ROGER MARIS vs AARON JUDGE

[gonefishin]

Again, Roger's 61 home run record is coming under attack from a legitimate contender - Aaron Judge. Will it hold up or will it fall to the mighty Judge? I have always loved Roger Maris. If you haven't watched the movie "61", please do so.

With that said, let's see some photo's of your Roger Maris cards. I know everyone has at least one, and maybe several. Here is mine, fresh back from PSA to match my 58 Mantle. Remember the M&M boys of summer?

[packs]

Here's my Roger, the true home run king (for now):

[Cliff Bowman]

At least Judge will be legit unlike the other three.

[ALR-bishop]

After coming over from the dark side

[gonefishin]

Thanks - the photo on his 67 always made me feel a little sorry for Roger - I don't know why.

[ALR-bishop]

He made the Series in 67 and 68 and scored a Budweiser distributorship on retirement so the trade worked out well for him. He almost retired rather than play in 67

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrF...cPtZuiAD5i7fM-

But cancer at 51

[Mutton Chop Yaz]

He looks deeply melancholy on nearly every one of his cards.

[gonefishin]

He looks sad on most all of his cards.

It looks like his record is going to survive another year - we will see.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

He looks sad on most all of his cards.

It looks like his record is going to survive another year - we will see.

Yeah, I thought when Stanton came back from his injury he'd give Judge some protection in the lineup so they can't pitch around him as much...but he's been trash, along with the rest of the lineup for awhile now.

As a cynical Yankee fan, I see a bunch of bad trades in tandem with the injury bug finally hitting them in the 2nd half of the year, not boding well for the playoffs.

[Seven]

Makes you feel bad for Roger Maris, the more you learn about his story. His hair was falling out from the stress of the record, plus the fact that most people wanted Mantle to break it rather than him. The press hounded him, people bothered his family. I think that stress really stayed with him afterwards. He was productive following 61 for a few seasons but nowhere near the player he was in 60 or 61. Didn't help the injury bug caught him.

[packs]

I'd say took its toll doesn't go far enough. Take a look at Roger on my 65 Topps card. He's only 29 in that photo.

[invest]

Here is my only Roger Maris card!

Troy

[gonefishin]

I agree with everything that was said. Let's take a quick look at Roger's accomplishments and question should he be in the Hall of Fame. If you look at some of the recent inductees, such as Ted Simmons (no offense), it makes one question why?

x7 All Star
x3 World Series Championship Teams
x2 AL MVP
x1 Home Run Leader
x2 RBI Leader
.260 Batting Average
275 Home Runs
850 RBIs

In addition, he was a gentleman representative of the game, put up with a lot of bull shit, and sold a hell of a lot of tickets.

There are definitely a lot of players in the Hall that have accomplished less.

[gonefishin]

Originally Posted by invest

Here is my only Roger Maris card!

Troy

Forgot to add - I LOVE THE CARD! Now I'm envious with my 6!

[Seven]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

I agree with everything that was said. Let's take a quick look at Roger's accomplishments and question should he be in the Hall of Fame. If you look at some of the recent inductees, such as Ted Simmons (no offense), it makes one question why?

x7 All Star
x3 World Series Championship Teams
x2 AL MVP
x1 Home Run Leader
x2 RBI Leader
.260 Batting Average
275 Home Runs
850 RBIs

In addition, he was a gentleman representative of the game, put up with a lot of bull shit, and sold a hell of a lot of tickets.

There are definitely a lot of players in the Hall that have accomplished less.

I don't disagree, he's certainly accomplished more than some Hall of Fame guys, I'm traditionally a "Small Hall" believer. I think it should be much more exclusive than it actually is. That ship sailed though once the cronyism of the original veterans committee started to occur.

[packs]

I think there's already a kind of precedent for his inclusion.

Hack Wilson is a HOFer. He had an out of this world season when he drove in 191 runs. Otherwise he played more incomplete seasons than complete ones and lingered around for 4 more seasons after his monster year. I don't think there is an argument to made for his HOF status without his world beater season.

Was Maris' 1961 all that different? Hitting 61 home runs was a huge deal then and remains a huge deal now. Maris did it.

This is not to say that I think Maris and Wilson have all that much in common from a numbers perspective. But I believe the magnitude of each of their signature seasons is equal. They did finish their careers with roughly the same WAR, though Wilson has better counting stats.

Wilson had another career year just prior to his 191 rbi season. Maris won the MVP in 1960 before his 61 season. There are some parallels there.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Seven

I don't disagree, he's certainly accomplished more than some Hall of Fame guys, I'm traditionally a "Small Hall" believer. I think it should be much more exclusive than it actually is. That ship sailed though once the cronyism of the original veterans committee started to occur.

Nothing wrong with being in the top TWO Percent of the top level in the world, but he, just like many others constantly discussed, is not in the ONE percent.


IMO- the constant disclaimer.
.

