and Terry Puhl, Bob Horner, and Darryl Strawberry. I'm not a fan of the VIP access behind a velvet rope guy. The middling country club that won't let you wear jeans. More is better. They can put the negatives on the plaque.

[bbsports]

The answer to this question is an easy one and it's in one word, No, No, and No. Several years ago, I met Bob Feller at a card show in Florida. He showed me a paper about the qualifications to be a Hall of Famer. Besides the stats, which all these great baseball players have, is to be a member in good standing. Rose as you know bet on baseball and most likely his own team doesn't qualify and of course Clemens and Bonds bulked up from steroids so they would not qualify as well.

[RCMcKenzie]

I would vote no on Rose as a manager. He ragged out his bullpen. He was not a HOF manager. Dale Murphy, by all accounts, was a super nice guy. Why is he not in the HOF?

[donmuth]

Definite yes for Rose.

Equally definite No's for Bonds and Clemens.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by dealme

Rose’s transgressions did not somehow artificially inflate his numbers. That can’t be said for Clemens and especially Bonds (who obviously holds arguably the two most well-known baseball records). I do enjoy hearing others’ opinions on this as the inclusion of these three is very polarizing.

Mark

I agree, however what Rose did called into question the integrity of the game itself, that players and managers may have other motivations than to win a game. And be susceptible by outside interests (the gambling establishment). Comish Landis recognized this threat to the game during the Black Sox scandal.

Say what you will about Bonds, Clemens and the other users, but what they did still fell in line with trying to win ballgames. Not so different than throwing spitballs or corking bats.

I don't like the gambling or the steroid use, but I just can't lump them together and treat them the same.

[Jewish-collector]

This is one of those questions that will go on forever, until the end of time til time itself comes to any end.

[bnorth]

No way in hell for Rose. Clemens and Bonds belong in the HOF.

[ValKehl]

NO for all three!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

So then he wasn't purposefully betting for his Reds to lose and/or intentionally making bad decisions during a game to achieve a loss. He should be in for his playing career achievements, no doubt.

It's late in the year and you take your team into Pittsburgh for a 3-game series. Your bullpen has a few tired arms, your starters are nursing a few minor injuries. You're the manager of your club - in complete control over who will play, and when. And then you bet on your team to win the 3rd game of the series, but you don't bet on your team (or the other team) to win the first or second game.

See the conflict of interest? Will you use your top reliever in the 2nd game, or save him for the game you're betting on? Will you rest up a starter in one of the first 2 games to get him fresh for game 3?

And think of the blackmail possibilities you're creating against yourself. A bookie, who has records of your bets placed, drops a hint that he might spill the beans and blow the whole story (and Rose's career) wide open unless Larkin gets the day off on a certain day.....

Rose is a student of the game. He knew the fundamental, #1 rule of baseball: Don't bet on games. He knew 8 guys were expelled from the game for gambling, including a certain HOFer. Rose knew, and he did it anyway. He made his choice.

[SteveMitchell]

Originally Posted by bbsports

The answer to this question is an easy one and it's in one word, No, No, and No. Several years ago, I met Bob Feller at a card show in Florida. He showed me a paper about the qualifications to be a Hall of Famer. Besides the stats, which all these great baseball players have, is to be a member in good standing. Rose as you know bet on baseball and most likely his own team doesn't qualify and of course Clemens and Bonds bulked up from steroids so they would not qualify as well.

BBSPORTS said it very well in quoting one great American, war hero and pitcher, Robert William Andrew Feller. Thanks, BBSPORTS!

[3-2-count]

Yes on all 3.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by bbsports

The answer to this question is an easy one and it's in one word, No, No, and No. Several years ago, I met Bob Feller at a card show in Florida. He showed me a paper about the qualifications to be a Hall of Famer. Besides the stats, which all these great baseball players have, is to be a member in good standing. Rose as you know bet on baseball and most likely his own team doesn't qualify and of course Clemens and Bonds bulked up from steroids so they would not qualify as well.

According to MLB, Rose is on the Ineligible List. Therefore according to the HOF, he is not eligible for election.

Bonds, Clemens and all the other 'roid users though have had no such directive issued to them by MLB. So I guess, officially, they are in good standing.

[NYYFan63]

Bonds & Clemens YES
Rose No


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[Steve D]

Yes on all three!


Steve