OT: 3.5 Million Dollar Scam - Pokemon Cards Certified by BBCE

[Buythatcard]

Check out this video. Guy bought a case of Pokemon cards for 3.5 million which was certified by BBCE.

Turns out to be a scam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8lmQ5Ls6bw

[25801wv]

This would make me worried if I had high dollar unopened boxes that are BBCE wrapped. If he can’t authenticate it, then who can?

[ALBB]

maybe...but cant help that it looks a little staged ??

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by ALBB

maybe...but cant help that it looks a little staged ??

There's no way BBCE Steve would have agreed to play a role if the whole thing was really staged. Steve is a 110% straight up guy!

[vintagetoppsguy]

BBCE has been involved in a number of scandals over the years, people just chose to turn a blind eye and not talk about it. As long as it's shrink wrapped with a BBCE label, what does it matter what's inside, right? Kinda like PSA and all the altered cards they slabbed that were brought to light a couple of years ago. It's not what's on the inside that counts; it's the authenticator's seal that gives it its value.

[Eric72]

I get the feeling this will send ripples throughout the hobby. Either BBCE made a multi-million dollar mistake or someone is trying to make it look like they were the victim of multi-million dollar fraud.

[chriskim]

Originally Posted by 25801wv

This would make me worried if I had high dollar unopened boxes that are BBCE wrapped. If he can’t authenticate it, then who can?

I think unopened boxes are fine. People should worry about those UD Esq unopened cases (3 hobby boxes) that might pull LeBron RPA and sold for $1M. Those cases suddenly swim out from no where one by one and we have seen 3 so far on Goldin. The next one in line would be the 86 Fleer case that sold last yr but it has solid evidence of where it came from, so not much of an issue.

[maniac_73]

Originally Posted by ALBB

maybe...but cant help that it looks a little staged ??

Definitely not staged. I’ve been following this one for a while and after Logan bought it a lot of ppl on the internet started questioning what they were seeing on the boxes. Steve had no experience with Pokémon he should not have authenticated this box.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[shagrotn77]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I get the feeling this will send ripples throughout the hobby. Either BBCE made a multi-million dollar mistake or someone is trying to make it look like they were the victim of multi-million dollar fraud.

Given all that's occurred and been forgotten about over the years, I'm quite certain nothing will ever send ripples throughout the hobby. It's apparently bulletproof.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Two threads going at once on this.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Unopened material has always been a crap shoot. I believe the best way to invest in any sports card is to 1) research the characteristics of the original card, and 2) buy commons from the same set, if possible, and examine them closely. This later step, buying commons, is immensely helpful. I’d personally never buy unopened material.

[RCFire82]

GI Joe's are cooler than Pokémon anyways.

[Brian Van Horn]

Pokemon Pandemonium. Nah, for a blogger site. Probably already taken and I have never gotten into that.

[Lorewalker]

Don't know a lot about the back story but Jake and Logan Paul are well known for publicity stunts for the sake of their adoring viewers who pay them millions a year for their social media content. That video seemed staged, overacted and highly produced. It is typical of the Paul brothers to do what seems like outlandish stuff for page views.

Prior to his "paying" 3.5 million for the case it sold months before for 75K...on ebay. It was said it only went for around 75K because those who collect Pokemon knew the case was not good. I highly doubt that Steve Hart was in on this video. It does appear that he simply relied on his knowledge of methods of sealing and what to look for as opposed to irregularities on the case which the Pokemon community was aware of.

Here is the background info on it...https://www.pokebeach.com/2021/12/lo...icant-evidence

[Santo10Fan]

Originally Posted by maniac_73

Definitely not staged. I’ve been following this one for a while and after Logan bought it a lot of ppl on the internet started questioning what they were seeing on the boxes. Steve had no experience with Pokémon he should not have authenticated this box.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have to agree. Logan is not a fourth dimensional chess player. Frankly, he trusted an authenticator many of us on Net54 also trust. But it's not that simple.