[G1911]

Maris would be elected basically entirely on the strength of his home run hitting. Of which he has 275. We would need to elect a couple hundred more guys before it's watered down this far.

Hack Wilson was a mistake and his closest comparison in the Hall.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Maris would be elected basically entirely on the strength of his home run hitting. Of which he has 275. We would need to elect a couple hundred more guys before it's watered down this far.

Hack Wilson was a mistake and his closest comparison in the Hall.

He should not even be mentioned in a HOF discussion, really. Not to take away from the record or his other few nice years.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by G1911

Maris would be elected basically entirely on the strength of his home run hitting. Of which he has 275. We would need to elect a couple hundred more guys before it's watered down this far.

Hack Wilson was a mistake and his closest comparison in the Hall.

Hack Wilson hit . 307/.395/.545 OPS+ 144
Roger Maris hit . 260/.345/.476 OPS+ 127

The comparison isn't close other than they each played only 12 seasons.

[packs]

There are similarities between their careers. I brought up Wilson because I don't think he's in the HOF without his monster record setting season. I would put Maris in for the same reason.

I don't think either had the career that would otherwise make them candidates. But one did get enshrined.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

There are similarities between their careers. I brought up Wilson because I don't think he's in the HOF without his monster record setting season. I would put Maris in for the same reason.

I don't think either had the career that would otherwise make them candidates. But one did get enshrined.

Would you put Denny McLain in?

[packs]

No. 30 wins is a definite accomplishment but it's not 61 home runs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The 10 year minimum clearly shows the intent of the Hall is to honor careers. I can't see putting someone in for one year no matter how remarkable.

[packs]

I guess I'm looking at it like this. To throw another guy's name out there; I think if Babe Herman got a few extra hits and ends up hitting 400 in 1930 instead of 393, he's a HOFer today too.

Lefty O'Doul as well in 1929. Two percentage points from immortality, at least in my opinion.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I guess I'm looking at it like this. To throw another guy's name out there; I think if Babe Herman got a few extra hits and ends up hitting 400 in 1930 instead of 393, he's a HOFer today too.

Lefty O'Doul as well in 1929. Two percentage points from immortality, at least in my opinion.

At 25, 38 and 39 WAR, I am just not seeing it.

[packs]

The only player to hit 400 after 1900 and not be elected to the HOF is Joe Jackson.

If either player hit 400 I think the ticket was punched. It's that big of an accomplishment in the game.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

The only player to hit 400 after 1900 and not be elected to the HOF is Joe Jackson.

If either player hit 400 I think the ticket was punched. It's that big of an accomplishment in the game.

How many pitchers have won 30 since 1933?

[packs]

But it's not the same milestone. I know you're looking for a comp for pitchers but it's not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

But it's not the same milestone. I know you're looking for a comp for pitchers but it's not.

I was young but it sure seemed to be a huge deal in 1968.

[packs]

It's exciting, sure, but that's it. There's a discussion about wins and their relative importance all the time. Bob Welch won 27 games one year too.

A guy hitting 400 or 61 homers is on them entirely to do.

If a pitcher strikes out 400 batters in a single season I will say put that guy in too.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

It's exciting, sure, but that's it. There's a discussion about wins and their relative importance all the time. Bob Welch won 27 games one year too.

A guy hitting 400 or 61 homers is on them entirely to do.

If a pitcher strikes out 400 batters in a single season I will say put that guy in too.

I guess for me bottom line is I would not put anyone in based on one year no matter what he accomplished. Celebrate it with a display.

[packs]

I think that's fair. It's most people's opinion or he'd be in.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Speaking of Maris, always loved this picture.

[G1911]

Hack Wilson probably wouldn’t have made it without his record setting season.

No one advocating Maris would be advocating Maris if he hit 59 that year.

Wilson is a good comparison here. The takeaway is that Wilson was a mistake, but the comparison makes clear sense to me. He’s probably the most blatant example of a hitter riding in based on an annual achievement more than his career. His career produced good rate stats but is far too short otherwise.

[bobsbbcards]

I’m sure there’s some mention of Maris’ feat in Cooperstown. It ranks up there with every other OMG season that’s been achieved by a better-than-average player, but that isn’t enough to get someone’s entire career enshrined with a plaque (IMHO).

[packs]

What about Jack Chesbro on the pitching side? His claim to fame is his insane 41 win season. Outside of his 41 win season his career is pretty mild compared to his contemporaries. Not even 200 wins. A 110 ERA+.

Hard to see him getting any serious consideration or induction without his single out of this world season on the mound. His 41 win season accounted for more than 20% of his total career wins.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

What about Jack Chesbro on the pitching side? His claim to fame is his insane 41 win season. Outside of his 41 win season his career is pretty mild compared to his contemporaries. Not even 200 wins. A 110 ERA+.

Hard to see him getting any serious consideration or induction without his single out of this world season on the mound. His 41 win season accounted for more than 20% of his total career wins.

