Messi and Ronaldo

[Peter_Spaeth]

Two generational players, of the same generation. Hard to imagine when all is said and done they are not both in the top 5 of all time.

[ClementeFanOh]

PeterSpaeth-

1) Nice cards!

2) Messi "top 5 of all time"? Yes. Ronaldo? Not so much. As a pure volume
scorer, yes. In many other areas, though, he is a liability, which many
other greats (Pele, Maradona, Messi, Cruyff, Ronaldinho, I could go on)
were not. Passing? Meh. Defense? Nope. Teamwork? Give me a
break. Best American comparison (major sport) I can think of in the
moment is Kobe Bryant- a totally self-absorbed prima donna. Never seen
a soccer player throw so many on-field tantrums when one of his own
teammates scores (because he wasn't the center of attention). Also
obsessed in real time because another player (Jordan for Bryant, Messi
for Ronaldo) was considered better by so many. Pure talent alone gets
him in the conversation, but he's not on my Mount Everest of the sport.
There are many players I'd rather watch than Ronaldo (including the real
Ronaldo). Ronaldo is undoubtedly an exciting player with a legion of fans,
but pump the brakes on Top 5 all time.

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Trent you make good points and the analogy to Kobe is interesting. But in soccer, where so few goals are scored, scoring is of such paramount importance, no? Would you at least rank him top 10?

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- Interesting question. Naturally there is a premium on goals scored,
just as there is a premium on TDs scored in football (it's worth
remembering as a side note that a 21-14 football game is actually a 3-2
game). As is the case with football, however, a LOT has to happen in soccer
before the glory guy scores the goal. The players I prefer are the ones who
do a bunch of things well on the field: for example, weaving the ball down
the field past defenders, placing perfectly weighted passes to teammates to
their advantage, and actually playing defense/caring about the win rather
than individual stats. The comment I made about Ronaldo openly pouting
when a teammate scores was not exaggeration, he's been caught on camera
doing it. He has been a chronically selfish player for 15+ years.

I like to use an example of a team I don't care for as a fan, Real Madrid. In
the late 1990s/early 2000s the team bought "Galacticos", a nickname for
extremely expensive internationals- players like David Beckham, Luis Figo,
Zinedine Zidane, Luis Figo, Michael Owen. These were huge stars who
grabbed the public's attention. Even these players would acknowledge,
however, that defensive midfielder Makelele (most people don't even know
him) was the team's most valuable player.

I guess I prefer a more well rounded player, both to watch and (certainly)
for "Mount Rushmore" status. Dennis Bergkamp was often called "the
perfect forward". Currently, although I loathe Madrid, Karim Benzema is a
flat assassin inside the 18 box. Don't get me wrong, Ronaldo has scored a
ton of goals- he just simply displayed little to no interest in major parts of
the game and actually struggled at World Cup in his prime years.

I may be an outlier here, but I'd say no to top 10. Then again, maybe I'm
not. I can tell you I've seen a LOT of players who I'd rather have on my
team.

Thanks for asking, Trent King

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- I mentioned Luis Figo twice in the above message, when discussing
the Galacticos of Real Madrid. I must have thought he was doubly great, lol

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Trent, again good points, although I would say I have seen an awful lot of goals which were mostly the result of individual skill and not really a team effort, and as you know Ronaldo is superb at manufacturing goals. In any case, it is all ultimately objective and makes for a good discussion. Incidentally who do you rate as the best, Pele or Maradona (assuming those are your top two_?

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- outside of penalty kicks, I have seen exactly goal (at the pro level)
that was entirely self generated over the past 35+ years. That would be
Maradona's "other" goal in the infamous "Hand of God" game versus
England in the World Cup. The goal I referenced has been voted "Goal of the
Century", and Maradona truly was a one-man gang for it. I've never seen
Ronaldo do anything like that. Despite his high opinion of himself and a ton
of press praising him, Cristiano has had a lot of help over the years (as did
Maradona). Some of his Man United and Real Madrid squads were loaded,
teams could not focus on stopping him exclusively like they would
Maradona (or, if they did, they would pay).

These "best ever" questions almost always go astray for a number of
reasons. Pele and Maradona played different positions, for one thing. Pele
was a monster goal scorer- best ever- who was often surrounded in W Cup
with other killer players. I am too young to have watched any of those
matches, but I love his play in brief captures and think he is magisterial. The
single most exciting player I ever watched was Maradona. He was like a
tornado, blowing around and scaring the daylights out of opponents. Rough
play was normalized in his era, players would try to hurt him and punch him
like boxers out of frustration. I also enjoyed watching Ronaldinho, Messi,
Bergkamp offensively, more so than Ronaldo. Defense is an altogether
different conversation naturally. The short answer is I don't feel qualified to
answer and I don't think there's a wrong one between those two.

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Trent do you know the scene in Visionquest about Pele?

By the way I think if you slow down that unreal Maradona goal he only touches the ball with his right foot. The whole thing was absurd. But yes, I wasn't suggesting many goals are guys dribbling half the field alone and then shooting, but there are still lots of goals IMO that are predominantly individual efforts. Matter of degree.

I missed a chance to see Maradona in the late 89s. Stupid.

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- I am enough of a soccer "nerd" to know that movie scene, yes. Chilling
and nail on the head!

I guess I'll close by saying that players like Pele, Maradona, Messi fit that
movie scene more than Ronaldo does. I'm just a guy with an opinion, but I
have watched a ton of soccer and am more than a causal fan.

Here's one back at you. If you want to see a goal that leaves your jaw
falling open, do an internet search for "Dennis Bergkamp best goal- Arsenal
and Newcastle". It's a 30 second clip and is ASTONISHING! Did you know
that some of his teammates used to bet with each other regarding how many
days (!) Bergkamp would go in practice, without making a mistake in a drill?

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

I know the Bergkamp goal very well. He has quite a few highlight reel goals truly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsZkCFoqSBs

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- yes he does, he was a master. Did you know that his teammates
nicknamed him "The Non Flying Dutchman" because he feared plane travel?

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL.
The goal against Argentina was remarkable, if you watch it in slow motion the control is unreal. Of course it's also set up by a fabulous pass.

A different Ronaldo (Luís Nazário de Lima) from Brazil a cut out in a Topo Gigio Comic Book that I got in Italy on vacation visiting family in 1999

[mart8081]

Firmly in the Messi camp for the main argument in this thread.

For great goals I think Luc Nilis has possibly the greatest overall collection of them. I know he competed mainly in Holland and Belgium but these are simply staggering in their type - power, precision, dead-ball, dribbling, volley, half-volley and ridiculous angles.

Enjoy
https://youtu.be/d2bXorn1Rcg

[Peter_Spaeth]

Eden Hazard is a highlight film as well.

[ClementeFanOh]

Yes gents, the real Ronaldo (above) was a beast. Nesta from Italy was not
shabby either. Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Yes gents, the real Ronaldo (above) was a beast. Nesta from Italy was not
shabby either. Trent King

I read that Pele ranked Ronaldo in his top 12. Then again, he had Cristiano there too.