LP got ripped off because he didn't do his homework and also trusted some chump middlemen who had him marked. The chain of custody on the fugazi item is surprisingly clear and the original auction was for suckers only. So many red flags. That video is likely earning him $15K+ per day this week as long as it stays a top trending. So there's no way LP or his lawyers would let him risk owing Steve Hart millions in a lawsuit over it, negating any revenue from the content.

Steve really looks bad here and if he was branching out, it's clear he spread himself too thin. The only good news is that it was not a Topps/Fleer/etc vintage product. Hardly anyone on this site gives a crap about Pokemon product but people here have invested (or are invested) in Steve's reputation with sports cards.

[swarmee]

To the people making some inferences that this ordeal is a dramatic ruse, READ MORE THREADS. This has been going on for 2 years. I've been following it from the beginning, because the original flipper, meelypops has a store in Gainesville FL and I've seen him post about the original purchase in early 2020.

Steve tried to authenticate out of his knowledge base, was challenged by real experts in that specific field, and was exposed for certifying a fake. It's that easy. Don't build up straw men to try to explain it away. It happened.

You think this meelypops guy would make long videos about how he first purchased the case in Canada and then took it straight to BBCE for their blessing if he knew it was fraudulent? Because people normally play a long con where they incriminate themselves with million hit videos? Nope. He thought it was a true purchase of an undiscovered gem, and was burned along with Steve.
Will be interesting to see if anything happens with the original Canadian seller, who has a history of faking these types of items. Would require the Canadian authorities to intervene.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1500649

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1500869

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...m-pokeman-case

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...n-case-updates

[mrreality68]

Update he got his money back see below link

https://www.ladbible.com/entertainme...20114.amp.html

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Steve tried to authenticate out of his knowledge base, was challenged by real experts in that specific field, and was exposed for certifying a fake. It's that easy.[/URL]

This was my first thought as well but, after watching the video again, it's actually not that easy. Please listen to what I have to say objectively. If you will, you’ll realize it’s a lot more than that. I have used bold font for Steve’s exact words.

Steve says this is “What I looked for” as he begins to give his reasons for authenticating the case. ”This tape is aged onto this case. This label too. The same embedded lines of the cardboard from age are in that label.”

Someone starts to ask a question, “There’s no evidence of tampering…" (is interrupted by Steve) “One edge would look different” (finishes the question) "...in any way shape or form?”

Steve says, “I did my diligence just like I do for a sports case.” This is the part that I have a problem with. Yes, we can agree that the product was out of his knowledge base. But the way he examined the product was the same way he’s going to examine any unopened case (the product inside is irrelevant). He said the tape was aged onto the case. Well, obviously it wasn’t because it had been re-taped. So if he doesn’t know how to tell if tape is actually aged onto a case or not, how many cases has he authenticated that were tampered with? How many wax boxes has he authenticated that were supposedly FASC (from a sealed case)? It doesn’t matter if he’s authenticating a case of 1985 Topps or 2000 (or whatever the year is) Pokemon, the methods for authentication are still the same - he admits that.

Y'all can defend him if it makes you feel better about the situation, but he blew it and it didn’t have anything to do with the product he was examining. It had everything to do with his examination methods.

[Exhibitman]

All I can say after watching that is that Hart and his colleague need to seriously consider salads.

[bird_man_sportscards]

Anybody who has BBCE stuff is just hosed but honestly you should know better. It looks like the label has wear and the tape is perfect ...lol

This is like pawn stars ....I am sorry the sheep followed and walked into a black hole.

[Johnny630]

This will blow over like every other hobby scandal this industry has faced, it’s no big deal in the grand scheme of things. His brand will only gain more acceptance and sell stronger and stronger. Everyone’s cards and unopened boxes will only go up in-value. Any short term decline which there won’t be any will be a massive buying opportunity!

[ullmandds]

I also feel sad for the Pokémon community!