I would say same category. Like Hack (who held 4 home run crowns) and Roger (who won another MVP) he wasn’t a one trick pony, he had other star seasons like 1901, 1902 and 1905, but without that one marquee year he wouldn’t be sniffing Cooperstown.

Dizzy Dean is close to this. He was great for 3 or 4 years. Take 1 of them out and they probably couldn’t have justified him. He’s pushing it as is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

What about Jack Chesbro on the pitching side? His claim to fame is his insane 41 win season. Outside of his 41 win season his career is pretty mild compared to his contemporaries. Not even 200 wins. A 110 ERA+.

Hard to see him getting any serious consideration or induction without his single out of this world season on the mound. His 41 win season accounted for more than 20% of his total career wins.

Ed Walsh won fewer than 200 as well.

[packs]

I guess I'm pointing these players out because I think Roger's exclusion boils down to BS.

Hitting 61 home runs and setting the single season home run mark was a legendary feat, far greater in the context of baseball than driving in the most runs or winning 40 games as a pitcher. Yet he has been chosen for exclusion and I would say it's mostly because his chase didn't make him a popular guy. People actively rooted against him. Sent him death threats. Wanted him to fail.

I would put it out there that Roger Maris is a casualty of circumstance in that he was after Babe Ruth, the one guy you don't show up.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I guess I'm pointing these players out because I think Roger's exclusion boils down to BS.

Hitting 61 home runs and setting the single season home run mark was a legendary feat, far greater in the context of baseball than driving in the most runs or winning 40 games as a pitcher. Yet he has been chosen for exclusion and I would say it's mostly because his chase didn't make him a popular guy. People actively rooted against him. Sent him death threats. Wanted him to fail.

I would put it out there that Roger Maris is a casualty of circumstance in that he was after Babe Ruth, the one guy you don't show up.

Deep into the 61 season Mantle was still very much in the chase. I was not yet aware of baseball, were people rooting against him too?

[Gr8Beldini]

Lets not be too quick with that "legitimate contender" stuff. The Yankees recent history of circumventing the rules makes me want to hesitate a moment before anointing any of them as legitimate. Based on what I know about the guy, I like him fine, but remember, this guy is in a walk year.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Deep into the 61 season Mantle was still very much in the chase. I was not yet aware of baseball, were people rooting against him too?

Not to the same degree. Mantle was the hometown hero. He'd been on the Yankees for a decade already. Maris had just gotten there and despite winning MVP, I don't hear too many people talk about Maris as their favorite Yankee.

To further demonstrate how much the house stacked against Maris and wanted to down play everything about what he was doing, the commissioner actually released a statement right around the all star break that down played any accomplishment associated with a potential home run chase unless it was done in 154 games.

For whatever reason, the public, the press, even the commissioner of baseball, was against Roger Maris in every way.

I think a common opinion expressed in the press at the time was something along the lines of "if someone's going to break Ruth's record, it should be Mantle."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Not to the same degree. Mantle was the hometown hero. He'd been on the Yankees for a decade already. Maris had just gotten there and despite winning MVP, I don't hear too many people talk about Maris as their favorite Yankee.

To further demonstrate how much the house stacked against Maris and wanted to down play everything about what he was doing, the commissioner actually released a statement right around the all star break that down played any accomplishment associated with a potential home run chase unless it was done in 154 games.

For whatever reason, the public, the press, even the commissioner of baseball, was against Roger Maris in every way.

I think a common opinion expressed in the press at the time was something along the lines of "if someone's going to break Ruth's record, it should be Mantle."

Imagine what Henry Aaron went through. Maris, at least, was white.

[gonefishin]

It is very interesting and educational as I read all the comments on Maris' HoF induction pros and cons. I get it that not everyone thinks he should be enshrined. Maybe the Yankees retiring #9 was enough.

What about Aaron Judge breaking the record? Any comments?

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Imagine what Henry Aaron went through. Maris, at least, was white.

Oh, for sure, but it also helped that Hank was already a legend by the time he got to 715. There was no denying his career or place in the game. But I have no doubt it was a deeply disturbing period of his life.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Oh, for sure, but it also helped that Hank was already a legend by the time he got to 715. There was no denying his career or place in the game. But I have no doubt it was a deeply disturbing period of his life.

More than 25 years after Jackie Robinson, apparently he was getting stacks of hate mail daily, and not infrequent death threats. If it had been as easy as posting online back then, the volume probably would have been 100 times greater.

[packs]

The video of Hank rounding the bases with the two fans at his side is an incredible moment not just for sports but also for the time. I'm sure Hank had no greater fear than some maniac doing something crazy at the ballpark and to see him instantly recognize the moment he was in when those fans approached him is inspiring.

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://fanbuzz.com/mlb/hank-aaron-715/

[packs]

It could have gone very differently. I'm sure Reggie hasn't thought about the people he mowed down after the 77 series once.