[wolf441]

Am I the only one impatiently waiting for Logan and Jake's 15 minutes to be up?

I blame the Kardashians for starting all of this stupid sh*t. No wonder China owns half of America.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by wolf441

Am I the only one impatiently waiting for Logan and Jake's 15 minutes to be up?

I blame the Kardashians for starting all of this stupid sh*t. No wonder China owns half of America.

its gonna be a while sadly...apparently hes the future of ufc.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

its gonna be a while sadly...apparently hes the future of ufc.

Jake is actually a decent fighter. Speaking of Jake and Paul, this was just posted on Yahoo...
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/m...164818939.html

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Steve says, “I did my diligence just like I do for a sports case.” This is the part that I have a problem with. Yes, we can agree that the product was out of his knowledge base. But the way he examined the product was the same way he’s going to examine any unopened case (the product inside is irrelevant).

The reason I wrote what I did is that the product label was inconsistent with other actual 1st edition cases. I expect Steve has a database of examples of many or all the various Topps/Fleer/etc boxes and cases that his company chooses to authenticate. And just like an autograph authenticator, would verify that the product number/code/printing style/font are consistent with known examples.

There is not another known 1st Edition '99 base set case (opened or unopened), as far as what has been revealed, that used the '1E' at the end of the product code, and the '1E' was not embedded in the bar code. Also, it seems some of the spacing of the words were different than real examples. If Steve was going to authenticate the "only known" unopened case valued at $3 million at the time, these are things he should have been doing.
I have said on the other board that he should have passed on authenticating the box, because he didn't know what the box was supposed to look like.

Similarly, there are many cards that PSA should refuse to authenticate that they still choose to, despite not having the background information needed to confirm are unaltered compared to how they were packed out. Many chrome autographed cards have been wiped off due to streaking/fading and either the player has signed them again or a forger has signed them. VERY FEW of any chrome cards that PSA grades need to be authenticated that they were factory original autographs. Same with embedded patches / patch swapping. PSA/BGS etc only confirm the card itself is real, not that the piece of material in the card is the one that was embedded with. Because the 3rd party graders are incompetent or unwilling to consider those as being faked, it calls into question all of their authenticated auto and patch cards.

Here's one that's currently being challenged at Goldin:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1502551 Card was graded about 5 years ago based on cert number.

Here's a good thread on patch swapping:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...light=swapping There's a nearly 200 page thread on LeBron cards in the same baskeball forum.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by swarmee

The reason I wrote what I did is that the product label was inconsistent with other actual 1st edition cases. I expect Steve has a database of examples of many or all the various Topps/Fleer/etc boxes and cases that his company chooses to authenticate. And just like an autograph authenticator, would verify that the product number/code/printing style/font are consistent with known examples.

There is not another known 1st Edition '99 base set case (opened or unopened), as far as what has been revealed, that used the '1E' at the end of the product code, and the '1E' was not embedded in the bar code. Also, it seems some of the spacing of the words were different than real examples. If Steve was going to authenticate the "only known" unopened case valued at $3 million at the time, these are things he should have been doing.
I have said on the other board that he should have passed on authenticating the box, because he didn't know what the box was supposed to look like.

Similarly, there are many cards that PSA should refuse to authenticate that they still choose to, despite not having the background information needed to confirm are unaltered compared to how they were packed out. Many chrome autographed cards have been wiped off due to streaking/fading and either the player has signed them again or a forger has signed them. VERY FEW of any chrome cards that PSA grades need to be authenticated that they were factory original autographs. Same with embedded patches / patch swapping. PSA/BGS etc only confirm the card itself is real, not that the piece of material in the card is the one that was embedded with. Because the 3rd party graders are incompetent or unwilling to consider those as being faked, it calls into question all of their authenticated auto and patch cards.

Here's one that's currently being challenged at Goldin:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1502551 Card was graded about 5 years ago based on cert number.

Here's a good thread on patch swapping:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...light=swapping There's a nearly 200 page thread on LeBron cards in the same baskeball forum.

I get what you're saying about not being able to visually compare the case to other known cases. But the product is really irrelevant to the topic. By his own words, he said that he used the same method of authentication that he would use for any sports case. The tape was obviously not aged onto the case as he said it was. The fact that he couldn't tell the difference is very alarming, is it not?

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The fact that he couldn't tell the difference is very alarming, is it not?

Completely agree. Different flavors of incompetence in this example.

[Peter_Spaeth]

What turned out to be in the other boxes? Or are those being returned "intact" and someday this happens again with unopened boxes?

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What turned out to be in the other boxes? Or are those being returned "intact" and someday this happens again with unopened boxes?

They're all junk.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I also feel sad for the Pokémon community!

That Pokemon community must be huge if someone is going to pay that much for a case of those cards. What would happen if someone found a case of un-opened cigarette packs with tax stamps that indicate they all have baseball cards in them? I wonder how much that case would sell.

I guess I'm not a part of the Pokemon community because for the life of me I could not see putting out $3.5M for a case of those cards. I need to open my eyes and see what the heck else is happening in the collectibles world.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Completely agree. Different flavors of incompetence in this example.

Just spent about 2 hours down this rabbit hole including watching the video.


I'd call it greedy (though he admitted in 2020 he knew next to nothing about Pokemon, why turn it down when it can be a nice payday) and lazy/incompetent - What you highlighted "That he used the same procedure as with sports product" is F'n crazy!!! He looks at the way the tape is stuck to the box and the fact that there are striations in the label that match up with the striations in the cardboard it is stuck to, but doesn't check any of the fonts, the fact that a legit label is thermal printed (the fake one is not), etc !!!!??? As far as his "expertise" with packs etc. My $$ will stay in my pocket - fruit of the poisoned tree.
Apparently in the wake of this Steve has refused to authenticate any more pokemon products (Apparently in the Pokemon community there are known resealed pokemon packs in PSA slabs that Steve authenticated as well.
Allegedly in a conversation with someone in the Pokemon community (in 2020 I think) Steve stated he didn't think there was a way to tamper with foil packs!?

Just another example of all these "experts" we have laughing all the way to the bank, many times doing grossly insufficient due diligence, on a good day rendering opinions that are inconsistent and on a bad day that are entirely incompetent.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by hcv123

Just another example of all these "experts" we have laughing all the way to the bank, many times doing grossly insufficient due diligence, on a good day rendering opinions that are inconsistent and on a bad day that are entirely incompetent.

Absolutely. The hobby is now overly relying on third party assurances. Prices are reflecting that and the volume of errors and the millions of dollars in bad autos, game used, cards, etc is staggering.

IMO, had Logan Paul decided to not do the opening party on this case (again I feel it was for publicity purposes purely) I would guess it would have sold later for more assuming that Pokemon remained relevant.

The value in all of our authenticated items, legit or not accurately graded or not, is leaving them in their authenticated state. As long as the authentication company is still a going concern, the item will trade for more the next time...assuming the market is there for the collectible.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Originally Posted by hcv123

just spent about 2 hours down this rabbit hole including watching the video.


I'd call it greedy (though he admitted in 2020 he knew next to nothing about pokemon, why turn it down when it can be a nice payday) and lazy/incompetent - what you highlighted "that he used the same procedure as with sports product" is f'n crazy!!! He looks at the way the tape is stuck to the box and the fact that there are striations in the label that match up with the striations in the cardboard it is stuck to, but doesn't check any of the fonts, the fact that a legit label is thermal printed (the fake one is not), etc !!!!??? As far as his "expertise" with packs etc. My $$ will stay in my pocket - fruit of the poisoned tree.
Apparently in the wake of this steve has refused to authenticate any more pokemon products (apparently in the pokemon community there are known resealed pokemon packs in psa slabs that steve authenticated as well.
Allegedly in a conversation with someone in the pokemon community (in 2020 i think) steve stated he didn't think there was a way to tamper with foil packs!?

Just another example of all these "experts" we have laughing all the way to the bank, many times doing grossly insufficient due diligence, on a good day rendering opinions that are inconsistent and on a bad day that are entirely incompetent.

amen brother!

[Ronnie73]

I've watched multiple videos of wax that was certified and the cards were either packed with the wrong cards or there was so much moisture damage that none of the cards were good but the box sold as much as a box that could have had no moisture damage. Old wax and certain years in the 1990's-2000's that the cards stuck together, I would never take the chance.

[bn2cardz]

People that try and compare this BBCE blunder to a TPG like PSA's mistakes are missing the point. BBCE didn't grade an altered, but authentic, item. This was a fully fabricated box. This would be similar to PSA grading a fake Wagner, not just a trimmed authentic one.

BBCE is supposed to authenticate these items. They had this in hand and couldn't detect the fact it was fake, even though others, only seeing pictures of it, could tell it was fake.

The box wasn't right, the label wasn't the right size, the label barcode didn't match the number, the box tape didn't match the tape on other cases from the same company. Nothing was right and the "expert" still authenticated it.


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[Eric72]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

People that try and compare this BBCE blunder to a TPG like PSA's mistakes are missing the point. BBCE didn't grade an altered, but authentic, item. This was a fully fabricated box. This would be similar to PSA grading a fake Wagner, not just a trimmed authentic one.

BBCE is supposed to authenticate these items. They had this in hand and couldn't detect the fact it was fake, even though others, only seeing pictures of it, could tell it was fake.

The box wasn't right, the label wasn't the right size, the label barcode didn't match the number, the box tape didn't match the tape on other cases from the same company. Nothing was right and the "expert" still authenticated it.

+1

Spot on!

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by swarmee

...Many chrome autographed cards have been wiped off due to streaking/fading and either the player has signed them again or a forger has signed them...

Here's one that's currently being challenged at Goldin:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1502551 Card was graded about 5 years ago based on cert number.

So now the hobby is up in arms about a baseball card being resigned by a player? If I'm following this correctly, the theory is that they postulate (without providing any evidence mind you) that a card was originally signed by Pujols in 2001, but that the auto must have been either streaky or faded, so they wiped it off and had him sign it again.

Really? This is what we're down to crying about now? A card that is actually signed by Pujols is somehow fraudulent if it was signed twice? Really? LOL. These guys are hilarious.

[Orioles1954]

It’s also perhaps the most valuable box of any kind they’ve come across. This isn’t simply an “oh shucks, everyone makes mistakes” type deal.

[sbfinley]

It blows my mind that the every single corner of the collecting world is discussing this fake $3.5 million case and 95% of the chain of custody is only referred to by their XBox Live Gamertag....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

It blows my mind that the every single corner of the collecting world is discussing this fake $3.5 million case and 95% of the chain of custody is only referred to by their XBox Live Gamertag....

Real names are so archaic.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

people that try and compare this bbce blunder to a tpg like psa's mistakes are missing the point. Bbce didn't grade an altered, but authentic, item. This was a fully fabricated box. This would be similar to psa grading a fake wagner, not just a trimmed authentic one.

Bbce is supposed to authenticate these items. They had this in hand and couldn't detect the fact it was fake, even though others, only seeing pictures of it, could tell it was fake.

The box wasn't right, the label wasn't the right size, the label barcode didn't match the number, the box tape didn't match the tape on other cases from the same company. Nothing was right and the "expert" still authenticated it.

+ 26

[Snapolit1]

From the first day I got in the hobby I figured that the whole unopened pack, unopened case corner of the hobby was somewhere on the spectrum between shady as hell and a complete flaming crock of shit. Not in a million years do I believe someone can eyeball a pack or a case and conclusively determine anything. Wake up folks. Airlines have a hard time weeding out counterfeit plane parts. And you think it's hard for someone to surgically open a pack of cards and reseal it in a convincing way? C'mon. Same for cases. With the money that's at stake in breaking certain packs I am sure there are groups of people focusing on this fraud. Sophisticated people with the equipment to do it seamlessly.

Get to someone who works at one of the companies. Pay them $5,000 for a large sheet of pristine wrapping used for cases. Maybe a handful of stickers. Problem solved.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

So now the hobby is up in arms about a baseball card being resigned by a player? If I'm following this correctly, the theory is that they postulate (without providing any evidence mind you) that a card was originally signed by Pujols in 2001, but that the auto must have been either streaky or faded, so they wiped it off and had him sign it again.

Really? This is what we're down to crying about now? A card that is actually signed by Pujols is somehow fraudulent if it was signed twice? Really? LOL. These guys are hilarious.

If the card is not as it was released by the factory, but is being represented as such, why is it so hard to see that is fraudulent? I think the hobby clearly differentiates between factory released autos and cards people get signed. Put another way, WHY did someone wipe it (if they did), get it resigned, and try to pass it off as an original factory card? To make more money by the deception is why.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the card is not as it was released by the factory, but is being represented as such, why is it so hard to see that is fraudulent? I think the hobby clearly differentiates between factory released autos and cards people get signed. Put another way, WHY did someone wipe it (if they did), get it resigned, and try to pass it off as an original factory card? To make more money by the deception is why.

Apparently Anything and Everything is acceptable in this industry, it’s ok do what you want.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Apparently Anything and Everything is acceptable in this industry, it’s ok do what you want.

If I buy an expensive Pujols RC that I think was a factory release and PSA says it's a factory release, I'm not going to be at all happy if I find out he signed it 10 years later and the original autograph was removed. Am I out of touch?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I buy an expensive Pujols RC that I think was a factory release and PSA says it's a factory release, I'm not going to be at all happy if I find out he signed it 10 years later and the original autograph was removed. Am I out of touch?

Snowman would say you are out of touch. Why complain it’s in PSA slab you should be happy with what it’s worth. You’re a dinosaur.
I don’t like it but the masses prob don’t care, know, and or want to know they only care it it’s slabbed.
No line can’t be crossed to get a card in a holder. It’s a shame I feel your pain.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Snowman would say you are out of touch. Why complain it’s in PSA slab you should be happy with what it’s worth. You’re a dinosaur.
I don’t like it but the masses prob don’t care, know, and or want to know they only care it it’s slabbed.
No line can’t be crossed to get a card in a holder. It’s a shame I feel your pain.

From my viewpoint, it's not about whether or not it's "slabbed" that makes it ok, but the fact that PUJOLS SIGNED IT that makes it ok. If someone wiped the previous auto and forged it, then sure, by all means, that's worth complaining about. But a Pujols RC auto card, signed by Pujols (regardless of when) is just not something I think is worth wasting one's energy on (and I'd wager good money that the vast majority of the hobby agrees).

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I buy an expensive Pujols RC that I think was a factory release and PSA says it's a factory release, I'm not going to be at all happy if I find out he signed it 10 years later and the original autograph was removed. Am I out of touch?

No, you’re not out of touch. You’re a collector, one with higher standards.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Eric72

No, you’re not out of touch. You’re a collector, one with higher standards.

I love all these subtle passive-aggressive jabs you guys take around here. It's like you guys have a secret virtue-signaling competition or something.

"My morals are just higher than yours if you think soaking a card in water to remove the scrapbook paper from the back is acceptable" or "Clearly, you have character flaws if you think a card SIGNED BY ALBERT F***ING PUJOLS and authenticated as such does not constitute fraud, even if he signed it twice."

What difference does it make, even if he signed it 47 times until he had a signature that he was happy with? It's still an Albert Pujols signed RC.

I swear, you guys will bi**h about anything and everything.